Young women leaving religion more than young men.

[IndigoChild5559]

Well let me ask you, how does it play out in Judaism/the Jewish community nowadays? Is it going the same way as with the Christians, (since they are still the majority, I assume the thread is mainly about them), are the woman falling away from religion? If not, why? It would probably a serious problem in Judaism, since the religion is usually conferred by mothers, if I understand it correctly

Yes, the general exodus from organized religion is affecting us Jews too. According to at least one of the articles I read on the woman thing, it is happening in all religions. Since Judaism is a religion, I would deduce that the author was including Judaism in that.

Many of the things listed for reasons are certainly true of synagogues as well. We have our scandals. Trauma sometimes happens. Our rabbis are sometimes hypocrites. You get the idea.

In other cases, some of those reasons only apply to certain groups within Judaism. Certainly not all, but some synagogues definitely do treat women unequally from men including barring women from being rabbis, do have sexual rules that young people don't like, do teach that LGBT is a sin, you get the picture.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Eh, I don't know.. the romans, the greeks, the celts, the germans..

I am not so familiar with the celtic and germanic tribes. But I can tell you that the Romans and Greeks were deeply misogynistic.

Aristotle (384–322 BCE):
"The male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled." — Politics, Book 1, Part 5
"A female is, as it were, a mutilated male." — Generation of Animals, Book 2, Part 3

Plato (428–348 BCE):
"It is only males who are created directly by the gods and are given souls. Those who live rightly return to the stars, but those who are cowardly or lead unrighteous lives may, with reason, be supposed to have changed into the nature of women in the second generation." — Timaeus, 42b-c

Euripides (480–406 BCE) (though a playwright, his views reflect common sentiments):
"If only children could be got some other way, without the female sex! If women didn’t exist, human life would be rid of all its miseries." — Hippolytus, 616-618

Cato the Elder (234–149 BCE):
"If you allow them [women] to achieve complete equality with men, do you think they will be easier to live with? Not at all. Once they are your equals, they will be your superiors." — From Livy's History of Rome, Book 34
Juvenal (c. 55–140 CE):
"There is nothing that a woman will not permit herself to do; nothing that she deems shameful." — Satire VI
"Woman is a violent and uncontrolled animal, and it is useless to let go the reins and then expect her not to kick over the traces. You must keep her on a tight rein… Women are always setting something or other on fire: houses, cities, and kingdoms." — Satire VI

Seneca the Younger (c. 4 BCE–65 CE):
"When a woman loves, she must submit to one man, not to all men, and, further, to that one man as her master." — Consolation to Helvia, 18
Cicero (106–43 BCE):
"Our ancestors... decreed that all women, because of their weak intellects, should have a guardian to manage their affairs." — Pro Murena, 12.27

Plautus (c. 254–184 BCE):
"A woman is a greedy thing and selfish." — Mostellaria, Act 3, Scene 2

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I am not so familiar with the celtic and germanic tribes. But I can tell you that the Romans and Greeks were deeply misogynistic.

A name that popped in my head as I read your posts was Agrippina.. from when I read a book of Seneca's letters: Agrippina the Younger - Wikipedia

So there would have been various times in Rome where woman had powerful roles, but I'm curious on what kind of a character Agrippina was.. well, if she was Nero's mother, what part of Nero's character formation was affected by her? I don't readily recall all the details of the story, except that I think maybe people didn't mess with her at times.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A name that popped in my head as I read your posts was Agrippina.. from when I read a book of Seneca's letters: Agrippina the Younger - Wikipedia

So there would have been various times in Rome where woman had powerful roles, but I'm curious on what kind of a character Agrippina was.. well, if she was Nero's mother, what part of Nero's character formation was affected by her? I don't readily recall all the details of the story, except that I think maybe people didn't mess with her at times.

There are always exceptions to every rule. The trick is to pay attention to the top of the bell shaped curve, not the deviations.

I mean come on. In Greek culture, women were so less than a man, that the only reason you had intercourse with a woman was to create heirs. The IDEALIZED sexual relationship was with a boy. It was a society that so hated women, that pedophilia was preferable.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

There are always exceptions to every rule. The trick is to pay attention to the top of the bell shaped curve, not the deviations.

