You Cannot Know God.

[Desert Snake]

Are you typing on a non-standard keyboard? The /o are messing with my eyes when reading your posts.

yes, different language, its back to normal

 

[tjgillies]

Are you typing on a non-standard keyboard? The /o are messing with my eyes when reading your posts.

I've been enjoying them. They add a bit of character. (No pun intended)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we assume that , at some level here, i agree with you, this is off topic from my comments to your assessment of Scripture. I am critisizing your comments on Scripture, and your deity idea presented ,-in the context of Scripture, earlier in the thread. I really donøt care about the idea that some one who is not a believer --Bible - , would not øøneedøø the Bible -theoretically. I find this this idea to a non+argument, and presumptuous that said person would not need the Scripture. This becomes the argument that basically is a refutation of anything you disagree with religiously,, itøs not a øørealløø argument.

I was trying to come at this objectively not through my personal belief. Think about it...both how I think of god and my comment about scripture.

If god (the god of abraham) is everywhere and he is the holy Spirit and the Christ, why would he not be in Christians hearts?

Even more so, if scripture is saying that to help others is to help him and to be among each other (peers) lets him appear, why would any logical person religious or not assume this means anything less than what it says: Christ is not just in the words of scripture (what the message is written on), but the Word of scripture--the message itself.

From a purely objective point of view, it seems some christians are mixing up the Messenger, Message, and what the Message is written on.

The Messenger (the Source) is God the Father Himself.
The Message from the Source is Christ
What the message is written on (or translated through) is the actual words-symbols with meaning--passed down in many translations in many ways-the Bible.

Sacred, Yes.
God's words, yes.
Important, of course.

I would think the Bible is no more God than the Eucharist is Jesus Christ. One is a leather book with paper, the other is a waffer and wine. Pinch a priest and ask him if he sees Jesus' body, hair, and skin in the Eucahrist, he'd say no. Pinch a protestant Christian and ask the same about the Bible, what would he say?

This is obviously confusing me. It's like saying "I am a pianist because I cherish and believe in my piano book" when painist learn about playing the piano through a book. However, the experience of playing the piano (personal experience) far bypasses what the notes actually says.

--
I don't believe you need to be a believer to understand the nature of religions. Especially with Christianity where I should know it inside and out (literally) where half my apartment think I'm a christian because I'm familar with the terms and understand religiou feelings etc. I am literally a religiou gypsy. When I do undersstand the nature of a religion, I see the connection and can speak of it as if I am an inherit of that faith. Like someone who is native English trying to speak Spanish. There will be accents, but still the is understood.

Unfortuantely, that barrier of "if you don't identify like us you wont understand us" is not in many religions I come accross other than Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

Remember, simply knowing He exists without using The Bible does not mean you actually "know Him."

That's what get many people in trouble, no education on how to read the bible in context.

 

[outhouse]

Let me know when you are ready to share your knowledge about God.

Which one do you follow?


El?
El Shaddia?
El Elyon?

Yahweh?

Baal?

Asherah?

Jesus?

Isho?

Ghost?

 

[tjgillies]

That's what get many people in trouble, no education on how to read the bible in context.

One thing I appreciate about the Baha'i faith is that we had 3 different people interpret our writings with the station of infallibility. It has greatly reduced the amount of conflict we have based on "context".

 

[tjgillies]

Which one do you follow?


El?
El Shaddia?
El Elyon?

Yahweh?

Baal?

Asherah?

Jesus?

Isho?

Ghost?

All the above for me. Except Jesus is a manifestation

 

[Desert Snake]

I was trying to come at this objectively not through my personal belief. Think about it...both how I think of god and my comment about scripture.

If god (the god of abraham) is everywhere and he is the holy Spirit and the Christ, why would he not be in Christians hearts?

