Touche, that too
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Your position about Islam
- Thread starter Sabour
- Start date
Touche, that too
C'mon O, you have to take more of an unbiased international view of this entire situation. The West just shows up in the Middle East after WW2 and decides that a new nation should be formed. This new nation is being formed in the middle of the Arab World to relocate displaced Jews from Europe right smack dab in the middle of their predominate religion's Holy land. To add insult to injury they do it because of a claim in the Torah. Sold it to the American public with a movie [Exodus] and a song [this land is mine God gave this land to me]. Not to mention Christian guilt because what a mad Christian named Hitler did to Jews.
Than to add insult to injury the West falls in love with Arab oil. They set up puppet Governments and rape the countries of their resources and get filthy rich off this, give their puppet cohorts a little taste, and giving very little back to the populace. Now on top of all this we let loose the most powerful war machine ever seen by mankind if we don't get their cooperation. Don't you think these people might have maybe a little reason to get ****** off. Wouldn't you want to revolt if you lived under these circumstances. Most of the anger there is for those reasons. they're just using religion as the glue to bind them.
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
@monkofreason
1. Consiider the source. Wikipedia is hardly ever contributed to by unbiased individuals & many today take a hostile stance ingeneral to Islam as a whole because of recent events.
2. Not ALL/b] hadith are noteworthy, for starters. Also consider the words. This is talking about after war has already started. Muhammad actually even tried to sign a peace treaty with them that they then violated.
The propoganda that you are spreading is the same spread by right wing media, and Wahhabi extremists. It is only by understanding the religion and helping to show that these people that groups like ISIS are not representativeof true Islam that peace can ever be achieved.
As much as I disagree with Islam I think it is rhetoric like that which feedsgroupls like Al Qaeda & ISIS.
You can face palm as much as you would like and if you would like I can find other sources. There is no "true Islam" there is only what the practitioners do. I have never stated that all of Islam is a terrible violent thing. But I do think that the implications of the religion have had long standing and greatly negative effects on our world. The propensity that the religion has for being warped by extremists is a major example of what I mean.
The only portion you seem to have a trouble with out of all the things I listed is the "militaristic way in which it was founded." Muhammad was a military leader. I agree he wasn't a bloodthirsty savage rounding up innocent civilians and lopping off their head. But he did state the war was alright if done in the interest of protecting Islam. That alone has created resounding amounts of damage in the world.
The road to hell was paved with good intentions and Islam, which is peaceful for some, is violent with many.
And it isn't propaganda against Islam. Christianity did the same thing and actually to a far greater degree. The witch trails, Pagan killings, conquests of Natives in North America, KKK, Nazi philosophy. ect.
My MAIN problem with peaceful Islamic culture, such as what we generally have in America, is the way they view women. The way they treat women is an extension of the way they view the women. As objects. Precious or not they are not seen as men are seen. Any time someone holds false or dogmatic principles to be true, invariably, they will eventually become toxic no matter how benign they start.
Chev Chelios
Member
The suggestion that because most Moslems do not act violently does not mean Islam itself doesn’t support violence, indeed, if we merely look at the texts objectively and consider the actions of its prophet, the perfect example to be followed for eternity; we know that it does provide ample justification for violence to be carried out in its name. There is an inherent flaw in your argument because a widely held belief or practice does not guarantee the belief or practice to be correct.
It is not difficult to envisage that many Moslems may actually agree with acts of violence but might not wish to partake in such acts themselves for a number of reasons such as the sacrifices required, the punishment they will receive for breaking the law or having other priorities such as their work, raising a family etc etc. Just upping sticks to join groups like ISIS is easier said than done. See, we know that most Moslems accept Islam permits polygamy for instance, however most do not undertake it. So we see that an absence of a given behaviour cannot determine what Islam does and doesn’t permit and just because most Moslems subscribe to normal baseline human behaviour of not wishing to kill people does not mean those people do not share the end goals of those that do engage in violence or that they see such violence as justifiable.
Indeed, we know my argument to be true because this exact thing has been shown in study after study - that whilst technically a ‘minority’, many Moslems DO support Islamism. For example, a Gallup poll, the largest ever conducted on Moslems, used a scale of 1 – 5. 1 = Moslems thought the 9/11 attacks were completely unjustified, 5 = Moslems thought the attacks were completely justified. 7% were 5’s which, if we extrapolate this to 1.6 billion means 80 million Moslems thought 9/11 was justified! But more worryingly, only 63% were 1’s which means that 37% of Moslems thought that 9/11 & similar attacks were in some way JUSTIFIED! 37% of 1.6 billion = 592 million Moslems!!!