Yeah I mean I don't often find the behavior of males in history as being good, when they had the power they had, though I think that at times, social forces were trying to bring things into balance, and they failed. I think that optimally, there should be power balances, without blame. I mean, what else is there to really say

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Where are they going? They appear to be becoming politically active.

The reverse trend is seen in young men. Traditionally, men have been more active in politics than women, but they are leaving politics.

ugh, I think might be too tired to take a walk before I go to work.. so I might as well blather a little more

Well I think one answer to 'where are they going,' at least in the western world, is that they are dating. Religion limits that, secular life does not. If society remained religious in the contemporary Christian sense, I think that partner selection would remain broadened. So I would suppose, that women are now dating a lot more than they were before. In a technical sense, dating is filtering - so therefore, one might posit that the western world is now undergoing a heavy evolutionary filtering, under a supposedly secular onus. Each filtered selection on a dating app, is a kind of evolutionary selective act. I assume as well, that in the modern context of dating technology, it gives women more of a final say in actual selection

Men might be remaining with religion, because they don't like this, and they want partner selection to remain broad. Therefore, perhaps one might argue that this would allow presumably undesirable types of men - perhaps those that are considered too aggressive, not especially skilled, or are perhaps 'anti-social' in some other way, to acquire partners more often. Though, the counter-question is on whether something is being lost by cutting these males out, if these are in fact the ones being filtered out. Though I am not entirely sure about exactly what qualities are being filtered for

 

[IndigoChild5559]

ugh, I think might be too tired to take a walk before I go to work.. so I might as well blather a little more

Well I think one answer to 'where are they going,' at least in the western world, is that they are dating. Religion limits that, secular life does not.

I don't think you understood the question, which btw why hypothetical. I gave the answer that the articles provided. The question was, if they aren't investing time in the church, where are they investing their time, and the answer was politics, because the number of young women working for political parties etc., has gone UP. It has nothing to do with dating. You can date if you are involved in a church. You can date if you aren't involved in a church.

The rules regarding sex really don't make a difference as to dating. For as long as I've been an adult, people have ROUTINELY ignored these teachings. But they don't appreciate being TOLD that it's a sin, which is one of the reasons they leave, both men and women.

If anything, women are dating less. Being voluntarily celibate is the new thing. This is true for both men and women, but much more so for women.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If anything, women are dating less. Being voluntarily celibate is the new thing. This is true for both men and women, but much more so for women.

Could you explain some of your reasoning here

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Could you explain some of your reasoning here

I'm saying, women are not dating more since leaving religion, which was your claim. I'm saying women are actually dating less, because more of them are choosing to be voluntarily celibate.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'm saying, women are not dating more since leaving religion, which was your claim. I'm saying women are actually dating less, because more of them are choosing to be voluntarily celibate.

Your claim is clear, I was asking about the reasoning behind it

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your claim is clear, I was asking about the reasoning behind it

Behind what? Why many women are choosing to be voluntarily celibate? That's an entirely different topic, but I will give it a very quick summation. I will have to make some generalization, and that means there will be exceptions. The things I'm about will be statistically true, meaning that I'm referring to the top of the bell shaped curve. It does NOT mean that it is true of 100% of women.

Some of it is that they are simply sick to death of hookup culture. Women are wired a little bit differently than men. Men can have casual sex the way they can pee. Women connect sex to EMOTIONAL intimacy. When a woman has sex, it releases all sorts of hormones such as oxytocin that bond her to the person she is having sex with. This is why you hear so many stories about "Well, it was supposed to be just sex, but I fell in love." Again, these are only generalizations. There are men who are also dissatisfied with hookup culture, who also want more than just casual sex. But this is more typical of women than men.

Some of it is what men want these days from a sexual partner. Porn has become incredibly common. Women do watch porn, but nearly to the degree that men watch it. Porn has trained men to expect and desire certain things: men expect women to shave which makes them look like children, expect anal sex, expect to use choking, etc., etc. Most women do not want these things. They do it because they feel pressured into it. Again, there are some women who are truly fine with it. We are talking here about women in general. And quite frankly, these women are getting sick and tired of having to do things they don't like.