Even more so, if scripture is saying that to help others is to help him and to be among each other (peers) lets him appear, why would any logical person religious or not assume this means anything less than what it says: Christ is not just in the words of scripture (what the message is written on), but the Word of scripture--the message itself.

From a purely objective point of view, it seems some christians are mixing up the Messenger, Message, and what the Message is written on.

The Messenger (the Source) is God the Father Himself.
The Message from the Source is Christ
What the message is written on (or translated through) is the actual words-symbols with meaning--passed down in many translations in many ways-the Bible.

Sacred, Yes.
God's words, yes.
Important, of course.

I would think the Bible is no more God than the Eucharist is Jesus Christ. One is a leather book with paper, the other is a waffer and wine. Pinch a priest and ask him if he sees Jesus' body, hair, and skin in the Eucahrist, he'd say no. Pinch a protestant Christian and ask the same about the Bible, what would he say?

This is obviously confusing me. It's like saying "I am a pianist because I cherish and believe in my piano book" when painist learn about playing the piano through a book. However, the experience of playing the piano (personal experience) far bypasses what the notes actually says.

--
I don't believe you need to be a believer to understand the nature of religions. Especially with Christianity where I should know it inside and out (literally) where half my apartment think I'm a christian because I'm familar with the terms and understand religiou feelings etc. I am literally a religiou gypsy. When I do undersstand the nature of a religion, I see the connection and can speak of it as if I am an inherit of that faith. Like someone who is native English trying to speak Spanish. There will be accents, but still the is understood.

Unfortuantely, that barrier of "if you don't identify like us you wont understand us" is not in many religions I come accross other than Christianity.

The issue here, for me, here, is that I am sure that at least part of Scripture is literally divine. This means that, the Bible is more than a ''sign post'', pointing the way to 'God'', or for Christians, God/Jesus Esu. The Bible being divine, then means that one cannot separate it from the Belief, even though the belief can exist outside of the Bible. //Of course it can. /

How that relates to the nature of Deity, in other cultures, may or not apply to the written Scripture itself, yet because; the Scripture is divinely part of the Theistic belief for Xians, and of course by inference, to Jews, to a similar or same, or at least theoretically , parallel extent (even though their Scripture differs in emphasis and book adherence). It then makes no sense to separate the Scripture from the Belief.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The issue here, for me, here, is that I am sure that at least part of Scripture is literally divine. This means that, the Bible is more than a ''sign post'', pointing the way to 'God'', or for Christians, God/Jesus Esu. The Bible being divine, then means that one cannot separate it from the Belief, even though the belief can exist outside of the Bible. //Of course it can. /

How that relates to the nature of Deity, in other cultures, may or not apply to the written Scripture itself, yet because; the Scripture is divinely part of the Theistic belief for Xians, and of course by inference, to Jews, to a similar or same, or at least theoretically , parallel extent (even though their Scripture differs in emphasis and book adherence).

Maybe I can kind of understand it. Ima use my religion as a mirror.

The Gohonzon (like the Bible) is a scroll (the Book) and on this scroll (or written in..) is the Buddha Dharma (the Message). When Nichiren Buddhists (I don't share that identying mark) come in front of the Dharma and chant, I personally use it as a meditational and inspirational way of looking into what the Dharma actually says--look to oneself not a scroll. That is what a Message and a Messanger, a Son does... The messanger's role is not the point to himself but the person or teaching he or the sutra represents or is in the image of.

On that note, we can't separate the scroll (the Bible) from the Dharma (the scripture) because our belief IS the Dharma.

There is a huge difference between worshiping the Dharma within oneself and (for me) my environment and worshiping the actual scroll and teachings as if they possess Buddhahood and not myself.

Likewise, there is a huge difference from worshiping Christ within oneself via the Holy Spirit and with others, the Church (body of believers) and worshiping the actual Bible-the leather bounded book with red and black ink...because the teachings, the truth, I would assume for any Christian would not be in th Bible (as Nichiren Buddhist a scroll) but the actual teaching--Christ (or Dharma) itself.

