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You can't have perfect knowledge through science

Acim

Revelation all the time
There is no similarity between them. Religious Faith in God has nothing to do with Secular Faith my car will start tomorrow morning.

There is enormous similarity. More accurate to say they are not the same. If you are employing trust in others observations, their handiwork, of things you have little to no experience in doing, that is faith, and akin religious faith. If you have empirical data to back up reasoning for something in your experience, but that isn't 100% certain, that faith is similar to spiritual faith.

Spiritual faith and religious faith are not the same. While some (say agnostic types) may perceive them as same, having no distinct difference. To me, the difference is, spiritual is basing trust on experience / practice of going within to find answers that can be trusted, from experience and credibility of source. Religious faith is taking leap in logic and trusting that God outside of me (or around me) has done something, written something, provided something for me (or others).
 

Otherright

Otherright
Secular Faith and Religious Faith -- those should be two words that don't even look like the same word. There is no similarity between them. Religious Faith in God has nothing to do with Secular Faith my car will start tomorrow morning.

Like I said, That trust in their observation is faith, not religious faith, but faith. I'm using the general definition of faith.

When it comes to observations in science, especially those you are completely incapable of making on your own, you are exercising a type of faith.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Science provides a measured method of insight into the physical world
from the perspective (observational vantage point) of "man".


There are many questions 'science' can't answer.
(ie, man can't answer through science)

I'm not sure what this "perfect knowledge" is (supposed to be).

All of the more important question can not be answered by science and yet we still try answer them with science and have faith in the answers.

prefect knowledge is self explanatory
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
The appreciation of art, music or literature may step outside the domain of science and you may expand your knowledge through developing certain talents in those respective disciplines but I cant see any such advancement of knowledge with religion. You could play a piano perfectly well but know next to nothing about science.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Revoltingest said:
It sure beats theocracies.
Even Hitler invoked Gott to be on his side.
(We all knew he had to make an appearance eventually.)
At least now, there hasn't been an auto de fe in many a year.
You can let a self-proclaimed guru tell you what to think, but that ain't for me.
As even the Devil himself said to humans, "Given brains you have been....use them!".

Your perspective on history is limited. According to the Vedas prior to 5000 years ago the earth was ruled many saintly kings.
I think Eugenics was Hitlers main plan.
Proper use of your brain would be to realize that you are suffering and how to solve that problem. If you are thirsty it implies that water exists. Similarly perfect happiness exists.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Mestemia said:
Wait, so you are saying you "KNOW" based on something written by humans who have senses that are limited and imperfect, make mistakes, are in illusion, and cheat?

Can we say "hypocrite"
You clearly haven't understood what I have been saying.
Scripture by definition doesn't come from humans. If I was quoting Dr Cheater then you could say I was a hypocrite.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Otherright said:
I still stand by this statement in regards to both science and religion, but as I see it neither one is going to give you absolute knowledge.
Why can't God give you absolute knowledge?
Is it because He doesn't know or is it because it is beyond His power
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
averageJOE said:
OK. What about an attack from a wild animal? Or do you think your immune to such an accident? As your lying there bleeding to death would you want to:
a) Rely on I-Ching and start chanting your gods name, or
b) Be taken to a hospital
There is such a thing as an Ayurvedic hospital. Even in "modern" times.


averageJOE said:
So why don't you permanatly stop eating, sleeping, mating, and defending? You don't want to be a fool do you?
I do those things to maintain my body, but maintaining my body is not the purpose of my life. The body is a vehicle. The theist uses his body to advance spiritually. The atheist is practically on the animal platform.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
St Giordano Bruno said:
The appreciation of art, music or literature may step outside the domain of science and you may expand your knowledge through developing certain talents in those respective disciplines but I cant see any such advancement of knowledge with religion. You could play a piano perfectly well but know next to nothing about science.
The theist advances his consciousness and in so doing his realization of the theoretical knowledge increases.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
There is enormous similarity. More accurate to say they are not the same. If you are employing trust in others observations, their handiwork, of things you have little to no experience in doing, that is faith, and akin religious faith. If you have empirical data to back up reasoning for something in your experience, but that isn't 100% certain, that faith is similar to spiritual faith.

Spiritual faith and religious faith are not the same. While some (say agnostic types) may perceive them as same, having no distinct difference. To me, the difference is, spiritual is basing trust on experience / practice of going within to find answers that can be trusted, from experience and credibility of source. Religious faith is taking leap in logic and trusting that God outside of me (or around me) has done something, written something, provided something for me (or others).
Secular reasoning is nothing like religious faith. Believing the sun will rise tomorrow is nothing like the faith needed for religion.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Like I said, That trust in their observation is faith, not religious faith, but faith. I'm using the general definition of faith.

When it comes to observations in science, especially those you are completely incapable of making on your own, you are exercising a type of faith.
What type of faith is that. We do build on each others knowledge but I would use the word trust instead. Though there may be a difference between me trusting a doctor that shows results versus trusting a quantum physicisist I've never been in contact with.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Your perspective on history is limited. According to the Vedas prior to 5000 years ago the earth was ruled many saintly kings.
Your archeological citation?
Proper use of your brain would be to realize that you are suffering and how to solve that problem. If you are thirsty it implies that water exists. Similarly perfect happiness exists.
I know I'm suffering, however slightly, but no amount of spirituality can fix the underlying problem. It is simply not capable of it. Unless you've suddenly developed Vedic brain surgery and I haven't heard about it?:shrug:
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
Science is imperfect because it is made from imperfect brains as those of we humans. However, being imperfect doesn't mean being wrong or being "less".

