Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[Willamena]

you do realize that there are only wicked and evil people because of god, yeah? you fail.

why would i fear god when i know he does not exist?

So, you're just mouthing off? If you've nothing constructive to contribute to this thread, try another.

 

[Beaudreaux]

So, you're just mouthing off? If you've nothing constructive to contribute to this thread, try another.

I don't think any of us should sit in judgement of who should and should not contribute to a thread. No rules have been broken and he IS pointing out what he believes the holes in others' arguments are. Sure maybe he starts too many posts with "You do realize..." but that's no reason to shun a person.

 

[ChristineES]

you'd call me arrogant, yet you have the gall to claim that jesus exists, or that god exists, with no proof or evidence of any kind.

9-10s_Penguin is right, I never said that. I said that I believe that God exists and that I believe Jesus exists, too.
I shouldn't have said what I did, though. I do get tired of people saying that they know something for sure when they don't (my husband does it all the time but that isn't your fault). It wasn't personal.

 

[kingsherald]

why would i fear god when i know he does not exist?

Do you really have knowledge that He does not exist? Really? Prove to me that He does not exist...

The Bible says that all men are wired knowing that there is a God who created everything, because His eternal power and Godhead are displayed in the creation. But they do not like to retain God in their knowledge. Their ways are evil, and they do not want to come to the light, lest their deeds should be exposed. God is our Creator, Sustainer, Law Giver and Judge.

You have a strong faith in your unbelief. You have a god also- the god of unbelief. Why do you believe in him?

 

[kingsherald]

Hold on. You have to choose. Do you want him to be good, loving and merciful? Or do you want him to mete out justice?

It isn't my choice. God has declared Himself to be both Just and Merciful. It isn't a matter of my opinion. Man didn't create God. God created man. Your concept of love is erroneous. Loving evil would make God unjust. Loving evil would make God evil. Perish the thought!

If he hates it so much, why not just destroy it in the beginning?

Here's one reason: God is primarily concerned with glorifying Himself that He should be esteemed for who He actually is in reality. Without the fall of man, His redemptive love could not be manifested to His created angels and men. This whole aspect of God's character could not be understood without the entrance of evil.

That's quite an overly elaborate scheme for a god who can do anything. Is he a James Bond villain, by chance?

God alone is wise. We are not wiser than God. You ever see an elaborate spider's web, freshly built? That is quite elaborate too, and beautiful.

How did he punish us through Jesus's suffering? And no, that's not love. That's unnecessary cruelty.

He did not punish the sins of everyone through Jesus' suffering. Only the sins of the elect. There is forgiveness with God, that He may be feared.

He chose a people for Himself before the world was; they were in His mind and He set His love on them, not because of anything meritorious in them, but of His choosing alone. So, now, in time, He sends Jesus to die for their sins, that He might be Just and the Justifier of those who have faith in Jesus.

There is a legal transaction that takes place: The sins of His people were transferred to Christ at the Cross, and Christ was punished for those sins. And the righteousness of Christ is transferred to His people, to all that the Father gave Him. And just as Christ was raised from the dead, so also will His people be raised from the dead to life, their sins having been punished, are no more punishable. The resurrection further signifies that God the Father accepted His sacrifice.

God's justice necessitates the death of Jesus Christ, otherwise none would enter into His holy heaven. The only way to say it is unnecessary is to fashion a false god in the vain imaginations of man, a god who is unjust, and just looks the other way.

 

[kingsherald]

Torturing someone else does not make the wicked good. Not even if the other person tortured is a God-man.

You are correct and let me explain: God keeps records of sins committed. Christ's suffering for the sins of His people clears their bad records, yet in itself does nothing for their bad hearts. Although, knowing your sins are forgiven and will never be counted against you ever again has an unburdening influence on you, to be sure. Yet, something more is needed - the gift of the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies and cleanses from within, to increase holiness in His justified people, that they may bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, which glorifies God.

Your formulation condemns the God of the Bible as evil. The God of the Bible lets sinners - i.e. the "wicked" - go free. The fact that He does this because of the atonement of Christ doesn't change that he does do this.

