Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[Beaudreaux]

I haven't read thru all these posts, but I'm not into ANY gymnastics, including mental ones, and I haven't compromised any intellectual musings or principles for my faith.

You don't struggle with any of the classic issues? Why do you think an all-powerful, all-loving being would sit by idly while little children die of cancer? Why does God promise to answer prayers yet most seem to have no effect?

 

[ChristineES]

What do you think is the ratio of your answered prayers to your unanswered prayers? Not sure if you keep stats.

No, I don't keep stats. But whenever something I pray for comes to pass, I do notice it. If something I pray doesn't, I tend to forget about it (which means it probably wasn't all that important to begin with, LOL)

 

[Blackdog22]

No, I don't keep stats. But whenever something I pray for comes to pass, I do notice it. If something I pray doesn't, I tend to forget about it (which means it probably wasn't all that important to begin with, LOL)

Seems a little too convenient. Would you be willing to add up how many prayers are of no benefit, and which ones do help? I think it could be interesting. I did it once.

Also do you think that the answers to your problems come while praying because your meditating on the problem and taking the time out to think about them? I know I have replaced praying at night about problems to just meditating about problems. I found it had no difference on the outcome which path I took.

 

[Wotan]

No, I don't keep stats. But whenever something I pray for comes to pass, I do notice it. If something I pray doesn't, I tend to forget about it (which means it probably wasn't all that important to begin with, LOL)

How's that prayer for world peace workin out fa ya?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So few words. So much meaning. The responses to this statement don't seem to fully understand the statement. This seriously lays it all on the line. If this were American Idol I would put you through. Bravo.

Not everyone is blessed with your piercing intellect.

 

[Beaudreaux]

No, I don't keep stats. But whenever something I pray for comes to pass, I do notice it. If something I pray doesn't, I tend to forget about it (which means it probably wasn't all that important to begin with, LOL)

Why do you suppose God does not answer them all? Doesn't the Bible say ask and you shall receive? Maybe you feel like someone's answering your prayers because you only count the hits and forget about the misses. Do you ever pray for God to do something only he could do that you wouldn't mistake for a coincidence, like curing a child's terminal cancer?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why do you suppose God does not answer them all? Doesn't the Bible say ask and you shall receive? Maybe you feel like someone's answering your prayers because you only count the hits and forget about the misses. Do you ever pray for God to do something only he could do that you wouldn't mistake for a coincidence, like curing a child's terminal cancer?

FWIW, prayer doesn't work like that. [We believe] God is actually interested in working in us and through us. What we ask for and what we receive may differ, and it is the openness to God that deepens and strengthens faith. When I pray for things, I ask that my eyes and heart be open to see or hear God's answers.

 

[Alceste]

In response to the OP, my spiritual practice is apophatic mysticism. That involves a perpetual "search and destroy" mission with respect to whatever beliefs I can dig up in my own mind. Broadly speaking, when I find a belief, I kill it (including the belief that I'm actually accomplishing anything meaningful by doing so). I suppose you could consider such dedicated skepticism about my own reasoning skills and conclusions a kind of intellectual sacrifice or compromise, since my ego would prefer that I think of myself as a very knowledgable person who has a good shot at being right about lots of things.

IOW, I've sacrficed the whole concept of intellect and tend to attribute most of my perceptions and conclusions to something I ate.

 

[Dan4reason]

Regarding this statement: So, overall, its possible that something outside the system could interact with the system and yet remain untestable from within the system.

OK.
How do you know? Why is it not within the realm of reason that something outside the system could interact with the system and yet remain untestable from within the system?

Added: I see I might have taken the incorrect emphasis from your statement. I agree it does not make it true (I never claimed it would), but I am still wondering why it could not be true, or would not be believable.


No argument from this corner about this. (However, don't most horses have long hair on their foreheads? )

I am not one to say that the universe as we know it, is all there is. There are probably realities that out there that we would never dream of. However, without a common sense rational way of looking for those things we might as well be believing is myths.

I am going to deliver a very deep thought so tell me if you don't understand. Here it is. For every specific question, there is an infinitude of false explanations and either one or several true explanations. If I were to ask what the name of the current president was, you could generate zillions of bogus names but only one is the right one. Because of this, the change of having a correct explanation for a question is very small if it is generated randomly. If an idea is generated without any evidence at all, the chance of it being true is very very small. The more evidence it has, the more likely it turns out to be true.

This line of thought is the reason that we virtually assume that trolls, gardon knomes, unicorns, Greek Gods, Viking Gods, Hindu Gods, elves, and fairies don't exist. These ideas have virtually no evidence at all, so the chance that they later turn out to be true is very close to zero.

Getting back to your point, your unproven idea about the supernatural could be true. We do not know everything about the universe and cannot disprove them completely. However, the chance of your beliefs being true without good evidence is not very big.

 

[MEMNOCK]

Actually, If you choose the right belief system you don't have to make any compromise intellectually... They go hand in hand... Oh courese this doesn't work with a number of religions...

