Yet another ridiculous comment on rape by a politician - say it ain't so!

[Alceste]

NYU > Student Health Center > Health Promotion & Wellness Services > Health Topics > National Statistics about Sexual Violence on College Campuses

excerpts:

• One in 4 college-aged women report experiences that meet the legal definitions of rape or attempted rape.
• One in 5 college women are raped during their college years.
• Most survivors of sexual assaults are full-time students. Approximately one-third of them are first year students between 17-19 years old.
• <...>
• In a recent study by the National Institute of Justice, survivors of rape knew their attackers as:
  • Fellow classmates (35.5%)
  • Friends (34.2%)
  • Boyfriends or ex-boyfriends (23.7%)
  • Acquaintances (2.6%)
• One in 12 college men admitted to committing acts that met the legal definition of rape.
• More than one in 5 men report "becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex," even though the woman did not consent.
• 35% of men report some likelihood that they would rape if they could be assured they wouldn't be caught or punished.
• 81% of on-campus and 84% of off-campus sexual assaults are not reported to the police.

Let's see, would you call a woman paranoid for wanting to carry a concealed weapon when the statistics say that 1 in 5 women are raped on campus during their college years? How about when 35% of the men say they would rape if they could get away with it? And you call me paranoid when faced with these stats? Unbelievable!

Clear communication, well established boundaries and avoiding risky situations (ie. Not passing out at parties) is pretty effective. How often do women shoot somebody to stop a rape? My guess is practically never, even where they are allowed to hide guns somewhere on their person.

 

[crossfire]

Clear communication, well established boundaries and avoiding risky situations (ie. Not passing out at parties) is pretty effective. How often do women shoot somebody to stop a rape? My guess is practically never, even where they are allowed to hide guns somewhere on their person.

Here's a Dateline NBC story you might want to read.
Rape on campus - Dateline NBC | NBC News

 

[Alceste]

Here's a Dateline NBC story you might want to read.
Rape on campus - Dateline NBC | NBC News

sounds like those universities need to start taking rape more seriously.

Also illustrates why women never seem to shoot rapists. Take the last case - she knew the guy, they'd slept together before, she went with him to his room, they were kissing, and then she wanted to stop and he became aggressive. At what point do you think she should have shot him?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I would be interested to know if the women on RF would feel safer knowing that all the guys on campus, including the suspicious drunk frat guy following them late at night, can legally carry a concealed firearm.

A level playing field would be preferable to being defenseless, helpless and at their mercy.

I was actually asking them women on RF, but as long as you're answering, do you really mean to say that an unarmed woman is "defenseless, helpless and at their mercy"? That appears to be a mirror image of the comments about women in the OP, and equally off base.

 

[Alceste]

I was actually asking them women on RF, but as long as you're answering, do you really mean to say that an unarmed woman is "defenseless, helpless and at their mercy"? That appears to be a mirror image of the comments about women in the OP, and equally off base.

I agree. I found it pretty offensive. I've kicked a guy in the junk before. It was not difficult, and he was completely incapacitated.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There is a reason it was called the 'Wild West' and it wasn't because cowboys had too few guns with which to protect themselves. I am not against 2nd Amendment rights but I shudder to think how many stupid fights at alcohol-infused college parties would have escalated into the gunfight at the O.K. Corral if concealed weapons were allowed on campus.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The way some folks in this thread equate shooting and probably killing another human being with putting out an accidental fire is kind of disturbing, frankly. Also, there is a massive gap between the likelihood of fire and the likelihood of being in a position where you need to shoot somebody.

It's just game theory, Alceste. If you live in a relatively dangerous city then being legally armed against criminals might outweigh the risks of accidental shooting or the escalation of fights caused by people being armed. On the other hand, if you live on a typical Mid Western college campus, the latter danger almost certainly outweighs the former and that is why by and large, the stakeholders--students, parents, professors, campus staff and police--oppose concealed carry on campuses. And that is what this thread is about.

But in general this does not have to be a one-size-fits all debate. Different sets of risks call for different solutions.

 

[Alceste]

It's just game theory, Alceste. If you live in a relatively dangerous city then being legally armed against criminals might outweigh the risks of accidental shooting or the escalation of fights caused by people being armed. On the other hand, if you live on a typical Mid Western college campus, the latter danger almost certainly outweighs the former and that is why by and large, the stakeholders--students, parents, professors, campus staff and police--oppose concealed carry on campuses. And that is what this thread is about.

