Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[PolyHedral]

I'm saying that all the reasons I can see to consider suffering to be bad are rooted in the human condition, and the human condition is not universal.

Is there some condition where pain is a good thing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is there some condition where pain is a good thing?

A condition where my own pain is a good thing? Probably not to me.

A condition where the pain of others is a good thing? Let me answer that after I have a bite of my burger.

Edit: IMO, our sense of empathy comes from the fact that we're social animals. I think that if humanity had developed as a species of solitary individuals that only interact with each other at mating time, the problem of evil wouldn't even occur to us.

 

[Magic Man]

No, I'm saying that all the reasons I can see to consider suffering to be bad are rooted in the human condition, and the human condition is not universal.

I wouldn't limit it to the human condition. I would say it's part of the condition of a living thing.

No, I wouldn't. I don't think that "murder" has an objective meaning, at the very least. "Murder" means illegal killing; is there one eternal law that supercedes all others?

I would say the objective meaning of "murder" is "to kill unnecessarily". The fact that you call it "murder" implies that there's something wrong with it. If I kill someone in self-defense and I'm completely justified, generally it wouldn't be called murder, but killing. It's like the debate about the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill/murder".

You don't get out of your work that easily. Please show me any definition of "good" that explicitly states that "allowing evil" is incompatible with "good".

Actually, I don't think "good" in and of itself does. I think a good god who is also loving is incompatible with "allowing evil".

 

[Willamena]

Is there some condition where pain is a good thing?

Have you heard of masochism?

 

[Magic Man]

A condition where my own pain is a good thing? Probably not to me.

A condition where the pain of others is a good thing? Let me answer that after I have a bite of my burger.

Except the cow doesn't feel pain or suffering generally. It's not the pain and suffering that benefit you when you eat that burger. It's the body, which can be obtained without pain and suffering. In fact, that's a great example because to be a "good, loving farmer", you'd have to use methods that don't involve pain and suffering for the animals.

Edit: IMO, our sense of empathy comes from the fact that we're social animals. I think that if humanity had developed as a species of solitary individuals that only interact with each other at mating time, the problem of evil wouldn't even occur to us.

Well, yeah, if we didn't know what love was, the idea of a loving God wouldn't occur to us in the first place, therefore making the problem of evil a moot point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wouldn't limit it to the human condition. I would say it's part of the condition of a living thing.

There are species of fly that have two modes of life: when food is scarce, they breed sexually and are fully formed flies, but when food is plentiful, they breed asexually: they're all born female, pregnant, and in a rudimentary form that's more like a maggot than an adult fly.

These females have no way to lay their eggs. Instead, they hatch inside the mother's body, and the offspring feast on the flesh of their mother until the mother's body bursts open and the cycle repeats itself with the next generation.

Should we grieve for the mother? Should we try to impose human morality on this species of fly? Would it even make sense to do so?

I would say the objective meaning of "murder" is "to kill unnecessarily". The fact that you call it "murder" implies that there's something wrong with it. If I kill someone in self-defense and I'm completely justified, generally it wouldn't be called murder, but killing. It's like the debate about the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill/murder".

In that case, I'd say that your definition is so broad that your meaning of "murder" includes many things that could be reasonably considered to be good.

Actually, I don't think "good" in and of itself does. I think a good god who is also loving is incompatible with "allowing evil".

If you say so... but again: this isn't a matter of simple definition. You've made a claim, and now it's up to you to support it.

 

[Magic Man]

There are species of fly that have two modes of life: when food is scarce, they breed sexually and are fully formed flies, but when food is plentiful, they breed asexually: they're all born female, pregnant, and in a rudimentary form that's more like a maggot than an adult fly.

These females have no way to lay their eggs. Instead, they hatch inside the mother's body, and the offspring feast on the flesh of their mother until the mother's body bursts open and the cycle repeats itself with the next generation.

Should we grieve for the mother? Should we try to impose human morality on this species of fly? Would it even make sense to do so?

That's what we're doing. We're imposing human morality. Yes, that is bad. It would be better if the mother could live along with the children. That is pain and suffering.

In that case, I'd say that your definition is so broad that your meaning of "murder" includes many things that could be reasonably considered to be good.

How?

If you say so... but again: this isn't a matter of simple definition. You've made a claim, and now it's up to you to support it.

In what way have I not supported it yet?

 

[PolyHedral]

You've made a claim, and now it's up to you to support it.

It is supported by logical deduction.

 

[ChristineES]

Nothing may be able to be black and white at the same time, but there is gray.

 

[Beaudreaux]

What if the thing in question is a zebra?

Then is is striped which is neither black nor white.

 

[kingsherald]

Wait, didn't God create us in his own image? Wouldn't that mean we could liken him to us or vice versa? Sure, he's not exactly like us, but that indicates that he's at least similar in some ways.



That's a contradiction. A being cannot be love and wrath. The definition for wrath is "vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger". An omnipotent being that is pure love would not be capable of wrath.




Let me get this straight. God creates a bunch of us, knows some of us are going to be sent to hell and allows it to happen, but he should be praised for saving some of us from that ridiculously harsh punishment? That's some twisted thinking.



No one deserves to be in hell. I wouldn't send Hitler to hell, if I had the option.