Islamic extremism has the support of millions of Moslems make no mistake about it and this helps explain why we see the same thing again and again and why that 'extremeism' always looks the same and is accompanied by the same worldview. See, those that say these’ extremists’ are pushing their own narrative and not those found in Islam’s divine texts never can explain why all these Jihadist’s the world over have pretty much the same goal – establishing Islamic rule in accordance with the same fundamental prescriptions of the faith. This fact is always lost on people – that whether the extremism is in Africa, the Middle East or Asia, Islamic terrorism is always ideologically the same and is no different to what Muhammad himself did.
The co called ‘moderate’ Moslem offers me no comfort for the facts are that in 1400 years they have never dealt with this ‘minority' and history tells us it is always the ‘extreme’ fraction which dictates the agenda - it is the proverbial 'tail that wags the dog'. Do I think all Moslems are violent? Clearly not, but my argument is this doesn’t mean Islam itself does not allow for violence and that ultimately, whether it is a majority or a minority is not really helpful anyway.
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outhouse
Atheistically
never said it wasn't dynamic.
we could write a book and still miss important topics.
point of the thread was started by a episode of cosmos, the last one in the series, when Neil Degrasse Tyson stated how much better the world would be if we did not have fanaticism and fundamentalism.
And I agree.
Islam is tied to the whipping post for some very good reason, breeding and being the largest people behind terrorism, and the largest problem of literalist.
Can we agree literalism is not good for anyone?
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Alceste
Vagabond
I think you broke my irony meter.
Alceste
Vagabond
If they say they are, then they are. Quibbling over who is or isn't a "real" Muslim, Christian or Jew is a pastime for Muslims, Christians and Jews. For the rest of us, that's called "no true Scotsman".
I'm in agreement with you on most of that. I think most governments need to be secular. Especially ones that are diverse and developed as most of the Western countries. But to have a strong government you need something to bind people together. The people in that area are oppressed. The oppression crosses boundaries and nations. And don't get it twisted, this oppression started long before the West showed up to exploit these people. Their leaders have let them down for centuries.
Now comes the Arab Spring and what binds these people is Islam and oppression. The vast majorities in these countries really don't want to kill Americans like you think. They don't want to make America Islam. What they do want is for America to get off their back, stop raping their country's resources, and allow them to have what we enjoy here, self determination and freedom.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Saint Frank
Regarding change, that is not going to happen because as you know Islam we believe that Islam is from God and Quraan is the same Quraan and Quraan has always been in the hands of the people so Quraan won't change and hence Islam won't change. What would change is the behavior of the individuals. Islam is not like Christianity in changing things in the bible and every one coming out to interpret the bible differently. Sure there are some minor difference in some interpretations, but Quraan is there as it has always been.
As for people who like the same sex what is considered as a sin is the act it self. Islam doesn't only says dont do this and do that, it gives you a way to be as God wants us to be. If one dismisses these feelings and try to act as God has told us too, it could be a reason for him to enter heaven. After all, Jihad means "to stuggle" for good and when you fight these desires than you are doing the greatest Jihad of all which is Jihad against one self.
As for women, this is not the case, Islam gave women many rights and Islam was what told humans to treat the woman as a being when main stream christianity was still discussing if women should live because of what they say that it is Eve's fault that we are out of heaven. Islam gave modest to women.
As for the anti- freedom, that seems a bit vague to answer, but I would say that Islam doesn't oppress people, It doesn't dismiss desires, Rather it disciplines them.
I am not well informed on their situation, perhaps they view that as their right, frankly I don't know.
As for hating, this is not Islamic. The prophet once said that no one would believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. And scholars say that brother in this case means the brother in humanity.
One of the ways to begin reciting the Quraan is saying "I seek refuge in Allah from Satan.
Look through the Quraan to see what Allah says about evil.
Look through the Quraan to see how muslims are encouraged to act.
For example, let me tell you about being righteous in ONLY CHAPTER 2 of the Quraan.
Explanation from the Quraan:
2:177 Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
Righteous in Quraan
The concept of righteous, or the word if you want, has been mentioned in the Quraan many many times. For instance I will try to cover this concept only from chapter 2 from the Quraan.
Righteous in chapter 2:
Verse 2: This is the book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - ( a guidance for those conscious of Allah المتقين
Verse 3 – 4- 5: explanation: Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,3 And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].4Those are upon
Regarding change, that is not going to happen because as you know Islam we believe that Islam is from God and Quraan is the same Quraan and Quraan has always been in the hands of the people so Quraan won't change and hence Islam won't change. What would change is the behavior of the individuals. Islam is not like Christianity in changing things in the bible and every one coming out to interpret the bible differently. Sure there are some minor difference in some interpretations, but Quraan is there as it has always been.