 

[Beaudreaux]

FWIW, prayer doesn't work like that. [We believe] God is actually interested in working in us and through us. What we ask for and what we receive may differ, and it is the openness to God that deepens and strengthens faith. When I pray for things, I ask that my eyes and heart be open to see or hear God's answers.

Why do you believe that way? That's not what Jesus said about prayer. He said, what father, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? He said ask and you shall receive. I wonder why you feel differently...

 

[Kathryn]

You don't struggle with any of the classic issues? Why do you think an all-powerful, all-loving being would sit by idly while little children die of cancer? Why does God promise to answer prayers yet most seem to have no effect?

No, I don't struggle with these issues anymore. I have off and on during my life, but as I've matured and lived in my faith for many years, I've worked through those questions and others.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You don't struggle with any of the classic issues?

Everyone struggles with them at some point. You don't have to sell your intellect out to be an theist. In fact, it would appear to many of us that you have to sell out your intellect to BE an atheist.

Why do you think an all-powerful, all-loving being would sit by idly while little children die of cancer?

Perhaps he's thinking the same thing about you? He's given you a brain to understand cancer and to solve it, so what's taking you so long?

Why does God promise to answer prayers yet most seem to have no effect?

Perhaps the answer is "no"? Most people, theists and atheists alike, think that God is supposed to be some cosmic bell hop. "Hey God, can you send down some more fries???" In other words, you are focused on the physical. God is Spirit and is going to answer spiritual requests. You want some fun in your life? Pray for humility. I can assure you that your humility will be tested. How will you respond? No telling, but this and praying for patience make me shudder.

There's no doubt that there are a lot of people out there who sacrifice their intellectual honesty to maintain their belief. One needs to look no further than the nearest creationist to see this. For whatever reason, they have listened to others saying that evolution and theism are incompatible. Shenanigans!

Let's be pragmatic: there is no need to think outside of the box, when you finally see that there is no box. Don't rely on the tired assumptions of others. Weigh your own answers and above all, learn to love others deeply and from the heart no matter what they believe.

 

[Beaudreaux]

No, I don't struggle with these issues anymore. I have off and on during my life, but as I've matured and lived in my faith for many years, I've worked through those questions and others.

May I ask what your answer to the problem of evil is?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Everyone struggles with them at some point. You don't have to sell your intellect out to be an theist. In fact, it would appear to many of us that you have to sell out your intellect to BE an atheist.

An interesting thought. On what points do you think atheists sell out intellecetially by refusing to assert a belief in a deity?

Perhaps he's thinking the same thing about you? He's given you a brain to understand cancer and to solve it, so what's taking you so long?

See, this is the kind of thing I used to do to try to make my religion make sense. I'd try to redirect the question away from God and onto humanity. But this never stuck with me because it is not so much an answer as it is a way to try and change the subject. If God Is waiting for me to solve the problem and in fact thinks the problem SHOULD be solved, then why does HE do nothing? Also, Humanity is not capable of saving all the lives of children with cancer yet God could supposedly do it in an instant. This is a perfect example of one of the compromises I am talking about.

Perhaps the answer is "no"? Most people, theists and atheists alike, think that God is supposed to be some cosmic bell hop. "Hey God, can you send down some more fries???" In other words, you are focused on the physical. God is Spirit and is going to answer spiritual requests. You want some fun in your life? Pray for humility. I can assure you that your humility will be tested. How will you respond? No telling, but this and praying for patience make me shudder.

This is another example of the mental gymnastics of which I speak. The Bible does not tell us that God will sometimes answer with a "no" nor does it intimate that God's response to prayer will not be any more effectual than if his followers did notmpray at all. Jesus said ask and you shall receive. I'm not talking about asking for French fries. I have good friends who have asked God to heal the sick (one of the things Jesus supposedly actually did) and nothing happened. Why in the world would a good and loving God refuse such a request. Reconciling impotent prayer with what Jesus taught is another compromise that must be made if you are a Bible believing Christian.

 

[ChristineES]

My cousin once said he didn't believe in God because he prayed for a car, and one didn't just drop out of the sky. He actually said that. It just doesn't work that way, as others as said.

 

[Scuba Pete]

An interesting thought. On what points do you think atheists sell out intellecetially by refusing to assert a belief in a deity?

Srsly? Look at how many claim that they can't believe in God because of all the atrocities done in God's name. They conveniently leave out the atrocities done in the name of atheism (Stalinist Russian and China). Why blame God for man's blood lust??? How many atheists point out that atheists are smarter. Yet Einstein was a theist as are many intelligent people. Then how many atheists use their belief in evolution as evidence that there is no God? They are not mutually exclusive concepts. There are TONS of similar logical fallacies on both sides of the fence. To think that only theists commit intellectual suicide to maintain their beliefs smacks of a deep set bias against religion and theism.

See, this is the kind of thing I used to do to try to make my religion make sense.