There is a punishment for every crime, and Christ has endured the punishment for all the crimes of all His chosen people from all time- there on the Cross. How is it evil to let the prisoner go free, seeing the law has no more claims on him? That is justice.

If there was no hope of eternal life, man would be driven to despair, looking forward to nothing but an impending judgment and the lake of fire, with its everlasting burnings and torments. Is it evil for God to save sinners? I call that grace and mercy and love.

So God's love can be bought? This hardly sounds just or good.

You have it backwards. It is not that God's love can be bought, but that Christ purchased His elect out of slavery because of God's love for them. The whole redemption and salvation of His people comes forth because of God's love towards them from before the foundation of the world.

 

[PolyHedral]

How is it evil to let the prisoner go free, seeing the law has no more claims on him? That is justice.

It is not just at all; The prisoner has not repaid the debt he owes, and has got someone entirely innocent to take his place.

God keeps records of sins committed. Christ's suffering for the sins of His people clears their bad records...

Why can God not clear their records directly? Why is Christ's sacrifice necessary?

 

[bain-druie]

I don't make intellectual compromises with my faith; I believe that if I have to start segmenting my personality in order to hold on to something, that thing needs to go, and the harmony of my Self needs to stay. So while I believe many things that so far science has had nothing to say about, if one day I see proof and/or evidence that compels me to choose between intellectual integrity and my pet belief in, say, faeries, then the faeries gotta go.

 

[kingsherald]

It is not just at all; The prisoner has not repaid the debt he owes, and has got someone entirely innocent to take his place.

You are forgetting that his debt is to God alone, and therefore God decides what is a valid form of payment.

Why can God not clear their records directly? Why is Christ's sacrifice necessary?

Why is the sky blue? Because God decided not to make it green.

 

[PolyHedral]

Why is the sky blue? Because God decided not to make it green.

Your metaphor refuses to be decoded. How are arbitrary choices related to the redundancy of Jesus?

 

[kingsherald]

Your metaphor refuses to be decoded. How are arbitrary choices related to the redundancy of Jesus?

You are right about asking for reasons why the Cross is necessary. There are reasons, (which suddenly come to my mind) and they should be explained, although the reasons are many and probably would take a large volume to cover. But here's a sampling...

The cross of Christ demonstrates the righteousness of God. He must punish sin whereever it is found, even if it is found on His Well-Beloved Son who Himself was without sin, yet in God's plan took the sins of others upon His own body on the tree.

The cross of Christ makes an open spectacle of the enemies of Christ, how they murdered by an accursed death the only truly righteous Man who ever lived on the earth. A Man who was righteous because He was indeed God-in-human-flesh. The Son of God was murdered by His creatures though He was without sin.

This ought to drive home the point of the total depravity of man and man's need for a Savior. The Cross is also an indictment against the whole of humanity that they are sinners and can do nothing to save themselves. Otherwise the Cross would not be necessary, to save God's elect.

The Cross was a fulfillment of Divine promise and prophecies of God's prophets. And since God is a God who keeps His Word, He had to send Jesus to die on the cross. He obligated Himself to do so by promise to men such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, King David and others. So at the Cross He also proved Himself faithful to His Word.

All of these things glorify God moreso than a quiet transaction done in secret. God is firstmost concerned with His glory, that He should be glorified, and in His determination the Cross brings Him the most glory in the greatest display of His attributes that He desires to be made known.

 

[PolyHedral]

The cross of Christ demonstrates the righteousness of God. He must punish sin whereever it is found, even if it is found on His Well-Beloved Son who Himself was without sin, yet in God's plan took the sins of others upon His own body on the tree.

Then how can you argue He is just? Any punishment that could be considered "just" should be given to the person who has done something wrong. It should not be given it to an innocent.

And the more general idea of "sin" being transferable sounds like it would logically lead to sillyness. For instance, imagine if Alice decided to take everyone's sin upon herself, and so save everyone. However, just before Alice dies, Bob takes her sin upon him. Before Bob dies, Charlie does the same thing...

