Young women leaving religion more than young men.

[ppp]

Not to become the mansplaining religious too conservative for his own good advocate here, but sometimes discretion and tact is more useful than the conquest battle march. It has been my experience that some people truly enjoy putting some types of people in their place. I don't know what this world is coming to, I don't trust it all to be certain, and although I prefer standing on the number 3 of my previous post, I can't help but to at least make mention of what we ALL already know to be true.

Is there by chance a chance for diplomacy between the genders? One inch a mile then 20 more demanded has been status quo for human interaction for as long as I remember, so it makes me wonder where this is all heading. If it's not between races, it's between sexes, and if not sexes it's between political parties, and if not political parties it's between the nations and religions. Just let me know if or when I should beef up my arms, because at the moment my strongest defense is a heart.

You didn't say anything in those two paragraph. Just a bunch of innuendo, implications with no foundations,and pronouns with no reference to originating nouns. Seems to me that you are just trying to goad people without commiting your self to saying anything of substance.

 

[Muffled]

Maybe after murdering their own children via abortion they couldn't in good conscince enter a church without repentance.

 

[ppp]

*staff edit*

No one is compelling you to communicate with me. If you are unwilling or unable to lay out direct statements and then hold your self accountable for defending those statements to the rest of us, then just block me. And keep blathering.

 

[Balthazzar]

Hell, you don't have to go back to the 1800s. Women didn't gain the right to get credit in their own names until 1974 in the US. Marital rape was not criminalized until 1976. And in 20 freaking 19, I had to pose as the partner of a 30 year old friend so that the doctor would pay attention to get her tubes tied. I hope I am amplifying more than mansplaining, but yes. Irritating.

Let me try again. I was raised by a single mother with two kids who was active in the woman's rights movement of the 1970's. She was my backbone. She died in 2016 and I know damn well how some people treat woman like her. You want to know my stance I'm in this and for the long haul and I don't really give flying **** if your impressed, unimpressed, if your a man, a woman, gay, bi ... I don't care. If I need to bear arms over this while they are leading us all, I need to know.

(.)

 

[ppp]

Let me try again. I was raised by a single mother with two kids who was active in the woman's rights movement of the 1970's. She was my backbone. She died in 2016 and I know damn well how some people treat woman like her. You want to know my stance I'm in this and for the long haul and I don't really give flying **** if your impressed, unimpressed, if your a man, a woman, gay, bi ... I don't care. If I need to bear arms over this while they are leading us all, I need to know.

(.)

I am glad you like your mom.
Your choice over whether to own a gun is a choice that you have to make for yourself.

 

[Balthazzar]

I am glad you like your mom.
Your choice over whether to own a gun is a choice that you have to make for yourself.

I'm wearing my seatbelt for now.

 

[Viker]

This could turn out to be a good thing. As many churches have become vapid political rallies or just basically houses of emptiness. Many churches seem to want women to go backwards to a time they couldn't vote, own property, have their own credit cards, decide their life's trajectory on their own, etc. And, there's just not much to offer them anyway. I see this shift away from church as a positive.

 

[ppp]

I'm wearing my seatbelt for now.

*shrug*

 

[Balthazzar]

*shrug*

I walked into a tobacco outlet once, went to the magazine rack and grabbed a reader. When I took it to the counter, the lady working picked it up, looked at me and said: "Finally, a peer."

It was a Hustler letters, which was later confiscated at the desk of a residential recovery center for men. I was in rehab back in 2001 with a professed Bush advisor, for the younger one not the older. Anyway, It's nothing personal. It's just not my world anymore. At this point, I'm at the mercy of circumstance.

 

[ppp]

I walked into a tobacco outlet once, went to the magazine rack and grabbed a reader. When I took it to the counter, the lady working picked it up, looked at me and said: "Finally, a peer."

It was a Hustler letters, which was later confiscated at the desk of a residential recovery center for men. I was in rehab back in 2001 with a professed Bush advisor, for the younger one not the older. Anyway, It's nothing personal. It's just not my world anymore. At this point, I'm at the mercy of circumstance.

You didn't say anything in those two paragraph. Just a bunch of innuendo, implications with no foundations,and pronouns with no reference to originating nouns. Seems to me that you are just trying to goad people without committing your self to saying anything of substance.

