Your Political Status

[Revoltingest]

Was itr really a socialist country he was from, or just a repressive country with 'socialist' in its name?

"He"?
That's presumptuous.
The group includes men & women.
They're from Poland, Russia, & eastern bloc countries.

 

[LuisDantas]

I could well put Antifa, I suppose. It has been increasingly hard to think of politics as politics proper these days.

 

[Revoltingest]

I keep asking you for examples of socialism "being tried" and you have never once been able to name a country that enacted socialist policies.

How to describe such mischief politely....hmmmm.
That post is contrary to facts.
I've posted such lists ad nauseum.
Either you don't read them, or you deny that any socialist
country was socialist, eg, USSR, Cuba, N Korea, China
(post-revolutionary), Cambodia (under Khmer Rouge).

Never try the No True Scotsman argument on a faux Scot!

 

[Heyo]

It's possible that my small sample size could
might possibly perhaps have selection bias,
but every emigrant from former socialist
countries there described horrible conditions
of deprivation & oppression.

It is your small sample size (and self selection). I know of Germans who want their GDR back. We have a party in the Bundestag that is practically a descendent of the SED. Capitalism isn't as beloved as you think.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You're committing the etymological fallacy of calling
capitalism with regulation & social services provided
by taxation "socialism" & "marxism".
You repeatedly eschew better labels like "democratic
socialism" & "social democracy" in favor of "socialism",
which is the absence of private ownership of the
means of production.
But capitalism with social services isn't "socialism".
It's "capitalism".

It isn't about being "easier". That's a glib error
based upon misunderstanding my argument.
Socialists fail to acknowledge that implementing
such vastly increased government control over the
economy has historically been accompanied by
authoritarianism in general.

Socialists are analogous to anti-abortion types,
in that their goals have consequences they don't
want to see. Anti-abortion folk don't want the
consequence of back alley abortions or children
being forced to give birth before they're ready.
They just want to save all those fetuses.
Socialists are similar in that they want a system
that ensures all their wonderful social & economic
goals, but don't face consequences of socialism
in every country adopting it.

You have just pigeonholed socialism into the specific definition you insist on using and then attacked that pigeonholed version. That doesn't work: for your criticism to apply here, you'll have to find someone who supports a command economy.

There isn't even unanimous agreement on what "means of production" should include among different socialist movements.

Between RF definitions, & your arguments, I've seen
that marxism includes socialism which includes capitalism.
Thus marxism includes capitalism. Using "social democracy",
"democratic socialism", & those terms all interchangeably
leads to a real quagmire of confusion particularly when
many socialists say they want capitalism eliminated.

What do socialists really believe?
Everything under the Sun....except economic liberty.

Marxism includes some varieties of socialism and influences many others, although many others also fall outside its influence. Not all of socialism is "Marxist" in a strict sense, but I'll link to my post from another thread to address both of your above posts. (I can't quote it without losing context, because it has quotes.)

Ask a Marxist

 

[Revoltingest]

It is your small sample size (and self selection). I know of Germans who want their GDR back. We have a party in the Bundestag that is practically a descendent of the SED.

Germans...they do love their fascism.

I was just thinking the same of Russians. Their history
goes from serfs under a Czar, to suffering under Stalin,
to supporting Hitler in WW2 (til he betrayed them),to
enduring Putin. It seems they've long known privation
instead of liberty. So it's natural that many would long for
the glory days of the Soviet empire's being a world power.

Capitalism isn't as beloved as you think.

Perhaps you think incorrectly that I think it's beloved by all.
Wrongo pongo! I see many on RF & around the globe,
who want capitalism replaced by socialism/communism.

 

[Revoltingest]

You have just pigeonholed socialism...

We're getting repetitive.
I've nothing to add.

 

[Heyo]

Between RF definitions, [...]

What do socialists really believe?
Everything under the Sun....except economic liberty.

Good point. We are bickering over definitions while we could argue about policies. I think we'll agree more than we disagree. We have a lot of things nobody likes about those countries that had "socialist" governments.

• Dictatorship of the proletariat.
• Five-year-plan command economy.
• Strongly limited private property.

And I think we can agree about the things that are going wrong in capitalist countries.

• Plutocracy.
• Socialisation of risks and costs.
• Inferior social systems.
• Mono- and oligopolies.
• Extreme wealth gaps.

We should debate on these issues, if they are absolutely bad or just necessary evils and how to avoid them if possible.