I know in both cases they are not inseparable. I'm not saying that one is not more important than the other. I'm repeating that even Christ told his believers that they are looking at scriptures to find truth but the truth is in Him-the Messager. That's the only way a Christian can get back with the Message/Source is to go through the person who carries it, the Messanger...

that messanger is not the NIV or the KJV. It's not the Hebrew verses Vulgate text.

It's in Christ.

I dont see how that is misinterpreted.

Where am I going wrong at?

 

[outhouse]

All the above for me. Except Jesus is a manifestation

I see him as a typical Galilean peasant who was trained under John

 

[Desert Snake]

Maybe I can kind of understand it. Ima use my religion as a mirror.

The Gohonzon (like the Bible) is a scroll (the Book) and on this scroll (or written in..) is the Buddha Dharma (the Message). When Nichiren Buddhists (I don't share that identying mark) come in front of the Dharma and chant, I personally use it as a meditational and inspirational way of looking into what the Dharma actually says--look to oneself not a scroll. That is what a Message and a Messanger, a Son does... The messanger's role is not the point to himself but the person or teaching he or the sutra represents or is in the image of.

On that note, we can't separate the scroll (the Bible) from the Dharma (the scripture) because our belief IS the Dharma.

There is a huge difference between worshiping the Dharma within oneself and (for me) my environment and worshiping the actual scroll and teachings as if they possess Buddhahood and not myself.

Likewise, there is a huge difference from worshiping Christ within oneself via the Holy Spirit and with others, the Church (body of believers) and worshiping the actual Bible-the leather bounded book with red and black ink...because the teachings, the truth, I would assume for any Christian would not be in th Bible (as Nichiren Buddhist a scroll) but the actual teaching--Christ (or Dharma) itself.

I know in both cases they are not inseparable. I'm not saying that one is not more important than the other. I'm repeating that even Christ told his believers that they are looking at scriptures to find truth but the truth is in Him-the Messager. That's the only way a Christian can get back with the Message/Source is to go through the person who carries it, the Messanger...

that messanger is not the NIV or the KJV. It's not the Hebrew verses Vulgate text.

It's in Christ.

I dont see how that is misinterpreted.

Where am I going wrong at?

You can adhere to Jesus in any manner you want, the issue here, first, you are a Buddhist? So, something did not work with Xianity, obviously, and further, the Scripture is not merely a message by Jesus to abandon tradition, so forth. In fact, Jesus was revising tradition, or even taking some of it to a previous, more correct adherence. The ''message'' is not separate from the Scripture; where we encounter that argument, is when people are trying to change traditional, /what I call ''real''/, Xian belief.

We aren't really arguing, here, because we aren't talking about the same thing, in the first place.

 

[Stokley]

I always wanted to understand this train of thought among some believers. There are some who are very direct and blunt in their evangalization; and, then when I do get to know them on here (before some left), I find that we just agree to disagree. At least they understood me and I understood them and we accepted this... and went our way without direspect.

I like that.



I am not a Christian. If I were, I would not be a sola-scriptura christian because the whole world would be scripture not just the words in the book.

You know about god in the Bible (Satan knows the Bible). You can experience god everywhere (Satan can't do that). Unfortunately, I honestly feel you are mixing up learning about something and experiencing something.

Think of it this way:

Wouldn't you be spiting in God's face if you told him I only see you in this book but not in your Son?
Wouldn't it be spiting in God's face to say I see you in this book and not in your creation?
Wouldn't it be spiting in God's face to say I love you through this book and not by the Holy Spirit?

"You replace scriptures as if they are there the truth" (you are using words/traditions/rituals/etc) even when they (those actual traditions/words/etc) testify for me" in other words don't look to the words look to me, the Word. How can any Christian bypass this?

I am the Word; I am not the words. I am the Message.