 

[Balthazzar]

You didn't say anything in those two paragraph. Just a bunch of innuendo, implications with no foundations,and pronouns with no reference to originating nouns. Seems to me that you are just trying to goad people without committing your self to saying anything of substance.

I was just bragging about being old enough to buy Hustler Letters and confessing recovery which leaves me without much credence in the political arena, hence the seat belt reference and being at the mercy of circumstance. Beyond this, I won't be alive by probably 30 years, so again it's not my world. It is my gen Z son's world and his peers, and also generation Alpha's world, and being that I'm reaching my mid 50's, I truly don't understand where this world is heading, so once more ... I'm sitting this one out. It's not my world anymore. The younger generations know and understand their needs far better than I do or ever could.

 

[ppp]

I was just bragging

yawn

 

[Balthazzar]

yawn

Ok, so maybe it was a simple confession, and the bragging comment was aimed more precisely as humor, but I can see you're not up for humor at the moment.

Music can be exciting

My aunt loves this one and owns it like a champ. I love her dearly, too.

 

[John D. Brey]

Women are still treated like children. It is not uncommon for a man at a restaurant to call the waitress "Honey." Mansplaining is so annoying. Have you noticed how male presidential candidates are referred to by their last names (ie. Trump, Obama) but females are referred to by their first names (i.e. Kamala, Hillary) as if they are a friend or child, and not a serious candidate? Have you ever had someone presumptuously make a decision or choice for you without consulting you? It's so irritating!

In the1800s, which was really not that long ago, women literally had the legal status of a child. Women were generally required to obtain their husband's consent to make purchases, sign contracts, or conduct business. Women could not sue or be sued in their own right; any legal action had to be initiated through their husbands.They had to "obey" their husbands, who usually made all the family decisions and controlled all the financial matters, and even made personal decisions for their wives like what they should wear or ordering for them at restaurants. Men commonly "disciplined" their wives, and this was considered not only their right, but their responsibility. They had no voting rights and were excluded from most professions and public roles, reinforcing dependence.

Since you're a woman of faith, and since Judaism has practiced these things even more religiously than Christianity, how would you explain the genesis, nature, and historical proliferation, of the gender-dynamics you note above?

Has there ever been in history a culture within which gender did not operate in this way [nature/culture informed by biology, gender, sex] to produce so-called natural sex [between a male and a female]? I wish to put forth the suggestion that early Christianity is just such a culture. Indeed, I will propose that the most current dilemmas of feminist theory reproduce dialogues within Western culture that go back to its origins in the split between rabbinic Judaism and the hegemonic Christian tradition. Early Christianity demonstrates an awareness of precisely the ways that gender and sex (both the differences of bodies and sexual practice/desire) conspire to produce a juridical conception, which Christianity itself resists. . . Early rabbinic Judaism is fully committed to a completely naturalized "sex." The division between Christianity and early Judaism is reproduced in the split between different schools of feminist theory in our time . . ..​

​

Talmudic Scholar Daniel Boyarin, Gender.​

John

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Mansplaining is so annoying.

It is, but its hardly exclusive to women. They do it to, to men and eachother. I use my own terms, one for men and one for women, words that are harsh to reflect how unwanted and annoying unsolicited "advice" is, especially when it's bad, like the lady who told me I need to die my strawberry blonde hair to get a green dye to hold, but that brand of die just last very long according to many reviews.

Have you noticed how male presidential candidates are referred to by their last names (ie. Trump, Obama) but females are referred to by their first names (i.e. Kamala, Hillary)

Hillary is a necessity and we even started saying Bill more due to the need to clarify. And when I see campaign stuff I see Harris.
And, of course, those I have mostly using Kamala were also fond of making it a point to say Barrack Hussein Obama, often emphasising the middle name. And that group's a bunch of bigots who frequently don't like anyone who isn't like them.

Have you ever had someone presumptuously make a decision or choice for you without consulting you? It's so irritating!

