You can't have perfect knowledge through science

[I-Ching]

I don't know, man. Maybe too many years in philosophy, or too many Hellenism courses. I don't take many things to be genuine knowledge. With the exception of a few, you've really go to show me you are making the proper observations and that the method is sound for me to even believe that the sun is coming up today.

Most people rely to much on religion. Those who forsake religion, rely too much on science. At the fundamental core, I really don't see a hell of a whole lot of difference between either of them.

Once you get passed the basics of either, you are really just relying on the observations and methods of others to form your world view.

If you don't accept science or religion than you are relying on your mind. Your mind is very much subject to the human defects I have listed. You can not know Reality by mental speculation.

 

[I-Ching]

Well, its a major branch of philosophy. I'm simply setting the tone of the statement. What I said was very Hellenistic. You have to remember, the focal schools of thought in Hellenism are Skepticism, Cynicism, Stoicism, and Nihilism.

You'll see me mention, in other posts, epistemology when making statements about truth and what we know and how we can know it.

I'm skeptical of your skepticism.

 

[skydivephil]

The reasoning is based on the axiom that God exists, something that you no doubt struggle with, such reasoning may be a bit foreign.

what reasoning led you to your assumption that god exists?

 

[I-Ching]

what reasoning led you to your assumption that god exists?

The idea of this thread is that science is based on the axiom that we know Reality through our senses. Self-realization is based on the axiom that God exists. Both of them require some faith. Although it is clear that you can't know reality through your senses since they are limited and faulty.

 

[Otherright]

If you don't accept science or religion than you are relying on your mind. Your mind is very much subject to the human defects I have listed. You can not know Reality by mental speculation.

I'm not saying I accept or reject either completely, and I've made no assumptions about my ability to know the nature of reality. I'm only saying absolute knowledge is impossible to have.

 

[Otherright]

I'm skeptical of your skepticism.

As well you should be.

 

[PolyHedral]

The idea of this thread is that science is based on the axiom that we know Reality through our senses. Self-realization is based on the axiom that God exists. Both of them require some faith. Although it is clear that you can't know reality through your senses since they are limited and faulty.

I don't require any faith. I believe the model sending data to me is consistent, but that's only by inferring from a track record. If it stops being consistent, then I'll stop believing it.

My argument is based on the axiom that God exists. If you accept this then there is no reason why He can't give us perfect knowledge.

How do you know that God is not lying to you?

 

[I-Ching]

I'm not saying I accept or reject either completely, and I've made no assumptions about my ability to know the nature of reality. I'm only saying absolute knowledge is impossible to have.

You don't think it possible for God to give us absolute knowledge? Is it beyond Him?

 

[Revoltingest]

The idea of this thread is that science is based on the axiom that we know Reality through our senses.

It beats the religious axiom that one's emotions give perfect knowledge.

 

[Otherright]

You don't think it possible for God to give us absolute knowledge? Is it beyond Him?

I'm a buddhist, so no. But I'll bite. If your God does exist, how has he given us absolute knowledge?

 

[I-Ching]

It beats the religious axiom that one's emotions give perfect knowledge.

Spiritual life is about controlling the mind and emotions so that the soul can shine through.

 

[I-Ching]

I'm a buddhist, so no. But I'll bite. If your God does exist, how has he given us absolute knowledge?

Through Guru, Sadhu and Sastra(scripture).

 

[Revoltingest]

Spiritual life is about controlling the mind and emotions so that the soul can shine through.

Tis a fancy & pretentious way of saying "absolute faith in feelings".
There's no polite way to describe this.....it's just unmanly.
Real men figure things out by thinking.

 

[I-Ching]

I don't require any faith. I believe the model sending data to me is consistent.

I think believing is faith.

How do you know that God is not lying to you?

Why would God lie? Human beings lie because of their material desires. God has not desires, he fully satisfied. He only goes to effort of communicating with us out of compassion.

 

[I-Ching]

Tis a fancy & pretentious way of saying "absolute faith in feelings".
There's no polite way to describe this.....it's just unmanly.
Real men figure things out by thinking.

