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You don't have a monopoly on truth.

Which statement more accurately presents your religious views?

  • My beliefs are factually correct

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • I could be wrong

    Votes: 22 62.9%

  • Total voters
    35

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I would offer you beleive Jesus is God. Which is OK by the way, I see why you see Jesus can be God.
I can also see why. :)

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth .......... For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I know that Jesus is not God, and I know that because of what is in the Bible.

Nothing in the Scriptures supports Jesus being God.
The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
I did this for my Mother back in the early 1980's. I read the New Testament front to back to find passages where Jesus said he was not God, or indicated Jesus was not God.

I noted them on A4 sheets of paper and got about 5 pages of quotes. (I still have them, I will maybe post the copies)

Then I sat down to write the "WINNER" letter to my mother. :smile: I got about half a page, I had started with the best winner quotes ever!

I never finished after I read what I had already put to paper, the ball dropped, if it is so darn plain and easy to see, then why the heck did I need to do this in the first place? It was logically a waste of time, you can see it, or you can not see it, accept it, or not accept it.

Why, because All those passages jump out of the Bible, they really need no explanation, as that is the main theme in the Bible, Jesus is not God, He is Christ, He was an "Annointed" one.

What needed clarification was when Jesus did associate Himself with God, to which the passage from Baha'u'llah explains in the most logical way. The Trinity was a disaster of an explanation, one that Muhammad told the Christians to cease with.

Regards Tony
 
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Jimmy

King Phenomenon
And …

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32
The truth doesn’t make you free. It just makes you know the truth. Free from what exactly? Not knowing the truth? Many, many people all over the world will live and die not knowing the truth imo. That doesn’t make them unfree. Life is about treating people kind and doing the best you can do. That’s all. It isn’t any deeper than that really, Everyone on this planet is a child of God imo. Some will know the truth, some won’t imo, but we’re all in this together.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Do you accept the fact that you do not have a monopoly on truth?

Do you accept the truth that your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, could be wrong?

In Christian church, I was taught that "lack of faith" aka a healthy dose of skepticism, was absolutely terrible and you needed to fix it. You were to have unshakable faith, and know that you have a monopoly on truth, as a Bible wielding Christian.

Most Christians I know in my life believe they have a monopoly on truth. I wonder if it is the same for the folk on this site, regardless of religion.

Not a monopoly, but there are some things that I can't see how the opposite of what I believe could possibly be true.

It's kind of like nutrition: in the range of normal differences of opinion, I'm open to the evidence about what the right amount of daily sodium is, how much we should eat in vegetables over a day. Could the Atkins diet be best? Dunno - let's look at the evidence and be open to what it says.

... but if someone argues that we should be eating a block of rat poison every day or nothing but rocks, I'm good with saying "no - I know that that's nonsense."

I would probably say that the knowledge claims of most mainstream religions are pretty close to the "eating a block of rat poison every day is heathier than not eating rat poison at all" end of the spectrum than to the "butter is healthier than margarine (or vice versa)" end of the spectrum.

Only agnostics acknowledge the fact that they don't have the facts. Am I wrong?
I disagree about agnostics. In a lot of ways, the agnostics have an even bolder knowledge claim than devout theists.

Arguing that the existence of gods is unknowable takes not only an assessment of the evidence that the currently has on hand, but also - somehow - an assessment of evidence that the agnostic has never seen.

Agnosticism is one of those stances where it's inherently impossible to be completely rational.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Agnosticism is one of those stances where it's inherently impossible to be completely rational
I understand agnosticism as someone who feels they don't have the perception/position to judge whether or not there is a God. Where is the irrationality in that? It seems reasonable and humble.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I understand agnosticism as someone who feels they don't have the perception/position to judge whether or not there is a God. Where is the irrationality in that? It seems reasonable and humble.
We have different understandings of what "agnostic" means, then.

In my understanding, an agnostic isn't just someone who's on the fence about the existence of gods; they're someone who makes the positive claim that the existence of gods (or God specifically) is unknowable.

Coming to this conclusion rationally would probably take something akin to onmiscience.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
We have different understandings of what "agnostic" means, then.

In my understanding, an agnostic isn't just someone who's on the fence about the existence of gods; they're someone who makes the positive claim that the existence of gods (or God specifically) is unknowable.

Coming to this conclusion rationally would probably take something akin to onmiscience.
Ah i see.

Agnosticism might be a bit of an umbrella term then, if I am included in it (i find myself agnostic by the definition I provided)
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Not knowing the truth about life’s mysteries isn’t self-deception and delusion.
True, not knowing all life’s mysteries is not deception or delusion, but I think deliberately denying plain, simple realities and truths is self-deception and delusion.


…and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Free from self-deception and delusion.
With that observation you have offered I ask a question in response.

If there have been 3 Messengers Annointed by God since Jesus. How would that reflect on ones perception of a Christian relationship to God?

Your user name is actually a great Truth. We come to God in Christ. Christ is the reality of all the Names and Attributes of God.

Would you consider that we all have a level of self-deception and delusion? That to me is a truth to consider.

Regards Tony
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
True, not knowing all life’s mysteries is not deception or delusion, but I think deliberately denying plain, simple realities and truths is self-deception and delusion.


…and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
No one denies plain simple realities and truths.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
With that observation you have offered I ask a question in response.

If there have been 3 Messengers Annointed by God since Jesus. How would that reflect on ones perception of a Christian relationship to God?

Your user name is actually a great Truth. We come to God in Christ. Christ is the reality of all the Names and Attributes of God.

Would you consider that we all have a level of self-deception and delusion? That to me is a truth to consider.

Regards Tony
I don’t know of three anointed messengers since Jesus Christ, since according to the biblical scriptures He was the complete and final revelation of God, which both the OT and NT attest to.
Sure, we all have a level of self-deception, therefore I think the need of guidance from the Holy Spirit, repentance, and transformation in Christ.





But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:26


Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 2:16-18
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
True, not knowing all life’s mysteries is not deception or delusion, but I think deliberately denying plain, simple realities and truths is self-deception and delusion.


…and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
Im not talking about getting pleasure from unrighteous behavior. I’m talking about the truth of life’s mysteries like how we got here and where we’re going.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Im not talking about getting pleasure from unrighteous behavior. I’m talking about the truth of life’s mysteries like how we got here and where we’re going.
Okay, I see. I don’t think finite humans are capable of understanding such mysteries accurately without the information being revealed by the Creator.
 
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