Even before I transitioned it happened quite a bit (especially in healthcare when I've had to be very persistent amd even invoke patient's rights when serious symptoms weren't being considered and inappropriately dismissed).
Now, what does any of this have to do with the OP? As patriarchal and misogynist as the Bible and organized Christianity have been, a long term trend is that women have generally been more religious than men. I even came across a book recently that I want to read that explores why atheism is stereotyped as a Western, white man's thing (the author is an African female) (alas I don't remember the title).
But that's now apparently changing. I think it may have to do with women breaking free of rigid gender roles and being less dependent on a man for food and a roof over her head, and the men who are taking offense, feel their masculinity is threatened and want women "back in their place" (like the Gamergate pukes).
Basically what often happens when a repressed group becomes empowered. We're hitting a point where more consistently boys who wanna be boys can't get a girl because she can make her own money now and support herself. Men aren't entitled to women, and this is becoming more socially present.
So women are leaving the garbage telling them they are untrustable, sinful harlots and must submit to their husbands while the men who still feel entitled to rule over women are sticking with doctrine that supports that.
It wouldn't be surprising or interesting (especially as it's become more tolerated for people to criticize Christianity and the Church) if the historic trends didn't exist.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Since you're a woman of faith, and since Judaism has practiced these things even more religiously than Christianity, how would you explain the genesis, nature, and historical proliferation, of the gender-dynamics you note above?

6,000 years ago, most of the world had matriarchal cultures. But the Indo-Europeans were patriarchal. As they successfully spread over Eurasia, they brought that patriarchal culture with them.

Has there ever been in history a culture within which gender did not operate in this way [nature/culture informed by biology, gender, sex] to produce so-called natural sex [between a male and a female]?​

With all due respect to Daniel Boyarin and his PhD in Talmudic Studies, any undergraduate college student who has taken Anthropology 100 knows that , there have been, and despite colonization by westerners, still are matriarchal cultures.

The Mosuo, a small ethnic group in southwestern China, practice a matrilineal society where women hold significant authority in family life. Inheritance is passed down through the female line, and family households are headed by women. One of the oddities of the Mosuo is their practice of "walking marriages" (or tisese), where men and women engage in non-cohabiting relationships without formal marriage. Children stay with the mother's family, and fathers have little role in raising them. Women's economic and social power, particularly in managing family property, is what makes them particularly notable, even iconoclastic toward Western assumptions like yours.

I wish to put forth the suggestion that early Christianity is just such a culture.​

In its earliest decades, Christians did indeed rebel against the Graeco-Roman misogyny. Women had prominent roles as deaconesses and missionaries, even one Apostle, Junia.

But that quickly changed. By 50 CE, Paul was already writing, ""Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." Also "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

And so the slow decline back into misogyny began.

The anonymous author of 1 Timothy wrote around 63 CE, ""A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Also around 63 CE, Paul wrote, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

And so the poison was swallowed. It just needed time to take effect. There is no evidence of any woman apostle after Junia, or any woman ordained as presbyter or bishop. As the church institutionalized, women's power was curtailed more and more, especially in the 5th century. By the seventh century, deaconesses were no longer ordained.

Although I'm a long, long, long ways from being Christian, as a woman I support the liberation of women worldwide in every venue. It is very comforting to me to see that there are those in the church pushing for the restoration of the female diaconate. More churches are now allowing female senior pastors, and even churches that are opposed to women's ordination have substantially increased women's power i.e. as theologians.

 

[John D. Brey]

6,000 years ago, most of the world had matriarchal cultures. But the Indo-Europeans were patriarchal. As they successfully spread over Eurasia, they brought that patriarchal culture with them.

With all due respect to Daniel Boyarin and his PhD in Talmudic Studies, any undergraduate college student who has taken Anthropology 100 knows that , there have been, and despite colonization by westerners, still are matriarchal cultures.

The Mosuo, a small ethnic group in southwestern China, practice a matrilineal society where women hold significant authority in family life. Inheritance is passed down through the female line, and family households are headed by women. One of the oddities of the Mosuo is their practice of "walking marriages" (or tisese), where men and women engage in non-cohabiting relationships without formal marriage. Children stay with the mother's family, and fathers have little role in raising them. Women's economic and social power, particularly in managing family property, is what makes them particularly notable, even iconoclastic toward Western assumptions like yours.

In its earliest decades, Christians did indeed rebel against the Graeco-Roman misogyny. Women had prominent roles as deaconesses and missionaries, even one Apostle, Junia.