You sound like a slave justifying your praise for your cruel master. God's the one who created us in the first place. What you're saying is he created some people who he knew were going to hell. That's sadistic.

Would you fashion an unjust god who just lets the wicked go free? Such a fabricated god is himself evil. That is not the God who is, the God who created us. The God of the Bible, the only God who is, is a righteous Judge. In fact, He hates evil so much that He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die for the sins of His people. He spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for all His chosen people. This way He could punish their sins and yet not destroy them, but receive them into His kingdom, giving them eternal life, through faith in Christ Jesus. That is amazing love!

The Holy Scriptures declare that God is angry with the wicked every day. If we say that we have no sin, we make Him a liar. But God is truth. God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. All men are sinners. All men need an accepted sacrifice to appease God's wrath.

Only Jesus Christ Himself, His body, His perfect life of obedience is accepted by God. In fact, God sent Him for this very purpose. This is love. Not that we loved Him, but that He loved us, and gave Himself for us. The "us" being His elect, His chosen.

If any man would come to Jesus Christ confessing his sins, asking for forgiveness, God will forgive him and cleanse him and show forth His love for that one. But no one desires Christ by nature, because of the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Unless God acts supernaturally, through the Holy Spirit to convict him of his sin and draw him to Christ, he will go on in his sin, die in his sin, and God will righteously cast him into hell forever.

God is primarily concerned with His glory; He has created some that glorify Him in His redemption of them, and others He has created to show forth His glory in their destruction. As I said before, all are sinners and impure, and cannot dwell with a holy God unless their sins be punished first. They are either punished in Christ at the Cross, or punished in the sinner for all eternity.

The door is not closed until we breathe our last. We don't know who the elect are among those currently outside of Christ. Only God knows, and when He saves a man, that man will give evidences of his election. Look to Jesus and be saved all ye ends of the earth!

My Master is not cruel, but He died for me, sacrificing Himself - the very height of love. If you come to Him, He turns none away. If you come to Him, He will forgive you and cleanse you and give you eternal life. You see, men are without excuse!

Come to Him. Taste and see that the Lord is gracious. The door is yet ajar. Turn to Him before the silver cord is loosed and the spirit return to God who gave it! I pray for your salvation, all you who hear.

 

[jonman122]

you do realize that there are only wicked and evil people because of god, yeah? you fail.

 

[kingsherald]

you do realize that there are only wicked and evil people because of god, yeah? you fail.

God has decreed the existence of wicked and evil people, but He does not tempt anyone to do evil, neither can He Himself be tempted with evil.

Does not the Potter have power over the clay, to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor and destruction? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, "what are you doing?"

Do you not even fear God, seeing you are also like the rest of us, a clay vessel in His almighty hands?

 

[jonman122]

why would i fear god when i know he does not exist?

 

[ChristineES]

why would i fear god when i know he does not exist?

You KNOW? My goodness, what an arrogant statement.

 

[tarasan]

Then is is striped which is neither black nor white.

thats just silly, im sorry, a Zebra is self evidently black and white.

 

[Magic Man]

Would you fashion an unjust god who just lets the wicked go free? Such a fabricated god is himself evil.

Hold on. You have to choose. Do you want him to be good, loving and merciful? Or do you want him to mete out justice?

In fact, He hates evil so much that He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die for the sins of His people.

If he hates it so much, why not just destroy it in the beginning?

He spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for all His chosen people.

That's quite an overly elaborate scheme for a god who can do anything. Is he a James Bond villain, by chance?

This way He could punish their sins and yet not destroy them, but receive them into His kingdom, giving them eternal life, through faith in Christ Jesus. That is amazing love!

How did he punish us through Jesus's suffering? And no, that's not love. That's unnecessary cruelty.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Would you fashion an unjust god who just lets the wicked go free? Such a fabricated god is himself evil. That is not the God who is, the God who created us. The God of the Bible, the only God who is, is a righteous Judge. In fact, He hates evil so much that He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die for the sins of His people. He spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for all His chosen people. This way He could punish their sins and yet not destroy them, but receive them into His kingdom, giving them eternal life, through faith in Christ Jesus. That is amazing love!

Torturing someone else does not make the wicked good. Not even if the other person tortured is a God-man.

Your formulation condemns the God of the Bible as evil. The God of the Bible lets sinners - i.e. the "wicked" - go free. The fact that He does this because of the atonement of Christ doesn't change that he does do this.

The Holy Scriptures declare that God is angry with the wicked every day. If we say that we have no sin, we make Him a liar. But God is truth. God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. All men are sinners. All men need an accepted sacrifice to appease God's wrath.

So God's love can be bought? This hardly sounds just or good.

thats just silly, im sorry, a Zebra is self evidently black and white.

But to the extent that the zebra is white, it is not black, and to the extent that the zebra is black, it is not white... it is neither wholly (or "perfectly", if you prefer) black nor wholly white.

 

[jonman122]

You KNOW? My goodness, what an arrogant statement.

you'd call me arrogant, yet you have the gall to claim that jesus exists, or that god exists, with no proof or evidence of any kind.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

you'd call me arrogant, yet you have the gall to claim that jesus exists, or that god exists, with no proof or evidence of any kind.

When did she claim that, exactly?