Let me give you a scenario that I have heard so many times. She goes out on a date with him. They go back to his place or hers for drinks. He puts his hand on her thigh. She removes it. It happens again and she removes it again. But he is persistent. At this point, she realizes this is getting out of hand, and becomes scared. It is obvious he isn't accepting NO as an answer. She is afraid if she puts up a fuss, that it will get very ugly very fast. So she acquiesces rather than end up beaten or worse.

After enough of those experiences, whether it happens one time or ten times, women simply decide it just isn't worth it to continue dating.

Next, women are becoming voluntarily celibate because they are tired of relationships that are unequal, where they become the mommy for a man-child, or where he is emotionally or physically abusive. How many frogs should you have to kiss to find a prince? Not every woman has a good "picker," and after a while, they just get tired of frogs.

And finally, there are women who are religious, and want to wait for marriage. Since that is no longer the culture, and dating relationships now imply having sex, these women simply stop dating.

I'm gonna give you a few sample sites. It's just a start. I have read extensively on this topic, and I can't reproduces that for you in an online forum. If you want more, you would do well to research this more on your own, so that you can look for whatever specifics you personally want.

***************
"The rise of voluntary celibacy: ‘Most of the sex I’ve had, I wish I hadn’t bothered’"

The rise of voluntary celibacy: ‘Most of the sex I’ve had, I wish I hadn’t bothered’

More and more people are choosing to go without sex. And, in many cases, they’ve never been happier

www.theguardian.com

"A lot of women don’t enjoy hookup culture—so why do we force ourselves to participate?"

A lot of women don’t enjoy hookup culture—so why do we force ourselves to participate?

"My girlfriends and I were top students, scientists, artists and leaders. We could advocate for anything—except for our own bodies."

qz.com

"Frustrated with hookup culture, Gen Z women are swearing off sex and entering their 'celibacy era'"

Frustrated with hookup culture, Gen Z women are swearing off sex and entering their 'celibacy era'

Gen Z women are 'taking back their power' by voluntarily quitting sex for nonreligious reasons. Some experts think it may not be the right choice.

www.businessinsider.com

"The dark side of hookup culture for women"

The dark side of hookup culture for women

As college students, many of us have experienced or are familiar with hookup culture. Hookup culture is based on sexual intimacy paired with outward rejection of any emotional connection to accompany that physical relationship. The prevalence of this culture for college students can be...

www.michigandaily.com

"Risk avoidance appears to be a particularly common motivation for women to pursue voluntary celibacy today. "

Is Voluntary Celibacy on the Rise?

How common is it for people to take a break from sex and dating? Why do so many people today seem to be doing it? And are they happy with their decision to abstain?

www.psychologytoday.com

"In addition to religious or spiritual reasons for choosing celibacy, New York City sex therapist Stephen Snyder, MD, author of Love Worth Making: How to Have Ridiculously Great Sex in a Long-Lasting Relationship, says there is a trend among heterosexual women whose relationships with men have left them discouraged and annoyed. "

More and More People Are Swearing Off Sex, Here's Why

The topic of celibacy and the choice to abstain from sex has gained a lot of buzz in the past several months as more and more young people are voluntarily taking a break from doing the deed. But why? And what are the implications for mental health?

www.verywellmind.com

"All of the abstinent women in my research talked about how the main driver of their abstinence was the fact that having sex with men felt like it would be too much of a risk. The women described a feeling that having sex would be tantamount to a loss of self."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277539523001620#:~:text=All%20of%20the%20abstinent%20women,to%20a%20loss%20of%20self.

 

[crossfire]

Your claim is clear, I was asking about the reasoning behind it

Look up #boysober

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And finally, there are women who are religious, and want to wait for marriage. Since that is no longer the culture,

I'm too burnt after work to comment much on the rest of your post right now, but I would say that this loops back to the thread topic statements.. about their supposedly being these excess males in church now. Well then, why don't these women go back to them? What's going on with that? Or are these men corrupt as well.. or what.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm too burnt after work to comment much on the rest of your post right now, but I would say that this loops back to the thread topic statements.. about their supposedly being these excess males in church now. Well then, why don't these women go back to them? What's going on with that? Or are these men corrupt as well.. or what.