But in general this does not have to be a one-size-fits all debate. Different sets of risks call for different solutions.

I've lived in four of the largest cities in Canada and traveled all over the world and never yet encountered a neighborhood whet I felt so unsafe I thought I might need a weapon to protect myself. That's why I wonder, is the US really much more dangerous than Canada, Europe, Australia, Cuba, Guatemala, etc. or are Americans simply more fearful of being attacked?

 

[crossfire]

Actually his argument was that people may misidentify an assailant and shoot them if concealed carry is allowed on campuses. Not just women. Therefore, no one should be allowed to conceal carry on campuses. The snippet of comments presented in the OP, as sloppy as they admittedly are, were taken out of this larger context, giving the false impression that he is specifically arguing against women carrying, whereas concealed guns in the hands of male college students are safe.

I would be interested to know if the women on RF would feel safer knowing that all the guys on campus, including the suspicious drunk frat guy following them late at night, can legally carry a concealed firearm.

If someone can qualify for a concealed weapons permit, then yes, I would feel safer if more people carried weapons.

I was actually asking them women on RF, but as long as you're answering, do you really mean to say that an unarmed woman is "defenseless, helpless and at their mercy"? That appears to be a mirror image of the comments about women in the OP, and equally off base.

I'm all for a more level playing field, as well. True egalitarianism. It would encourage people to think twice before they act, show more respect for others, and learn to control themselves.

 

[Father Heathen]

I do carry a socket wrench set, a first aid kit, spare tire, and few few other items that might make sense to a rational person.

So you live in constant fear of cuts, bruises, and flat tires? That's no way to live.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I've lived in four of the largest cities in Canada and traveled all over the world and never yet encountered a neighborhood whet I felt so unsafe I thought I might need a weapon to protect myself. That's why I wonder, is the US really much more dangerous than Canada, Europe, Australia, Cuba, Guatemala, etc. or are Americans simply more fearful of being attacked?

Some areas of some cities are pretty dangerous to live in. At least in my part of the world, East St. Louis - which is notorious - is 6 miles from my house. I drive through it often to get to the Poplar Street Bridge when I head into St. Louis, MO. And I know where to drive, and where exactly NOT to drive unless I want to find myself in the middle of a rumble.

Note to anybody: if you're heading down a road and suddenly see about 100 feet ahead of you 20 shirtless men on one side of the road yelling and pointing fingers at about 20 shirtless men on the other side of the road....and some men are holding wrenches while others are holding pipes and 2X4's.....just turn around and drive back from where you came with your head down. I found myself in that situation at nightfall after attending a Katherine Dunham dance class at one of the local centers in East St Louis.

I'd say that it's best to know exactly where you're at and to be aware. Some neighborhoods rarely see violent crime. Around these parts, where some neighborhoods are very economically depressed and where underground weapons, drugs, and prostitution rings are common, it's happening every day or every other day.

 

[Apex]

There is a reason it was called the 'Wild West' and it wasn't because cowboys had too few guns with which to protect themselves. I am not against 2nd Amendment rights but I shudder to think how many stupid fights at alcohol-infused college parties would have escalated into the gunfight at the O.K. Corral if concealed weapons were allowed on campus.

First, your comparison is faulty since most college parties happen off campus, where CCW is legal! And so far, we haven't had any Wild West shoot outs because of that.

Second, 30 campuses in Utah, along with some in Colorado and Virginia allow CCW, and have allowed it as far back as 1995 for some cases. Last I checked, none of those campuses represented the Wild West either.

Third, before you make any more ludicrous comparisons based on nothing but knee jerk reactions, at least familiarize yourself with the counter arguments first:
Common Arguments Against Campus Carry

 

[Alceste]

Some areas of some cities are pretty dangerous to live in. At least in my part of the world, East St. Louis - which is notorious - is 6 miles from my house. I drive through it often to get to the Poplar Street Bridge when I head into St. Louis, MO. And I know where to drive, and where exactly NOT to drive unless I want to find myself in the middle of a rumble.

Note to anybody: if you're heading down a road and suddenly see about 100 feet ahead of you 20 shirtless men on one side of the road yelling and pointing fingers at about 20 shirtless men on the other side of the road....and some men are holding wrenches while others are holding pipes and 2X4's.....just turn around and drive back from where you came with your head down. I found myself in that situation at nightfall after attending a Katherine Dunham dance class at one of the local centers in East St Louis.