As for people who like the same sex what is considered as a sin is the act it self. Islam doesn't only says dont do this and do that, it gives you a way to be as God wants us to be. If one dismisses these feelings and try to act as God has told us too, it could be a reason for him to enter heaven. After all, Jihad means "to stuggle" for good and when you fight these desires than you are doing the greatest Jihad of all which is Jihad against one self.
As for women, this is not the case, Islam gave women many rights and Islam was what told humans to treat the woman as a being when main stream christianity was still discussing if women should live because of what they say that it is Eve's fault that we are out of heaven. Islam gave modest to women.
As for the anti- freedom, that seems a bit vague to answer, but I would say that Islam doesn't oppress people, It doesn't dismiss desires, Rather it disciplines them.
I am not well informed on their situation, perhaps they view that as their right, frankly I don't know.
As for hating, this is not Islamic. The prophet once said that no one would believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. And scholars say that brother in this case means the brother in humanity.
One of the ways to begin reciting the Quraan is saying "I seek refuge in Allah from Satan.
Look through the Quraan to see what Allah says about evil.
Look through the Quraan to see how muslims are encouraged to act.
For example, let me tell you about being righteous in ONLY CHAPTER 2 of the Quraan.
Explanation from the Quraan:
2:177 Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
Righteous in Quraan
The concept of righteous, or the word if you want, has been mentioned in the Quraan many many times. For instance I will try to cover this concept only from chapter 2 from the Quraan.
Righteous in chapter 2:
Verse 2: This is the book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - ( a guidance for those conscious of Allah المتقين
Verse 3 – 4- 5: explanation: Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,3 And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].4Those are upon
guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.5
41: And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me. ( fear only Me فاتقون
48: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. ( fear a day واتقوا
103: And if they had believed and feared Allah , then the reward from Allah would have been [far] better, if they only knew. (feared Allah واتقوا
123: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.( fear a day واتقوا
179 And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.
180: Prescribed for you when death approaches [any] one of you if he leaves wealth [is that he should make] a bequest for the parents and near relatives according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقين
183: O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous –( تتقون
187: It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (يتقون
206: And when it is said to him, "Fear Allah ," pride in the sin takes hold of him. Sufficient for him is Hellfire, and how wretched is the resting place
(fear Allah اتق
223:Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers.
224: And do not make [your oath by] Allah an excuse against being righteous and fearing Allah and making peace among people. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
231: And when you divorce women and they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or release them according to acceptable terms, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress [against them]. And whoever does that has certainly wronged himself. And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah واتقوا
233 Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]. Upon the father is the mothers' provision and their clothing according to what is acceptable. No person is charged with more than his capacity. No mother should be harmed through her child, and no father through his child. And upon the [father's] heir is [a duty] like that [of the father]. And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation, there is no blame upon either of them. And if you wish to have your children nursed by a substitute, there is no blame upon you as long as you give payment according to what is acceptable. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Seeing of what you do. ( fear Allah واتقوا
237 And if you divorce them before you have touched them and you have already specified for them an obligation, then [give] half of what you specified - unless they forego the right or the one in whose hand is the marriage contract foregoes it. And to forego it is nearer to righteousness. And do not forget graciousness between you. Indeed Allah , of whatever you do, is Seeing. (nearer to righteousness للتقوى
241 And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقين
(continued)
41: And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me. ( fear only Me فاتقون
48: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. ( fear a day واتقوا
103: And if they had believed and feared Allah , then the reward from Allah would have been [far] better, if they only knew. (feared Allah واتقوا
123: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.( fear a day واتقوا
179 And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.
180: Prescribed for you when death approaches [any] one of you if he leaves wealth [is that he should make] a bequest for the parents and near relatives according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقين
183: O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous –( تتقون
187: It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (يتقون
206: And when it is said to him, "Fear Allah ," pride in the sin takes hold of him. Sufficient for him is Hellfire, and how wretched is the resting place
(fear Allah اتق
223:Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers.
