You are a bad Christian

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Are you saying that True Christianity is Immoral?

I find Christian morals lacking relative to humanistic values.

Do you consider the Ten Commandments Moral?

Are those Jehovah's highest priorities listed first? If so, that indicates a problem with values. Worshiping gods not a moral act. Prohibiting worshiping a false idol is unimportant, as is not resting on the Sabbath. And I don't even know what honoring parents mean, but same thing whatever it means - it's not one of the top ten moral imperatives in my system of morals.

I think he’s talkin bout the Christian belief that Homosexuality is a sin. He doesn’t realize that one can believe that and still have respect for Gay people.

That's just the start of it. All of the Christian bigotries (atheophobia, homophobia, misogyny) are immoral. Biblical anti-intellectualism is immoral. Hell theology is immoral and pretty much puts to the lie claims that this deity is loving, just, or merciful. Jesus gives a lot of bad advice. Lusting isn't immoral, although acting on it sometimes is. But merely finding a woman sexually appealing is not immoral nor morally equivalent to adultery, which is only immoral if betrayal is involved, but not when it's consensual (and I am including the spouse in that whether he or she is participating or not). It's never right to cut off a hand or pluck out an eye. And more.

Regarding your last comment, no, you do not have respect for gay people if you accept the biblical judgment that gays are an abomination in the eyes of a good god who will severely punish them for acceding to their sexual preferences if they don't suit Jehovah. You fool yourselves when you claim to hate the sin but not the sinner. The most you can offer a person you feel offends your god is to be polite to them, not to respect them.

 

[Jimmy]

I find Christian morals lacking relative to humanistic values.

Are those Jehovah's highest priorities listed first? If so, that indicates a problem with values. Worshiping gods not a moral act. Prohibiting worshiping a false idol is unimportant, as is not resting on the Sabbath. And I don't even know what honoring parents mean, but same thing whatever it means - it's not one of the top ten moral imperatives in my system of morals.

That's just the start of it. All of the Christian bigotries (atheophobia, homophobia, misogyny) are immoral. Biblical anti-intellectualism is immoral. Hell theology is immoral and pretty much puts to the lie claims that this deity is loving, just, or merciful. Jesus gives a lot of bad advice. Lusting isn't immoral, although acting on it sometimes is. But merely finding a woman sexually appealing is not immoral nor morally equivalent to adultery, which is only immoral if betrayal is involved, but not when it's consensual (and I am including the spouse in that whether he or she is participating or not). It's never right to cut off a hand or pluck out an eye. And more.

Regarding your last comment, no, you do not have respect for gay people if you accept the biblical judgment that gays are an abomination in the eyes of a good god who will severely punish them for acceding to their sexual preferences if they don't suit Jehovah. You fool yourselves when you claim to hate the sin but not the sinner. The most you can offer a person you feel offends your god is to be polite to them, not to respect them.

Ones personal beliefs as to what’s right and wrong has no bearing over how they treat people. It’s the same thing as being personally against abortion but voting pro choice. Life isn’t black and white. There’s shades of gray.

 

[Elihoenai]

I find Christian morals lacking relative to humanistic values.

What are Humanistic Values?

Are those Jehovah's highest priorities listed first? If so, that indicates a problem with values. Worshiping gods not a moral act. Prohibiting worshiping a false idol is unimportant, as is not resting on the Sabbath. And I don't even know what honoring parents mean, but same thing whatever it means - it's not one of the top ten moral imperatives in my system of morals.

Evidently this is from the Perspective of a Heathen Atheist with their own Moral System.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Ones personal beliefs as to what’s right and wrong has no bearing over how they treat people.

I'm trying to figure a meaning for those words that makes sense. My personal moral code very much affects how I view and treat people. Maybe you meant that you smile and are polite to everybody no matter how they behave.

It’s the same thing as being personally against abortion but voting pro choice.

Then that's an example of a behavior motivated by a belief which has a bearing on how you treat them.

What are Humanistic Values?

There are several differences between Christian and Humanist values - places where they teach opposite ideas. The main areas where the two part ways is humanism's exalting reason and evidence over faith, and advocating for a pluralistic, mutually tolerant society that enables and empowers the greatest number of its members to have the greatest opportunity to pursue happiness as they understand it. Affirmations of Humanism | Free Inquiry

Evidently this is from the Perspective of a Heathen Atheist with their own Moral System.