The cross of Christ makes an open spectacle of the enemies of Christ, how they murdered by an accursed death the only truly righteous Man who ever lived on the earth. A Man who was righteous because He was indeed God-in-human-flesh. The Son of God was murdered by His creatures though He was without sin.

For entirely political and, in context, sensible reasons. God is making people people and getting annoyed when they act like people.

This ought to drive home the point of the total depravity of man and man's need for a Savior. The Cross is also an indictment against the whole of humanity that they are sinners and can do nothing to save themselves. Otherwise the Cross would not be necessary, to save God's elect.

Save themselves from what? God's punishment, which can be metered out as God wants, with no obligation on His part to punish those who have done nothing wrong?

The Cross was a fulfillment of Divine promise and prophecies of God's prophets. And since God is a God who keeps His Word, He had to send Jesus to die on the cross. He obligated Himself to do so by promise to men such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, King David and others. So at the Cross He also proved Himself faithful to His Word.

But why did He make those promises?

All of these things glorify God moreso than a quiet transaction done in secret. God is firstmost concerned with His glory, that He should be glorified, and in His determination the Cross brings Him the most glory in the greatest display of His attributes that He desires to be made known.

Then God is egotistical, generally considered a bad thing. I'm surprised that you want to worship a God who puts his ego above a life.

 

[Ozzie]

I was a Christian as a teen. Like many Christians, I started ro have questions about my faith, both in concept and experience. Like everyone who holds a belief, I also did not want to stop believing. As a result, I started doing some of the most intense and ultimately silly mental gymnastics of my life to resolve my questions.

I believe this happens here on RF as well. In a few recent threads, people were arguing the omniscience/free will problem and went so far as to say that maybe there's no such thing as time.

My question to the forum, both to current and former theists is "what is the biggest intellectual compromise you have made or are currently making to keep believing your faith?"

None. And I could speak for most Buddhists that intellectual compromise is not necessary for faith obtained from experience. The Buddha spoke a whole lot of common sense actually.

 

[waitasec]

All of these things glorify God moreso than a quiet transaction done in secret. God is firstmost concerned with His glory, that He should be glorified, and in His determination the Cross brings Him the most glory in the greatest display of His attributes that He desires to be made known.

the god in the bible is a jealous god
tyrannical, masochistic and cruel.

ANY man made god would say, 'there is nothing good inside man except their faith in me being in them...'
circular logic...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are correct and let me explain: God keeps records of sins committed. Christ's suffering for the sins of His people clears their bad records, yet in itself does nothing for their bad hearts. Although, knowing your sins are forgiven and will never be counted against you ever again has an unburdening influence on you, to be sure. Yet, something more is needed - the gift of the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies and cleanses from within, to increase holiness in His justified people, that they may bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, which glorifies God.

Your explanation explains nothing. Even with all this, we're still left with what you say is evil: an unjust god who lets the wicked go free.

There is a punishment for every crime, and Christ has endured the punishment for all the crimes of all His chosen people from all time- there on the Cross. How is it evil to let the prisoner go free, seeing the law has no more claims on him? That is justice.

No, it's not justice. When punishment is meted out on the undeserving, it ceases to be punishment. Instead of correcting the injustice of the original crime, it leaves it uncorrected and creates a brand new injustice.

If there was no hope of eternal life, man would be driven to despair, looking forward to nothing but an impending judgment and the lake of fire, with its everlasting burnings and torments. Is it evil for God to save sinners? I call that grace and mercy and love.

... but not justice. Hey - I'm not saying anything about how God has to be; I'm only looking for consistency between your own claims, and pointing out that the claims you make have implications of their own.

You have it backwards. It is not that God's love can be bought, but that Christ purchased His elect out of slavery because of God's love for them. The whole redemption and salvation of His people comes forth because of I don't see how this goes against what I said. In what you describe, God's love can be bought: when you say that "Christ purchased His elect out of slavery", who exactly do you think he purchased them from?