But that quickly changed. By 50 CE, Paul was already writing, ""Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." Also "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

And so the slow decline back into misogyny began.

The anonymous author of 1 Timothy wrote around 63 CE, ""A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Also around 63 CE, Paul wrote, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

And so the poison was swallowed. It just needed time to take effect. There is no evidence of any woman apostle after Junia, or any woman ordained as presbyter or bishop. As the church institutionalized, women's power was curtailed more and more, especially in the 5th century. By the seventh century, deaconesses were no longer ordained.

Although I'm a long, long, long ways from being Christian, as a woman I support the liberation of women worldwide in every venue. It is very comforting to me to see that there are those in the church pushing for the restoration of the female diaconate. More churches are now allowing female senior pastors, and even churches that are opposed to women's ordination have substantially increased women's power i.e. as theologians.

Thank you for a thoughtful response.




John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is, but its hardly exclusive to women. They do it to, to men and eachother.

Of course. But you have to admit, men do this far more often than women, just as men murder more often than women, or engage in reckless behavior more often than women. (And we women have our own distinctive flaws.)

Basically what often happens when a repressed group becomes empowered. We're hitting a point where more consistently boys who wanna be boys can't get a girl because she can make her own money now and support herself. Men aren't entitled to women, and this is becoming more socially present.

You are absolutely correct here. More an more women are choosing to remain single rather than hitch their wagon to a man that is domineering, abusive, irresponsible, or simply assumes she will do the bulk of housework, childcare, and take on the emotional load. Now I'm not badmouthing men. There are plenty of men that are great. I think men in general are wonderful. But yeah, there are still simply too many man-childs out there.

So women are leaving the garbage telling them they are untrustable, sinful harlots and must submit to their husbands while the men who still feel entitled to rule over women are sticking with doctrine that supports that.
It wouldn't be surprising or interesting (especially as it's become more tolerated for people to criticize Christianity and the Church) if the historic trends didn't exist.

Right on!

 

[amorphous_constellation]

You are absolutely correct here. More an more women are choosing to remain single rather than hitch their wagon to a man that is domineering, abusive, irresponsible, or simply assumes she will do the bulk of housework, childcare, and take on the emotional load. Now I'm not badmouthing men. There are plenty of men that are great. I think men in general are wonderful. But yeah, there are still simply too many man-childs out there.

Well let me ask you, how does it play out in Judaism/the Jewish community nowadays? Is it going the same way as with the Christians, (since they are still the majority, I assume the thread is mainly about them), are the woman falling away from religion? If not, why? It would probably a serious problem in Judaism, since the religion is usually conferred by mothers, if I understand it correctly

History is long, and I think men have had periods where they behaved better and worse. I think maybe pop media trends contribute to the behavior of both men and women - what is portrayed on tv and in music at different times in american history? That affects things. Or is that mostly a reflection of what was happening in society?

Women aren't always angels either though , here's a quick story. I was around the timeclock at the end of the day once, and these 2 women were telling each other stories.. They were talking about some female coworker who was there long, long before I joined the job. I'd never heard of her, she must have quit many years ago. I was just off to the side listening

So what happened, apparently, was that she came to work bleeding.. and they had to call 911 to have her taken out of the factory, once they eventually noticed. She was in denial of this, however, and was acting like nothing was wrong. She was working her job, and other people noticed, according to this story they were telling. But what happened, apparently, is that I guess her drugged up son attacked her before she came in. Now these 2 woman at the time-clock.. their attitude was that this old coworker was crazy, and then they told each other other stories about her, and they were laughing about the stories. How do you explain that? I'm talking about the attitude they had - it seemed to have a tone of gossipy entertainment.. making fun of the unfortunate person. Rude, right? I don't know what's going on there psychologically.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

6,000 years ago, most of the world had matriarchal cultures. But the Indo-Europeans were patriarchal. As they successfully spread over Eurasia, they brought that patriarchal culture with them.

Eh, I don't know.. the romans, the greeks, the celts, the germans.. they had like goddesses and depictions of of them. And the celts and germans had like... seeresses and warrior woman, I think. That said, I'm sure most of the cultures back then had were generally more brutal in whatever ethical domains they had. But they didn't worship only the male side of things, I think they were trying to seek a balance at one time, even if they fell way short