That was the perspective of this agnostic atheist and humanist, which is typical among humanists. The first four commandments seem meaningless to an atheist. If you asked me for a list of the top ten moral imperatives, there would be almost no overlap apart from the stealing and lying part. Mind your parents doesn't make the list. Nor does take a day off every week.

That's the difference between a moral system received from ancients with a different understanding and different concerns, and one developed de novo by applying reason to empathy (the Golden Rule) - so called rational ethics. None of that results, nor most of the sexual proscriptions, nor the bigotries like atheophobia, homophobia, and misogyny.

 

[Jimmy]

I'm trying to figure a meaning for those words that makes sense. My personal moral code very much affects how I view and treat people. Maybe you meant that you smile and are polite to everybody no matter how they behave.

Then that's an example of a behavior motivated by a belief which has a bearing on how you treat them.

There are several differences between Christian and Humanist values - places where they teach opposite ideas. The main areas where the two part ways is humanism's exalting reason and evidence over faith, and advocating for a pluralistic, mutually tolerant society that enables and empowers the greatest number of its members to have the greatest opportunity to pursue happiness as they understand it. Affirmations of Humanism | Free Inquiry

That was the perspective of this agnostic atheist and humanist, which is typical among humanists. The first four commandments seem meaningless to an atheist. If you asked me for a list of the top ten moral imperatives, there would be almost no overlap apart from the stealing and lying part. Mind your parents doesn't make the list. Nor does take a day off every week.

That's the difference between a moral system received from ancients with a different understanding and different concerns, and one developed de novo by applying reason to empathy (the Golden Rule) - so called rational ethics. None of that results, nor most of the sexual proscriptions, nor the bigotries like atheophobia, homophobia, and misogyny.

A bearing? Wouldn’t this ‘bearing’ be voting pro life? You’re making this convoluted and complex. Keep it simple

 

[Kenny]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

Ditto:

#2

 

[Brian2]

We are in the 'Biblical debates' section, which means the material is whatever the books in the bible have in them.

You can be a true Christian and not ever know what a bible is. The bible says so. However you cannot be a true Christian without practicing Christianity. It also says that. I think that is fairly easy to look up in scripture.

So you might become a true Christian by encountering other true Christians and deciding that you want to live like they do. That would be sufficient.

There should be something in there about belief in Jesus surely.

 

[Muffled]

I think he’s talkin bout the Christian belief that Homosexuality is a sin. He doesn’t realize that one can believe that and still have respect for Gay people. A lot of people mix that up imo

I believe that would make him a person who believes bad things are good and good things are bad.

 

[Brickjectivity]

There should be something in there about belief in Jesus surely.

Let me revisit Hebrews 11:6 the most misunderstood and overemphasized scripture in the history of the world.

[Heb 11:6 NIV] 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.​

Notice how it seems to claim that we have to be believers above all. Belief appears *so* important here. What a coup for the believer!

Understand that faithfulness is the intent of the writer, not 'Belief'. He begins verse 1: "Faithfulness (my interpretation) is the evidence of things not seen..." and this is true. How do you know who is trustworthy? By their actions. Pay attention to what I do, not to mere words. How is a bank manager trusted? Why do we use credit scores? These are measures based upon faithfulness. It is a real thing which people rely upon. Belief? No. We don't rely upon empty belief. It must be backed with action.

Part of the misunderstanding of this comes as a result of language drift. The English language used to have 'Faithfulness' in its word 'Faith'. People would talk about good faith and in faith, because the word was about faithfulness. Not so much today, and so with the changing of this word has arisen (aided by negligent congregations) a misunderstanding about scripture. They say all Jesus wants you to do is believe. Just believe. You go up to the front of their church and kneel and say a few words of belief, and then they'll say you have faith. This is not from the bible though. Belief is important if we choose to believe this world is fading and is being replaced (through faithfulness) with another one. We choose to believe this, and we believe it because of the faithfulness we see. That is our evidence. There is a lot in scripture about faithfulness which gets softened and smushed into belief in modern pamphlets, prayers and speeches. Faithfulness is the guarantee of things not seen -- not belief.

Imagine if a judge were to accept belief as evidence. It would make no sense. Neither does it make sense the way that the word faith is being used today. It is inconsistent with the intent of the bible's authors. Call that 'Unbiblical', because it is.

 

[syo]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

 

[Jimmy]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

Easily. By not taking Christianity so seriously.

 

[InChrist]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

What do you mean by “practice”? I don’t consider biblical Christianity to be a practice.