A Christian (most I speak with) know have a relationship with Christ because of the Holy Spirit not because of the words they read in the Bible. Their personal relationship is not based on words: it's based on the Word (Christ). Huge difference!

Again, I think you're mixing learning about someone and experiencing someone. I learn about god in a book. I experience god through everything and everyone. (Where there is more than one person present, I am here). If there was no bible and two more Christians showed up, would Christ be there or would you need the book there? (If so, that is idolism)



My knowledge about god is not the same as yours. We come from different backgrounds and beliefs. We have different beliefs.

This is not a personal discussion. It's an objective question.

Why or how can you not see god outside the Bible?

Has it occurred to you that just because your knowledge about God is different than mine you thereby have no excuse for not telling me what you think you know about God? In fact, if we each had the same knowledge about God, then you would have a good reason for NOT telling me what you know about God.

Did you follow that?

Go ahead then and tell me what you know about God without reading the Bible. Because it sure sounds like you do not really know anything about Him. Be strong and confident.

 

[Stokley]

I b

You can adhere to Jesus in any manner you want, the issue here, first, you are a Buddhist? So, something did not work with Xianity, obviously, and further, the Scripture is not merely a message by Jesus to abandon tradition, so forth. In fact, Jesus was revising tradition, or even taking some of it to a previous, more correct adherence. The ''message'' is not separate from the Scripture; where we encounter that argument, is when people are trying to change traditional, /what I call ''real''/, Xian belief.

We aren't really arguing, here, because we aren't talking about the same thing, in the first place.

I used to have a hominem from No

Maybe I can kind of understand it. Ima use my religion as a mirror.

The Gohonzon (like the Bible) is a scroll (the Book) and on this scroll (or written in..) is the Buddha Dharma (the Message). When Nichiren Buddhists (I don't share that identying mark) come in front of the Dharma and chant, I personally use it as a meditational and inspirational way of looking into what the Dharma actually says--look to oneself not a scroll. That is what a Message and a Messanger, a Son does... The messanger's role is not the point to himself but the person or teaching he or the sutra represents or is in the image of.

On that note, we can't separate the scroll (the Bible) from the Dharma (the scripture) because our belief IS the Dharma.

There is a huge difference between worshiping the Dharma within oneself and (for me) my environment and worshiping the actual scroll and teachings as if they possess Buddhahood and not myself.

Likewise, there is a huge difference from worshiping Christ within oneself via the Holy Spirit and with others, the Church (body of believers) and worshiping the actual Bible-the leather bounded book with red and black ink...because the teachings, the truth, I would assume for any Christian would not be in th Bible (as Nichiren Buddhist a scroll) but the actual teaching--Christ (or Dharma) itself.

I know in both cases they are not inseparable. I'm not saying that one is not more important than the other. I'm repeating that even Christ told his believers that they are looking at scriptures to find truth but the truth is in Him-the Messager. That's the only way a Christian can get back with the Message/Source is to go through the person who carries it, the Messanger...

that messanger is not the NIV or the KJV. It's not the Hebrew verses Vulgate text.

It's in Christ.

I dont see how that is misinterpreted.

Where am I going wrong at?

Quite a while back, I had my Gohonzon from the Buddhist NichErin ShoShu guys. After a while, I burned it. Nothing bad happened to me like they threatened would. Then, I knew for sure their religion was nothing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can adhere to Jesus in any manner you want, the issue here, first, you are a Buddhist? So, something did not work with Xianity, obviously, and further, the Scripture is not merely a message by Jesus to abandon tradition, so forth. In fact, Jesus was revising tradition, or even taking some of it to a previous, more correct adherence. The ''message'' is not separate from the Scripture; where we encounter that argument, is when people are trying to change traditional, /what I call ''real''/, Xian belief.

We aren't really arguing, here, because we aren't talking about the same thing, in the first place.