You don't have to do anything but understand eternity. We are soooooooo focused on the physical, there here and now, that we forget the spiritual side of us. God is not about our physical existence, but about our spiritual one. Death is not an end and suffering is there to help us know something is wrong.

Let me tell you about my son, Harrison, who is right now in the hospital. This entire year, it has been obvious that something has been wrong. He has been through a lot including MRSA and a lot of back pain, even to the point of doing drugs to alleviate the pain. This last month, his back pain has gotten severe to the point of us bringing him to the ER last week and him being admitted to the hospital two days ago. He has a growth of some kind on his lower spine. Is it a tumor? We don't know yet. Is it cancer? We don't know yet.

My son is intent on trying to assign blame. Was it something he did? Could it be genetics? Maybe it's God punishing him for something he did or didn't do. In my mind it's none of those things, but his preoccupation seems to be making him rather morose. But today he had an epiphany about his struggles: Its making him tougher mentally. He has learned to become an effective advocate for himself and that's a major break through in his maturity. He also came to the conclusion that it rains on the just and the unjust alike. This sickness is a part of his physical humanity. How he deals with it is part of his spiritual humanity. There is no up side to assigning blame: it is what it is.

then why does HE do nothing?

Again, perhaps he has. God always seems to work by proxy. I see nothing wrong with that.

Also, Humanity is not capable of saving all the lives of children with cancer yet God could supposedly do it in an instant. This is a perfect example of one of the compromises I am talking about.

Children are the closest to God, for they love with out hesitation. Their spiritual beings are quite safe until they too become sentient in their own right.

Every thing has a price. We love the mountains, but we hate the earthquakes that make them. We love many of the effects of evolution, and yet we fear disease and death. We love islands, but sometimes volcanoes wreak havoc on the living. The oceans are a wonderful, beautiful place that can kill you in a thousand ways. It's all part of the plan. We live, we die and we evolve. Sometimes the evolution is physical, sometimes cultural and very often it's spiritual. It is the crucible of change.

 

[jonman122]

You don't have to do anything but understand eternity. We are soooooooo focused on the physical, there here and now, that we forget the spiritual side of us. God is not about our physical existence, but about our spiritual one. Death is not an end and suffering is there to help us know something is wrong.

you realize this pretty much means all christians could go and kill themselves and you're asserting "that wouldn't be so bad." because death isn't the end? if death is only the start of your spiritual journey, then why dont all christians kill themselves? I don't think thats a very good idea, and many cults have held to that idea anyways. Thats the kind of thinking i'm not too tolerant of, and thats the kind of thinking that is harmful to children.

everything you have said in your post is intellectually dishonest, stating spiritual belief as fact or as logic from the start is irrational and dishonest. God working by proxy? So every doctor that does his job right after being trained for 40 years is doing it right because of gods guiding hand? well why dont i just go pick up some surgical equipment and start doing some heart surgery, with only gods hand guiding me and without my 12 years of training. chances are, that persons doomed.

 

[Scuba Pete]

you realize this pretty much means all christians could go and kill themselves and you're asserting "that wouldn't be so bad." because death isn't the end?

I never asserted that. It amazes me of the hubris that would tell me what I believe, when I don't. However, I don't see suicide in quite the same way as the Catholic church if that helps.

if death is only the start of your spiritual journey, then why dont all christians kill themselves?

Again, I never said it was the start, but I did say it's not the end. Christians don't kill themselves for precisely the same reasons you don't.

I don't think thats a very good idea, and many cults have held to that idea anyways. Thats the kind of thinking i'm not too tolerant of, and thats the kind of thinking that is harmful to children.

I have no tolerance for mean people, including those that would harm others.

everything you have said in your post is intellectually dishonest, stating spiritual belief as fact or as logic from the start is irrational and dishonest.

If you want irrational and dishonest, check out post 98. This guy is in attack mode and twisting everything that he can.

God working by proxy? So every doctor that does his job right after being trained for 40 years is doing it right because of gods guiding hand?

God is love. Everyone who shows kindness shows that God is somewhere within them. It doesn't have to be a surgeon, it could be a kind word or a helpful hand. They don't even have to believe in God... just in love.

well why dont i just go pick up some surgical equipment and start doing some heart surgery, with only gods hand guiding me and without my 12 years of training.

That doesn't sound kind. Well it does sound "kind" of stupid.

chances are, that persons doomed.

People who act out of anger usually are.

Again, you expect God to be a cosmic bell hop intent to do your will. Since he refuses to play along, you get all petulant and resort to argumentum absurdum which is the most intellectually dishonest way to argue a point. Any idiot can do it as is demonstrated time and time again on forums across the Interwebs. Let's see where your line of argument will take you:

Fail!​

 

[jonman122]

you misunderstood, the person who is getting the untrained surgeon to do the surgery is doomed. the person doing the surgery will be fine after, and can probably move to mexico and get a new name. as soon as you said anything about god, "he is love, he is this he is that" you are being intellectually dishonest. Do you believe that god cannot be explained logically?

he has never done anything for anyone.