When someone leaves a religious institutions, they usually don't leave without taking at least some of it with them. It is entirely possible that a woman who left a church due to being raped or just being fed up with the hypocrisy, might still hold to the morals it taught.

 

[Alien826]

"BuT yOuR fUtUrE hUsBaNd MiGhT wAnT cHiLdReN!"

Ugh. Seriously, big props for doing this for your friend.

Just for the record, in the late 1960s I had the same thing in reverse when I was trying to get vasectomy.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'm gonna give you a few sample sites. It's just a start. I have read extensively on this topic, and I can't reproduces that for you in an online forum. If you want more, you would do well to research this more on your own,

alright.. I took the time to read through 3 of those, but I realized that these specific issues aren't maybe addressing my more broad, meta-concern regarding the overall question / social issue, as it relates to religion and the future of society. I understand that feminism plays a role in the modern environment, and you want to show me why or how. I am a bit confused by it, as it looks like it has a bit of a technical side, but I think it is perhaps a mechanism that is at work below broader and larger social structures / trends.

So in other words, I think there are perhaps larger forces behind why people are / or aren't dating, behind why they are or aren't celibate, behind why they are feminist etc. I think there are major environmental alterations that occurred, whether via technology, modern attitudes, or the space ratio in a world with billions of people. And religion, which is supposed to mediate the micro level to the macro, perhaps disintegrates as well, somewhere in there.

Christianity, and perhaps other popular religions, has went through a cycle all itself, of valuing either marriage or abstinence. There were periods where I think it lionized becoming a monk, or nun. Modern, post-tv / pop culture iterations of Christianity valued marriage, I think, at least for a sustained time. A perhaps strange retrograde arc has lately appeared, however, that wants to reach back in time, through the veil / medium of modern technology / attitudes, to try and once again attain this sense of celibate purity. Perhaps partially in reaction to the devaluing of religion

But all of that aside, my concern is what all this means for the future of our western society. The minutiae of how college students feel when experiencing the present phenomena is one thing, a critical sociological analysis in another. There are real ramifications to all of this, to the devaluing of marriage, whatever its cause, and to replacement levels perhaps going below 2 births a woman, and to an extremely high divorce rate whatever its cause. And to the failure of basic family formation

 

[IndigoChild5559]

alright.. I took the time to read through 3 of those, but I realized that these specific issues aren't maybe addressing my more broad, meta-concern regarding the overall question / social issue,

No offense, my friend, but I think I've spent way more than a reasonable amount of time on this. I'm not really sure what is driving you, but I'm not willing to put in more time trying to figure it out. You have come across as a very reasonable and thoughtful person -- I'm sure that you are more than capable of delving into this further on your own if that's what you want. I look forward to future discussions on other topics.

 

[viole]

Maybe after murdering their own children via abortion they couldn't in good conscince enter a church without repentance.

Well, at least they guaranteed them an eternity of bliss without risk. What greater gift could a mother give to her child? A risk free eternity in heaven, with Jesus and stuff. What could outperform that?

I call that a loving mother. Sacrificing herself for the eternal good of her child.
Why the animosity? I think it is touching, if you believe in standard salvation theory.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

When someone leaves a religious institutions, they usually don't leave without taking at least some of it with them. It is entirely possible that a woman who left a church due to being raped or just being fed up with the hypocrisy, might still hold to the morals it taught.

My wife never attended church after sunday school, claiming hypocrisy probably because her father beat her. Also she was a pragmatist and materialist and found it difficult to believe in God as a spirit she could not see. She received Jesus as Lord and Savior after contacting a demon through a ouija board which made her realize spirits existed.

 

[Muffled]

Well, at least they guaranteed them an eternity of bliss without risk. What greater gift could a mother give to her child? A risk free eternity in heaven, with Jesus and stuff. What could outperform that?

I call that a loving mother. Sacrificing herself for the eternal good of her child.
Why the animosity? I think it is touching, if you believe in standard salvation theory.

Ciao

- viole

I do not believe children automatically go to Heaven if they die young. I believe they are reincarnated.