No. It's not an arguement. I don't consider myself a Buddhist because I personally believe to be a formal one, an individual takes specific vows with not only himself, but with the Dharma, and Buddha order or Sangha.

This "you are not one of us so you won't understand us" mentality (good or bad natured) I do not understand at all.

You are saying you can't separate god from scripture. I agree. That is your faith.

What I have been saying is that god is not just in scripture, he is everywhere. SDA, JW, some Non-denominations, and some Baptists (and so forth) are the only ones I know that take on a sola scriptura view.

To me, saying god is only in scripture is taking out his creation, you, me, I don't know, the beauty of nature to the ugliness of human behavior today that wasn't in Moses day out the picture. It's spliting humanity a part based on time period. After Revelations, did people loose their insirpation? Isn't god without time?

Limiting him (not separating him) to scripture is beyond my understanding. I bet I am the only one on RF I know of that can say if I were Christian when I am not... or if I were satan... when I am not and continue with their sentence.

We need to get away from this "I understand the truth adn you dont unless you are with me" type of thing.

Christ died for all people. He went among the dirty. He did a lot of common sense things that does not need spiritual revelation for us to understand. Come on. Even a child understood the nature of Jesus so much he wanted to be Jesus. An innocent child who has not yet the bias to discriminate between other faiths and compare it to his worldview.

Anyway, I'm ranting,

God is not just in the Bible. Think about it. If God was just in the Bible, why would Jesus speak in his own words? Wouldn't he always go back to Jewish scripture and quote it verbatum? Obviously all four gospels are different even though they have the same stories of Jesus life and ministry.

I could go on.

The key is, you dont need the Bible to find god. Christ is in YOU. I don't have to be Christian to understand what that means. I just need to be Christian to experience it.

 

[Stokley]

Nobody s

No. It's not an arguement. I don't consider myself a Buddhist because I personally believe to be a formal one, an individual takes specific vows with not only himself, but with the Dharma, and Buddha order or Sangha.

This "you are not one of us so you won't understand us" mentality (good or bad natured) I do not understand at all.

You are saying you can't separate god from scripture. I agree. That is your faith.

What I have been saying is that god is not just in scripture, he is everywhere. SDA, JW, some Non-denominations, and some Baptists (and so forth) are the only ones I know that take on a sola scriptura view.

To me, saying god is only in scripture is taking out his creation, you, me, I don't know, the beauty of nature to the ugliness of human behavior today that wasn't in Moses day out the picture. It's spliting humanity a part based on time period. After Revelations, did people loose their insirpation? Isn't god without time?

Limiting him (not separating him) to scripture is beyond my understanding. I bet I am the only one on RF I know of that can say if I were Christian when I am not... or if I were satan... when I am not and continue with their sentence.

We need to get away from this "I understand the truth adn you dont unless you are with me" type of thing.

Christ died for all people. He went among the dirty. He did a lot of common sense things that does not need spiritual revelation for us to understand. Come on. Even a child understood the nature of Jesus so much he wanted to be Jesus. An innocent child who has not yet the bias to discriminate between other faiths and compare it to his worldview.

Anyway, I'm ranting,

God is not just in the Bible. Think about it. If God was just in the Bible, why would Jesus speak in his own words? Wouldn't he always go back to Jewish scripture and quote it verbatum? Obviously all four gospels are different even though they have the same stories of Jesus life and ministry.

I could go on.

The key is, you dont need the Bible to find god. Christ is in YOU. I don't have to be Christian to understand what that means. I just need to be Christian to experience it.

Nobody said "God is in Scripture." But, Information about Him is in Scripture.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Has it occurred to you that just because your knowledge about God is different than mine you thereby have no excuse for not telling me what you think you know about God? In fact, if we each had the same knowledge about God, then you would have a good reason for NOT telling me what you know about God.

Did you follow that?

Go ahead then and tell me what you know about God without reading the Bible. Because it sure sounds like you do not really know anything about Him. Be strong and confident.