224: And do not make [your oath by] Allah an excuse against being righteous and fearing Allah and making peace among people. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
231: And when you divorce women and they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or release them according to acceptable terms, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress [against them]. And whoever does that has certainly wronged himself. And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah واتقوا
233 Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]. Upon the father is the mothers' provision and their clothing according to what is acceptable. No person is charged with more than his capacity. No mother should be harmed through her child, and no father through his child. And upon the [father's] heir is [a duty] like that [of the father]. And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation, there is no blame upon either of them. And if you wish to have your children nursed by a substitute, there is no blame upon you as long as you give payment according to what is acceptable. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Seeing of what you do. ( fear Allah واتقوا
237 And if you divorce them before you have touched them and you have already specified for them an obligation, then [give] half of what you specified - unless they forego the right or the one in whose hand is the marriage contract foregoes it. And to forego it is nearer to righteousness. And do not forget graciousness between you. Indeed Allah , of whatever you do, is Seeing. (nearer to righteousness للتقوى
241 And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقين
(continued)
Sabour
Well-Known Member
278 O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers. ( fear Allah)
281 And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah . Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly.( fear a day)
282 O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah)
Now let us take a look at the other words in Arabic that also mean righteous
44: Do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the Scripture? Then will you not reason? (البر in Arabic, it has the same meaning as تقوى which is righteousness)
25:And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally.(righteous deeds الصالحات
62: Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.( did righteousness صالحاً
82: But they who believe and do righteous deeds - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. (righteous deeds صالحاً
130 And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous. (الصالحين
277: Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. (الصالحات
281 And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah . Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly.( fear a day)
282 O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah)
Now let us take a look at the other words in Arabic that also mean righteous
44: Do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the Scripture? Then will you not reason? (البر in Arabic, it has the same meaning as تقوى which is righteousness)
25:And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally.(righteous deeds الصالحات
62: Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.( did righteousness صالحاً
82: But they who believe and do righteous deeds - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. (righteous deeds صالحاً
130 And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous. (الصالحين
277: Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. (الصالحات
Sabour
Well-Known Member
There are many ways to evaluate what you have in hand.
Didn't you ever hear that the proof of Islam is the Quraan it self.
If you read the Quraan, which you said you did, you will notice the direct challenges. You will also notice how Allah reasons with people and continuously asks people to reflect down on things.
Another way to see things is reading about the life of our prophet, If you wish to do so, I recommend you reading "the first muslim" which was written by an agnostic Jew.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
The argument that there are just too many Muslims around for the stereotype of the violent, terrorist-like Muslim to be accurate is sound, but also misleading IMO.
Most Muslims obviously are not potential terrorists. But then again, neither are most non-Muslims. All things told, there are not that many people capable of violent extremism that have not reached that state by way of convincing themselves to be doing God's Will... and of those, nearly all are Muslims or Christians, who are often encouraged to be proud of not yielding to the "unbelievers".
They may not be representative of their faiths as a whole. But they sure are indicative of dangerous trends within their faiths, trends that ought to be challenged in no unclear terms, yet often are not. Far too often for confort Muslims and to a slightly lesser degree Christians are simply not adequately prepared to deal with disagreement with their more arbitrary beliefs, mainly because they are taught to see that as a defect as opposed to a virtue.
Most Muslims obviously are not potential terrorists. But then again, neither are most non-Muslims. All things told, there are not that many people capable of violent extremism that have not reached that state by way of convincing themselves to be doing God's Will... and of those, nearly all are Muslims or Christians, who are often encouraged to be proud of not yielding to the "unbelievers".
They may not be representative of their faiths as a whole. But they sure are indicative of dangerous trends within their faiths, trends that ought to be challenged in no unclear terms, yet often are not. Far too often for confort Muslims and to a slightly lesser degree Christians are simply not adequately prepared to deal with disagreement with their more arbitrary beliefs, mainly because they are taught to see that as a defect as opposed to a virtue.
outhouse
Atheistically
I never implied that, I know better first hand.
So please don't say "I think" unless im guilty.
outhouse
Atheistically
It comes down to something no muslim wants to admit or address.
The required fanaticism and fundamentalism. They all think literalism is politically and morally correct.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Can you emphasize about the values in number 1
I would say the most important thing that Islam is that patience is a key to heaven and that people will be accountable for every little action.
99:6-7-8
6 That Day, the people will depart separated [into categories] to be shown [the result of] their deeds.
7 So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,
8 And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.
outhouse
Atheistically
I stand corrected, my friend.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Sabour
Well-Known Member
The proof that Quraan is the actual word of God depends on the approach you you to do so.
You can do things logically as the Allah asks you too through out the Quraan.
You can also look up for errors.
You can look up the scientific miracles.
You can read about the life of our prophet. Again I would suggest to read a book called the "First Muslim".
You can also look up at the direct challenges given to the reader of the Quraan.
As for violence, well violence is part of what humans do and it is not for Islam to blame just because the ones who are violating say we are doing this because of religion.
As for ignorance Although povert is high is Islamic countries,I dont agree with that
As for fundamentalism, what does this term EXACTlY mean?>