You didn't choose what you believe.

[jmvizanko]

I sincerely believe that nobody chooses to believe what they believe regarding religion and gods. How can you choose to believe something that ultimately boils down to what arguments and/or tradition your mind accepts as true?

If free will exists, I certainly believe that is exists much moreso in the ability to choose one's actions, than it does regarding what one considers true. In my opinion the mind is much more shaped by what a person experiences than a conscious choice to map a specific mindset. Nobody chooses what sorts of arguments will be the most persuasive to their mind, and therefore nobody chooses what beliefs they will hold, given that beliefs, especially in the realm of the non universally knowable, are subject to whatever justifying arguments satisfy the gieven mind the most.

Freedom to choose belief is central to many of the major religious stances, as the most popular gods seem to favor beliefs at at least the same level as what a person's deeds are. This is probably the ultimate reason why I dismiss the major theologies. If a person cannot choose what they believe, then it is completely unjust to judge them upon what they do believe.

Somebody put forth the best counter argument. Because I've never heard a good one.

 

[Walkntune]

I sincerely believe that nobody chooses to believe what they believe regarding religion and gods. How can you choose to believe something that ultimately boils down to what arguments and/or tradition your mind accepts as true?

If free will exists, I certainly believe that is exists much moreso in the ability to choose one's actions, than it does regarding what one considers true. In my opinion the mind is much more shaped by what a person experiences than a conscious choice to map a specific mindset. Nobody chooses what sorts of arguments will be the most persuasive to their mind, and therefore nobody chooses what beliefs they will hold, given that beliefs, especially in the realm of the non universally knowable, are subject to whatever justifying arguments satisfy the gieven mind the most.

Freedom to choose belief is central to many of the major religious stances, as the most popular gods seem to favor beliefs at at least the same level as what a person's deeds are. This is probably the ultimate reason why I dismiss the major theologies. If a person cannot choose what they believe, then it is completely unjust to judge them upon what they do believe.

Somebody put forth the best counter argument. Because I've never heard a good one.

I say if you don't choose what you believe then there are a lot of fools out there wasting money on TV commercials trying to sell you there products.

 

[Meow Mix]

I sincerely believe that nobody chooses to believe what they believe regarding religion and gods. How can you choose to believe something that ultimately boils down to what arguments and/or tradition your mind accepts as true?

If free will exists, I certainly believe that is exists much moreso in the ability to choose one's actions, than it does regarding what one considers true. In my opinion the mind is much more shaped by what a person experiences than a conscious choice to map a specific mindset. Nobody chooses what sorts of arguments will be the most persuasive to their mind, and therefore nobody chooses what beliefs they will hold, given that beliefs, especially in the realm of the non universally knowable, are subject to whatever justifying arguments satisfy the gieven mind the most.

Freedom to choose belief is central to many of the major religious stances, as the most popular gods seem to favor beliefs at at least the same level as what a person's deeds are. This is probably the ultimate reason why I dismiss the major theologies. If a person cannot choose what they believe, then it is completely unjust to judge them upon what they do believe.

Somebody put forth the best counter argument. Because I've never heard a good one.

I agree that we are predisposed to certain beliefs or other, but predisposition is trumped by our sentience. We're not slaves to our genes or environment by way of being self-aware.

I wasn't predisposed to atheism. I chose atheism by doubting theism when I didn't even want to doubt it. I had a desire for theism to be true, but a greater desire to only believe what was rational to believe and I didn't have anything to rationally believe theism with.

 

[Wotan]

I say if you don't choose what you believe then there are a lot of fools out there wasting money on TV commercials trying to sell you there products.

Poor analogy. Those products are REAL. They can be used tested effects measured and rational decisions made on that basis.

Mythology . . . not so much. It either appeals to you to the extent of the willing suspension of disbelief or it doesn't. And if it doesn't no amount of "faith" will make you believe it.

 

[Walkntune]

Poor analogy. Those products are REAL. They can be used tested effects measured and rational decisions made on that basis.

Mythology . . . not so much. It either appeals to you to the extent of the willing suspension of disbelief or it doesn't. And if it doesn't no amount of "faith" will make you believe it.

This is not true and most products don't live up to what they had you believe.
It was a myth the whole time.

 

[jmvizanko]

I say if you don't choose what you believe then there are a lot of fools out there wasting money on TV commercials trying to sell you there products.

And likewise. Do you really choose to find an advertised product appealing? Because I think its more a product of what you find useful based on who you are, and the arguments (such as, this snuggy will keep you warm and make you look cool) than what you actually choose to buy. I guess I am more of a determinist than most people, based on the few responses so far.