I will say this directly: Please be respectful in your comments. I do not like your tone.

If you want to know how to see god outside the Bible from a Christian perspective, talk with another Christian such as @Deidre and others I can't think off the top of my head. How I view the god of abraham is through Catholicism. Outside of that, I just read people who athromotize god and it honestly makes me think of the movies.

I will rephrase these into statements. I don't think you read them as questions.

It's an insult to god if you only see him through a book

1. Not in creation: for where do families, marriage, babies, nature, etc come from if not from god?
2. Not through his Son: If you're reading to find Jesus, then are you forgeting that Jesus is in you?
3. Do you look in the Bible to find the holy spirit or to Christ?

This just seems so common sense kowledge.

The holy spirit doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from Christ
God doesn't come from the Bible, he has no beginning
Christ doesn't come from the Bible, he comes from his father.

I know you and many many Christians do not separate the Bible from God's word and that does not mean the Bible is god.



One question: Is the Bible Christ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I b


I used to have a hominem from No


Quite a while back, I had my Gohonzon from the Buddhist NichErin ShoShu guys. After a while, I burned it. Nothing bad happened to me like they threatened would. Then, I knew for sure their religion was nothing.

lol. I understand why Shoshu. I'd never burn a religious sacrament though, Bible, Quran, Gohonzon, whatever. That's completely direspectful.

To the point, if I burned the Bible now, it would have no ill affect. Why, because they are both objects. When we (you and I) are worshiping, we are not worshiping the objects but the Messanger/Christ (for you) and message/Dharma (for me) to which these objects either represents or has on them inscribed.

If you did not have a Bible, how would you have Christ?
Would you still be a Christian if there were no such thing as Bibles?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nobody s

Nobody said "God is in Scripture." But, Information about Him is in Scripture.

Do you see the difference?

I have been saying about for I dont know how many posts.

How can you not see that god's creation (environment, people, you, and I) are also about god as well?

The Bible isn't an isolated scripture. If you can't see what god created as a reflection of himself, then how can the Bible mean what you feel it means?

When I read the Bible, it was a reflection of my environment and the people I interact with. It was not isolated. I dont understand how you can isolated the Bible when the Word/Christ actually talks about god's creation as a reflection/image of himself.

You don't get it?

 

[Stokley]

I will say this directly: Please be respectful in your comments. I do not like your tone.

If you want to know how to see god outside the Bible from a Christian perspective, talk with another Christian such as @Deidre and others I can't think off the top of my head. How I view the god of abraham is through Catholicism. Outside of that, I just read people who athromotize god and it honestly makes me think of the movies.

I will rephrase these into statements. I don't think you read them as questions.

It's an insult to god if you only see him through a book

1. Not in creation: for where do families, marriage, babies, nature, etc come from if not from god?
2. Not through his Son: If you're reading to find Jesus, then are you forgeting that Jesus is in you?
3. Do you look in the Bible to find the holy spirit or to Christ?

This just seems so common sense kowledge.

The holy spirit doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from Christ
God doesn't come from the Bible, he has no beginning
Christ doesn't come from the Bible, he comes from his father.

I know you and many many Christians do not separate the Bible from God's word and that does not mean the Bible is god.



One question: Is the Bible Christ?

Tone? Let's review the substance of your poor comprehension as you keep misrepresenting my clear words.

You said you know God, yet you keep talking about how you do not relate to my God. "My God" is not the issue, here. You said you "knew God," so step up like a Real Gypsey and tell us what you know about YOUR GOD. Otherwise, do not claim you know your God.

I will predict, though, that you will find some flimsy little reason for not describing Your God. You do not seem to know how to put feet onto your words. Correct?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Be careful to not emotionally overreact like a woman by calling my comments "harsh judgement."

Carlita is not overreacting, but underreacting by ignoring your sexist comment and generally rude tone. It's people like you who give Christianity a bad name.