We have to use the intelligence to control the mind. Real intelligence is to pursue self-realization. Foolishness is base you life on eating, sleeping, mating and defending like an animal.

 

[Otherright]

Through Guru, Sadhu and Sastra(scripture).

No. Like I said in a much earlier post, I agree with you on the first two points, but not the later. I think you said it best in the previous post, I can't know through mental speculation. Which is true.

The Guru and Sadhu are people, just like you and I, and are susceptible to the same mental faults that we are. Sastra and Sutras can come closer to absolute knowledge in guiding us on how we relate to and interact with reality, but I'm not sure they can provide us with the full picture of what reality is.

But, in the end, I have to walk my own path and make the best observations I can in how I relate and interact with the world and reality. Now I can use the sastra, sutras, even the bible to help guide me in wisdom, but I still must rely on my own observations to make my decisions, and through them, I'll never know absolute knowledge.

 

[Revoltingest]

We have to use the intelligence to control the mind. Real intelligence is to pursue self-realization. Foolishness is base you life on eating, sleeping, mating and defending like an animal.

"Foolishness" sounds pretty good when you describe it that way.

A great philosophical work once described the 3 phases of a civilization on it's path to ultimate enlightenment.....
1) How can we eat?
2) Why do we eat?
3) Where shall we do lunch?

 

[haribol]

Passion and reason combined gives perfect knowledge, science being reason and religion passion. Love is necessary and without it life becomes dry and meaningless. Science is something that makes life easier and more comfortable and yet religion gives man his intent and hope. We cannot totally discard or give up one for the other. Like you are here because of the conjugated relationship between father and mother so is life full and complete when science and religion go in accord with each other. You need to wear clothes and need to set a fire and take medicines how much you are religious and your faith cannot save you if you have a fatal disease. People had to inoculated when they had smallpox. Both should be in balance and therefore we need both together.
Science has brought me closer and closer to people from different parts of the world and had it not been science I could never come closer to such a large number of people across the world. Today I enjoy posting my thoughts on this wonderful forum and wait see their responses to my post. I have learned English just because of science or else I would not have even learned it.
Today we are getting closer and closer and the accessibility of everything today makes the world go shrinking into a small global village. Of course there are some new problems we will have to address and there are issues of racisms. Some fundamentalists are creating threats to global peace and new communal violence is popping up globally. We are getting increasingly more materialistic or consumerism is sweeping us yet there are some other aspects we can take pride in. Today news gets spread like a wild fire instantly. There are other aspects we can really be optimistic about. Today the distribution system is getting more and more systematic . Technology has helped us to know what is happening almost in every part of the world and humanitarians, volunteers, aid workers are running everywhere to help the need and deprived.
Of course we are losing environmentally today more than ever before yet today we are getting environmentally more aware than any era in human history. The only challenge we have today is addressing fundamentalism. Religion is inevitable and life becomes pointless, hollow without religion. But some people in the name of religion have been menacing. I am very optimistic about the future of the world.
One of the things we can wallow in is the fact that though scientifically we have achieved phenomenal changes, we are advancing religiously too, and people’s faith is not shaken in the least despite we have advanced by leaps and bounds in development .
I seemed to have strayed and gone beyond the main theme. I want to conclude that we need both science and religion in the same proportion

 

[I-Ching]

The Guru and Sadhu are people, just like you and I, and are susceptible to the same mental faults that we are. Sastra and Sutras can come closer to absolute knowledge in guiding us on how we relate to and interact with reality, but I'm not sure they can provide us with the full picture of what reality is.

Guru is by definition not like you or I. A Guru is pure representative of God, I wouldn't consider myself in the same category. I think you are thinking of false guru's and sadhus.

You are right you will never absolute knowledge by sastra alone.

 

[I-Ching]

"Foolishness" sounds pretty good when you describe it that way.

A great philosophical work once described the 3 phases of a civilization on it's path to ultimate enlightenment.....
1) How can we eat?
2) Why do we eat?
3) Where shall we do lunch?

Sounds like a pigs "philosophical work"