I'd say that it's best to know exactly where you're at and to be aware. Some neighborhoods rarely see violent crime. Around these parts, where some neighborhoods are very economically depressed and where underground weapons, drugs, and prostitution rings are common, it's happening every day or every other day.

Thanks for the honest answer, mystic. it certainly sounds like some neighborhoods are more dangerous than anywhere I've been, and I've been to Belfast in marching season.

 

[fantome profane]

So you live in constant fear of cuts, bruises, and flat tires? That's no way to live.

I think there is a difference between thinking that accidents happen and thinking that people are going to attack you.

 

[Apex]

I think there is a difference between thinking that accidents happen and thinking that people are going to attack you.

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who are attacked each year.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thanks for the honest answer, mystic. it certainly sounds like some neighborhoods are more dangerous than anywhere I've been, and I've been to Belfast in marching season.

Come visit, and with some folks you will get immediate street cred.

Well, it's not the Congo or anything, but it has a reputation. In some areas - even close to one of the projects I drive by - the reputation surpasses the reality. But some areas are so dangerous you couldn't pay me $10,000 to go through it.

I thought it was funny when people would gawk at when I lived in NYC, and I'd take the subway train by myself at 2am from the Bronx. They'd say, "Are you NUTS?" And I'd answer, "I lived next to East St. Louis...this is nothing!"

 

[fantome profane]

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people who are attacked each year.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I am saying it is different. Being afraid of fire, or a car accident is different than being afraid of people. It has a much different and more profound effect on you when you start looking at any random person as a potential threat.

And I don't have to tell this to people who have been attacked. They already know this.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

So you live in constant fear of cuts, bruises, and flat tires? That's no way to live.

I don't think it is the same thing. Polls show that while the Crime rate is going down in America many of us think it is getting worse.

I did work In East Palo Alto when it was the murder capital of the united states. I was in Gang members homes. Even threatening them with their kids being taken a way from them. I never needed a Gun. Never wanted one. I also lived in very bad areas at times.

When I was backpacking alone in a high brown bear area in Alaska. I did borrow a shot gun. I was worried that I would be full of fear and bears could smell it. It is a cause of attack. After seeing one up close 30 yards. I lost the worry and next time I did not bring it with me.

 

[Apex]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I am saying it is different. Being afraid of fire, or a car accident is different than being afraid of people. It has a much different and more profound effect on you when you start looking at any random person as a potential threat.

And I don't have to tell this to people who have been attacked. They already know this.

I am not sure I know anyone with a CCW who look at random people as threats.

 

[Alceste]

I think there is a difference between thinking that accidents happen and thinking that people are going to attack you.

I agree! There's also a big difference between being prepared to put out a fire or fix a flat tire and being prepared to shoot somebody.

Come visit, and with some folks you will get immediate street cred.

Well, it's not the Congo or anything, but it has a reputation. In some areas - even close to one of the projects I drive by - the reputation surpasses the reality. But some areas are so dangerous you couldn't pay me $10,000 to go through it.

I thought it was funny when people would gawk at when I lived in NYC, and I'd take the subway train by myself at 2am from the Bronx. They'd say, "Are you NUTS?" And I'd answer, "I lived next to East St. Louis...this is nothing!"

I lived on the most notorious block in Canada - Main and Hastings in Vancouver. Full of prostitutes, drug addicts, dealers, homeless people and other broken people and had no fear of walking alone at night. That was during the time Robert Pickton was murdering prostitutes. It isn't a nice place to live, but it's really not that dangerous unless you are putting yourself in danger, for example by prostitution and doing business with street dealers.

I don't think it is the same thing. Polls show that while the Crime rate is going down in America many of us think it is getting worse.

I did work In East Palo Alto when it was the murder capital of the united states. I was in Gang members homes. Even threatening them with their kids being taken a way from them. I never needed a Gun. Never wanted one. I also lived in very bad areas at times.

When I was backpacking alone in a high brown bear area in Alaska. I did borrow a shot gun. I was worried that I would be full of fear and bears could smell it. It is a cause of attack. After seeing one up close 30 yards. I lost the worry and next time I did not bring it with me.

I sing songs to let the bears know I'm coming. They're generally not aggressive unless you surprise them. It's quite a thrill to see them up close, though, isn't it! Feels kind of like a lucky narrow escape, even though the likelihood of attack is quite low.