That is a nice set of questions right there. How separate should one be perceived from the other, and why?
I am not sure that I correctly understood the question, and I don't know if that answers the question, but the prophet once said no one of you will be a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. According to some scholars, we are talking here about brothers in humanity, and not only brothers in Islam.
A very healthy teaching, that. Not quite what I was asking about, though.
My question was about the separation between Islam (the high ideal) and its practice. Is it at all proper to call the religious practice of Muslims and its results "Islam"? They certainly seem to at least nominally have Islam as a goal, if nothing else.
To which extent is Islam not the collective result of Muslim practice? If they are not one and the same, then why does Muslim practice matter?
As you know, we have the Quraan as the revealed Word of Allah to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. And Allah has chose prophets to share the message with humanity to worship Allah alone.
With that said, we should know that the sources of Islam are both from the Quraan and from our last prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. So no matter how many muslims do a thing, if it is not Quraan or Sunnah supported than it is not Islamic.
This I have some problem with. You seem to be practically saying that Muslims are completely irrelevant to Islam, which is apparently perfect and self-suficient in and of itself. The relationship between Islam and pious Muslims seems to be very one-sided: Muslims need Islam, but Islam could never particularly need Muslims.
Such is not a perspective I can very heartily accept or advise. It is inherently fragile, if not outright unhealthy.
As portrayed in the Quraan and from the Sunnah, one can't be muslim enough because being a muslim 100 % means being perfect.
See, that is a good example of what I mean. Is it really a good idea to repeatedly state that we all are o ever so completely separate from perfection?
I can only wonder how many of us can even believe in that. But worse of all, such an idea is all to suitable to abuse. Claims of "not being perfect" may so very easily become excuses for not taking due responsibility for our choices and mistakes.
I truly think no person should refuse at least the hope of getting a glimpse, if not actual moments of experience, of perfection. There is no good reason for simply labelling ourselves "unworthy" or whatever. That way false pretense of humility lies.
Sure you would find some violence and fighting back verses, but this is only because it is part of life. One will face some occasions when he is expelled out of his country for example. Fighting in that case for example, is not forbidden, as indicated in the Quraan. (this is just an example)
Certainly, there are many examples of imperfection in anyone's life.
But is it really proper to claim all the imperfections to our natures and all perfection to the same Islam that we supposedly owe submission to, even when we do not consider ourselves Muslims?
It seems to me that if we take things that far the very concept of Islam loses nearly all of its meaning.
It is very much a Theistic, Abrahamic Faith. One that holds scripture in high regard. And one that assumes that everyone would convert ("revert") to it if it only gave the Quran and the Faith a fair chance at that.
As for scripture, it is because Quraan is the Word of Allah revealed to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and as you know Islam is all about worshiping God alone and associating no partners. God is the Almighty, the only perfect one. So we hold his Words in the highest regards.
Such a belief sounds quite exotic to me. Why assume that there is a God at all? Why believe that the Quran has any particular connection to Him? Why would it be advisable to associate with no partners?
Why should any religion give so much weight to its own scripture, when it is instead (in my sincere belief) the motivation and discernment of the adherents and their everyday practice that lends meaning, purpose and worth to any scripture?
As for expecting everyone to convert/revert, Do you think that God being the Creator of everything and the All knowledgeable doesn't know us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Based on that, any thing from God is the right thing.
In that case, I feel entitled to say that God does not want me to believe in his existence at all, and I should therefore summarily disregard any claims of His existence.
That because he chose not to give me any reason to believe in His existence, nor to want Him to exist. It must therefore follow that He wants me to doubt His existence fiercely, which I shall. Even if it is not due to any particular belief that He wants me to.
As for the "fair chance" part, God makes it clear through out the Quraan that things won't be easy and that people, even strong believers won't have an easy life, it is on the contrary.
I meant we people giving Islam and the Quran (and by extension, the belief in Abraham's God) a fair chance of convincing us that we should adhere to it.
Which is to say, it is not for me, and it can never be a good fit for many people.
Should we discuss the reasons and see why it is not a fit?
As it pleases you. If the above did not give you a fair idea, feel free to ask.
How much of a conviction that converts are actually reverts do you have, and why?
There is a hadith saying Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, No one is born except upon natural instinct, then his parents turn him into a Jew or Christian or Magian.
Also Quraan 30:30
So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. ( fitrah is like instict).
So we believe that God created all people as believers. This is the instinct inside of them, because as you know Islam is all about worshiping God and God alone. So one that happens, you feel in peace with yourself because that is your instinct, this is how Allah created you.
I take it that Magians are Zoroastrians? I am not familiar with that word.
You know, when you claim that you believe that all people are created as believers (in God) you are in effect authorizing me to state outright that Islam is misguided.
Because it demands belief in God and centers its doctrine on that belief.
Would that be not a problem if it were proved to be true?
It is not a problem to me, except by way of the expectations of many that I should somehow become a believer.
It is difficult to have much trust in the wisdom of a faith that claims outright that everyone should believe in God's existence, let alone one that claims that I am a believer in denial.
What do you mean by proving it to be true? I think we can agree that Islam (the religion) is indeed centered on the belief in God, so there is no need to prove that.
What is left to prove?
Because it holds scripture in such high regard.
Doesn't it deserve to be in the highest regard if it is the Word of your Creator?
The highest possible regard for scripture, given that premise, certainly.
That level of regard, however, is still well below the regard that should be given to actual human discernment. I know that Muslims will essentially
have to disagree with me there, but it is just so obvious to me.
Because it expects everyone to be capable of belief in God or to benefit from it.
Benefits in this world is living in peace and having answers to questions and in in the afterlife it would be eternity in heaven. It explains our purpose. However, God never told us that it would be an easy rode in this life to do so. But God promises to facilitate us a way if we seek Him.
Was this meant as a remark to my statement about the expectation of belief in God? It does not seem to have a connection to it.
I will have to wait a bit, but thanks.
Because it thinks of disbelievers as sinners.
Sinners would be those people knowing the truth but rather choosing not to believe.
How can someone know the truth yet choose not to believe it? Is that at all possible?
There are rights towards the creation and right towards the Creator. However there are some people who it was simply not there fault because they were not approached the right way or were never approached by the subject. For those people will have their own test later. However, God will judge each one accordingly for He knows intentions of people and knows each person.
If that is so, proselistism looks like a very bad idea, and you are basically stating that God does not want people to make a point of His supposed existence.
Because it separates the religion from the practice.
I did not understand what you mean by that?
All too often, Islam seems to be presented as something that should be believed in instead of reflected about and acted upon.