 

[jmvizanko]

I agree that we are predisposed to certain beliefs or other, but predisposition is trumped by our sentience. We're not slaves to our genes or environment by way of being self-aware.

I wasn't predisposed to atheism. I chose atheism by doubting theism when I didn't even want to doubt it. I had a desire for theism to be true, but a greater desire to only believe what was rational to believe and I didn't have anything to rationally believe theism with.

So then I think you should substitute predispostion for desire. You didn't choose atheism. The way your mind works made it make more sense.

 

[dawny0826]

I sincerely believe that nobody chooses to believe what they believe regarding religion and gods. How can you choose to believe something that ultimately boils down to what arguments and/or tradition your mind accepts as true?

If free will exists, I certainly believe that is exists much moreso in the ability to choose one's actions, than it does regarding what one considers true. In my opinion the mind is much more shaped by what a person experiences than a conscious choice to map a specific mindset. Nobody chooses what sorts of arguments will be the most persuasive to their mind, and therefore nobody chooses what beliefs they will hold, given that beliefs, especially in the realm of the non universally knowable, are subject to whatever justifying arguments satisfy the gieven mind the most.

Freedom to choose belief is central to many of the major religious stances, as the most popular gods seem to favor beliefs at at least the same level as what a person's deeds are. This is probably the ultimate reason why I dismiss the major theologies. If a person cannot choose what they believe, then it is completely unjust to judge them upon what they do believe.

Somebody put forth the best counter argument. Because I've never heard a good one.

I follow your logic but I can't say that this has applied to me.

I chose my belief in God. Over years, evidence was presented to me in various forms and I accepted it as truth.

I believe that we can be naturally inclined to certain thought processes but I still think that when it comes to belief, there's an element of choice involved, even if small.

 

[Wotan]

Why do I feel attacked here?

Exposed is more like it.

 

[Meow Mix]

So then I think you should substitute predispostion for desire. You didn't choose atheism. The way your mind works made it make more sense.

Are you familiar with Galen Strawson?

Strawson argues against the existence of free will by arguing that minds don't have the power of causa sui (creation of itself, loosely). He would say that given the choice between ice cream and chocolate -- even if you like both things -- you would choose one because you just felt like choosing that one; and then ask where that base desire for choosing that particular one came from. He would then say that obviously you didn't consciously choose that base desire and therefore it wasn't a causa sui choice (strictly free will choice).

I think you've re-discovered Strawson's argument here, which I think is also impressive to arrive at a greath thinker's idea independently.

As I don't know how to respond to Strawson, I don't really know how to respond to your argument here either. You might be right. However it doesn't change a lot for me because whether or not free will exists, arguments still change people's minds (regardless of whether it's their causa sui decision or not) and it behaves in exactly the same way as if free will does exist, so... I don't really pay attention to the free will debate. It doesn't matter to me since it ultimately plays out the same way either way.

I do think Strawson has an excellent, very difficult to defeat point though; and likewise as it seems to me that you've independently arrived at it too, so do you. :thud:

 

[gzusfrk]

I sincerely believe that nobody chooses to believe what they believe regarding religion and gods. How can you choose to believe something that ultimately boils down to what arguments and/or tradition your mind accepts as true?

If free will exists, I certainly believe that is exists much moreso in the ability to choose one's actions, than it does regarding what one considers true. In my opinion the mind is much more shaped by what a person experiences than a conscious choice to map a specific mindset. Nobody chooses what sorts of arguments will be the most persuasive to their mind, and therefore nobody chooses what beliefs they will hold, given that beliefs, especially in the realm of the non universally knowable, are subject to whatever justifying arguments satisfy the gieven mind the most.

Freedom to choose belief is central to many of the major religious stances, as the most popular gods seem to favor beliefs at at least the same level as what a person's deeds are. This is probably the ultimate reason why I dismiss the major theologies. If a person cannot choose what they believe, then it is completely unjust to judge them upon what they do believe.

Somebody put forth the best counter argument. Because I've never heard a good one.

In most cases it chooses you.

 

[Walkntune]

Exposed is more like it.

I guess you proved there is no God. The forum can close down now.

 

[Wotan]

I guess you proved there is no God. The forum can close down now.

No. that cannot be done. It is all but impossible to prove a negative. And IS impossible to prove that NO god of ANY description exists.

It IS possible to show that there is zero evidence objective for a certain conception of god. It is also possible to show that an omniMax being is self-contradictory.