 

[Brian2]

Let me revisit Hebrews 11:6 the most misunderstood and overemphasized scripture in the history of the world.

[Heb 11:6 NIV] 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.​

Notice how it seems to claim that we have to be believers above all. Belief appears *so* important here. What a coup for the believer!

Understand that faithfulness is the intent of the writer, not 'Belief'. He begins verse 1: "Faithfulness (my interpretation) is the evidence of things not seen..." and this is true. How do you know who is trustworthy? By their actions. Pay attention to what I do, not to mere words. How is a bank manager trusted? Why do we use credit scores? These are measures based upon faithfulness. It is a real thing which people rely upon. Belief? No. We don't rely upon empty belief. It must be backed with action.

Part of the misunderstanding of this comes as a result of language drift. The English language used to have 'Faithfulness' in its word 'Faith'. People would talk about good faith and in faith, because the word was about faithfulness. Not so much today, and so with the changing of this word has arisen (aided by negligent congregations) a misunderstanding about scripture. They say all Jesus wants you to do is believe. Just believe. You go up to the front of their church and kneel and say a few words of belief, and then they'll say you have faith. This is not from the bible though. Belief is important if we choose to believe this world is fading and is being replaced (through faithfulness) with another one. We choose to believe this, and we believe it because of the faithfulness we see. That is our evidence. There is a lot in scripture about faithfulness which gets softened and smushed into belief in modern pamphlets, prayers and speeches. Faithfulness is the guarantee of things not seen -- not belief.

Imagine if a judge were to accept belief as evidence. It would make no sense. Neither does it make sense the way that the word faith is being used today. It is inconsistent with the intent of the bible's authors. Call that 'Unbiblical', because it is.

I would say that it is belief and faith which leads us to being faithful. Our works (faithfulness) show our faith, which is not seen apart from our works.
That sort of sounds like what you are saying but you seem to think that we can drop the belief/faith part and just do the works.
But there needs to be something that we are being faithful to.
Then again those works are works of love and love is greater than faith.

 

[Kenny]

I would say that it is belief and faith which leads us to being faithful. Our works (faithfulness) show our faith, which is not seen apart from our works.
That sort of sounds like what you are saying but you seem to think that we can drop the belief/faith part and just do the works.
But there needs to be something that we are being faithful to.
Then again those works are works of love and love is greater than faith.

But isn't faith motivated, energized and working through love?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I would say that it is belief and faith which leads us to being faithful. Our works (faithfulness) show our faith, which is not seen apart from our works.
That sort of sounds like what you are saying but you seem to think that we can drop the belief/faith part and just do the works.
But there needs to be something that we are being faithful to.
Then again those works are works of love and love is greater than faith.

Just commenting on what I think the scripture says about it. I hear you saying there needs to be something we are faithful to, and there is. It is agape, and this is the rare bridge that starts with a string thrown across a chasm. That string is used to build a structure. Another analogy is a transparent bridge. You cannot see it until someone kicks sand onto it. We can look and see where others have trod.

 

[Brian2]

Just commenting on what I think the scripture says about it. I hear you saying there needs to be something we are faithful to, and there is. It is agape, and this is the rare bridge that starts with a string thrown across a chasm. That string is used to build a structure. Another analogy is a transparent bridge. You cannot see it until someone kicks sand onto it. We can look and see where others have trod.

That's a bit symbolic and vague for me, but agape seems to be a bridge that anyone can be on even if they don't have a head belief in the Bible.
And of course for someone with faith, the faith works through love or you may as well not have it imo.
But works is not the was we are saved even if it shows our faith and is the way we are faithful.
Some people cannot do much at all in the way of works of course but God still loves them and understands each person through and through even when we condemn ourselves.

 

[Brian2]

But isn't faith motivated, energized and working through love?

Well we are told that faith works through love but I would have thought that it is love that is motivated and energized through faith, and of course through the Spirit who dwells in us through faith.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But isn't faith motivated, energized and working through love?

Faith without works is dead

 

[Kenny]

Well we are told that faith works through love but I would have thought that it is love that is motivated and energized through faith, and of course through the Spirit who dwells in us through faith.

I guess it just depends on how one uses it.

There is a faith that moves mountains but has no love that amounts to nothing.
It is when faith is motivated, energized and directed by the Spirit if Love that dwells in us that has the power to impact and to create God's Kingdom and dominion

 

[Kenny]

Faith without works is dead

You won't hear me denying that!