You are assuming we must trust some higher inteligence aparently perfect to solve our problems, but that "higher inteligence" just doesn't exist (unless someday someone proves the contrary) so the only thing we can do is trust in ourselves and consequently in science (our "imperfect" method of doing things correctly).

You can't get perfect knowledge from science, but of course YOU ABSOLUTLY CAN NOT GET perfect knowledge from religion as God never talk to his creation and you can't say he wrote the bible because you don't know, and even if he did, there are plenty of things the bible doesn't explain.

Also I have read that some people think society have "faith" in science. Well, I have faith in science as I feel science is solving or will solve most of the world's problems. But I don't have faith in something proven true by science, because THAT IS NOT FAITH. When science proves something is true using the scientific method, it means it is just TRUE. You can not go "well I have faith in the scientist in the sense that he told this is true and I will believe him" - that is something a religious person do - , the other people are not suposed to believe in the scientist words but in the objectivity of the scientific method and the evidence.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Secular reasoning is nothing like religious faith. Believing the sun will rise tomorrow is nothing like the faith needed for religion.

Correct. As I said, it is like spiritual faith.

Just as you are changing the terms (secular faith to secular reasoning), I am drawing distinction between religious faith and spiritual faith and explained that previously. Spiritual reasoning is akin to secular reasoning (in sense you are alluding to. Believing something in the future will be like it was in recent past and consistently has been from experience. While allowing for possibility that there is no certainty and a 'complete surprise' is not out of the question.)
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
What type of faith is that. We do build on each others knowledge but I would use the word trust instead. Though there may be a difference between me trusting a doctor that shows results versus trusting a quantum physicisist I've never been in contact with.

Curious what you think that difference is? And if it is really in the trust, or something else?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
When science proves something is true using the scientific method, it means it is just TRUE. You can not go "well I have faith in the scientist in the sense that he told this is true and I will believe him" - that is something a religious person do - , the other people are not suposed to believe in the scientist words but in the objectivity of the scientific method and the evidence.

And that objectivity is not there. Instead it is a consensus of 'best method around' not an objective proof. Find that proof and provide it here or wherever you desire.

The evidence surely is not objective, nor do I think you mean that. The interpretation of the evidence may be considered objective, though as I've noted, that proof is not found. And is more in vein of consensus that evidence is very similar in quite similar situations.

Fact is, it is faith in particular science types and scientists that occurs. If 'psuedo scientist' followed same methods (same exact methods) and came to conclusion, that conclusion would be, I believe highly scrutinized, likely downplayed, not because of methodology, but because of person's bias(es) and credentials. Which is whole other aspect of this discussion. We think science is the sort of thing (like religious hierarchies) that benefits from credentials, to the point where no credentials means, "pay no attention to those people." I often wonder why the reality isn't we are all to be considered scientists unless there is something more going on that amounts to faith. The assumption ought to be everyone is a scientist, unless there is sufficient reason to doubt their overall credibility. Not just one strike and you're out, but more like varying degrees and that some persons may be more like, "hey he/she has 95 strikes against them, but since we are all scientists, it ought to be considered. Perhaps it will lead to strike 96, or may be one of the rare instances where he/she brought results that are met with consensus." The point being here, except for ridiculously extreme cases such as that, why not assume everyone/anyone can do this methodology and likely does some or much of the time, with different phenomenon, different scopes? I think in theory, proponents of science would support this, but in practical world we live in and in history of science, it shows up often as, only select few are (real) scientists.

Which is another one of those things I'm 99% sure scientific method cannot back up. What makes for scientist and how would methodology go about providing evidence for that?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Correct. As I said, it is like spiritual faith.

Just as you are changing the terms (secular faith to secular reasoning), I am drawing distinction between religious faith and spiritual faith and explained that previously. Spiritual reasoning is akin to secular reasoning (in sense you are alluding to. Believing something in the future will be like it was in recent past and consistently has been from experience. While allowing for possibility that there is no certainty and a 'complete surprise' is not out of the question.)
No there is a major difference. Religious faith is like having faith Catholics or mormons are true and is much different from secular reasoning using things that are seen. Spiritual and Religious are the same only spiritual is less rigid but is all has to do with things unseen. Secular as to do with things that are seen and not really debateable when everyone see it.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Curious what you think that difference is? And if it is really in the trust, or something else?
The difference is I've seen proof that doctors know magic but I've never been to physics lab so I have to go by what I read. We go to universities to learn the knowledge of people over the ages just as you go to monks to learn spirituality. The major diffence between a spiritual book and secular book is the difference between seen and unseen despite what we experience inside which would be more personal. When one book says "what goes up must come down" and another book says "god is inside of us" there is a huge difference in the trust factor in that the book talking about god requires faith and "believing" in gravity requires none.
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
And that objectivity is not there. Instead it is a consensus of 'best method around' not an objective proof. Find that proof and provide it here or wherever you desire.

A scientist is an individual who uses the scientific method to demonstrate something.

A christian is an individual who has faith that something that he believes is the truth.

Of course we can criticize the scientific method because it has it's weak spots, but that doesn't mean it is little trustworthy. The things demonstrated by this method are supported by evidence (that is, by it's own meaning, objective) and are true, because everything you can't demonstrate is not "scientificly demonstrated" - is just an hypothesis.
 
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