 

[jmvizanko]

As I don't know how to respond to Strawson, I don't really know how to respond to your argument here either. You might be right. However it doesn't change a lot for me because whether or not free will exists, arguments still change people's minds (regardless of whether it's their causa sui decision or not) and it behaves in exactly the same way as if free will does exist, so... I don't really pay attention to the free will debate. It doesn't matter to me since it ultimately plays out the same way either way.

I agree that regardless of what level we have actual free will, it doesn't really matter since we all understand the high level of illusion that we do truly have free will, even if we don't. Some people may feel like their life is a roller coaster that they are just along for the ride on, but most people I think feel like their life is largely the result of their choices, and that they could have chosen differently, even though they didn't. If I had to go with a definition of free will, I think it would be the ability to generate pure random decisions, free of the brute summation of all the desires and mechanisms that are uncontrollably a part of their brain at any given moment. And I can't say I lean towards this really being something people are capable of.

I disagree that it is really all that great of a feat to have had this thought, though, and it seems like a pretty general thing to think when pondering free will. Its certainly a billion times less impressive than say, independently developing general relativity. And sorry if this is offensive at all, but I think most people are much more capable of having most of the thoughts that philosophy has to offer, and indeed many do have them at some point, than other spheres of knowledge such as science and mathematics.

 

[jmvizanko]

I chose my belief in God. Over years, evidence was presented to me in various forms and I accepted it as truth.

I believe that we can be naturally inclined to certain thought processes but I still think that when it comes to belief, there's an element of choice involved, even if small.

Well if you accepted the evidence and arguments, then does that really mean you chose them? Because acceptance just means the attitude that something is true. And you either thought it was true or you didn't, you didn't choose whether or not it seemed true to you.

And saying that the element of choice about belief is small is not really far off from saying you don't choose belief. Even if there is any component that is not based in choice, then you can't really say you chose belief any more than it chose you.

 

[Diederick]

I think the 'choice' is indeed very much related to the following:
- mental strength and personality
- mental health
- social constructs
- violence (fear)
- evidence (logic)

For some people, life without a religion or belief means life without half (if not more) of their social network, sometimes religion or a belief is so badly forced into them it just won't come out. Social loss is a very deterring force. It takes strength to stand up for what you think is true, for what seems logic and well supported by evidence.

But really, isn't every choice the logical result of our psychological and neurological function of processing information and choosing the most profitable option?

 

[Skwim]

I sincerely believe that nobody chooses to believe what they believe regarding religion and gods. How can you choose to believe something that ultimately boils down to what arguments and/or tradition your mind accepts as true?

If free will exists, I certainly believe that is exists much moreso in the ability to choose one's actions, than it does regarding what one considers true. In my opinion the mind is much more shaped by what a person experiences than a conscious choice to map a specific mindset. Nobody chooses what sorts of arguments will be the most persuasive to their mind, and therefore nobody chooses what beliefs they will hold, given that beliefs, especially in the realm of the non universally knowable, are subject to whatever justifying arguments satisfy the gieven mind the most.

Freedom to choose belief is central to many of the major religious stances, as the most popular gods seem to favor beliefs at at least the same level as what a person's deeds are. This is probably the ultimate reason why I dismiss the major theologies. If a person cannot choose what they believe, then it is completely unjust to judge them upon what they do believe.

Somebody put forth the best counter argument. Because I've never heard a good one.

If all this hinges on the existence of true free will---as opposed to a completely deterministic universe---then you're in deep trouble because such a "will" doesn't exist. We do what we do because we can do no differently.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I believe in the teaching of Jesus, this is my own choice.
As is my choice to hold an open mind about most of the Biblical stories.
If any of them are somehow proved untrue, in some cases I may be disappointed, but none of them define my faith on their own.

Most of the Old testament I find either irrelevant to a Christian, or hold simply as mystical stories.

 

[Midnight Pete]

What if you were predestined to believe what you believe?

Don't ponder this too deeply, or else you will burn out the logic circuits in your brain.

 

[jmvizanko]

I believe in the teaching of Jesus, this is my own choice.
As is my choice to hold an open mind about most of the Biblical stories.
If any of them are somehow proved untrue, in some cases I may be disappointed, but none of them define my faith on their own.

Most of the Old testament I find either irrelevant to a Christian, or hold simply as mystical stories.

So you say it is your choice. But why do you think it is a choice? Either you find the evidence for his miracles and arguments for his ethics convincing or you don't.

And I don't see the relevance in including your statement about the OT. So in similar irrelevance, I'll take the opportunity to point out that Jesus was a Jew that believed in the validity of the "OT" and said he came to affirm every bit of it.