Your position about Islam

[Triumphant_Loser]

1. Only since the 70s. Hell, Edgar Allan Poes first wife was his 15 year old cousin. In that time frame it was normal & the age is arguable in the Muslim scholar community. I can give you a phone number if you want.

Just because Poe did it doesn't make it right either. He was also a suicidal drunkard. Your point being?

2. Have you read the entire history of Islam & Muhammad from the point of view of a Muslim...ever?

Yes, I have. They just use just use apologetics to dance around the fact that their founder was a pedophile.

3. Can you quote one chapter of the Qur'an from heart in english or arabic?

Nope, neither can most Muslims I'm sure. Just like most Christians can't memorize an entire chapter of the Bible verbatim, but they can copy/paste. I sure as hell know how to read though.

4. Have you read the Qur'an? If so, which translation? Why only one?

Yes. I have. We read it in our Introduction to Philosophy and Religion class... along with the Torah, the Bible, and the Vedas. I had a copy of it from our school library.

 

[Tabb]

Try reading Fitzgerald, the Articles of Confederation & the Federal Papers and tell me you still believe that. The U.S. sold its soul to Rockefeller and Carnegie during the depression. Vote republican.get big bankers behind the politicians, vote democrat get big bankers behind the politicians. Its like the worlds longest april fools joke. Vote republican, vote democrat still get screwed....:yes:

So whats the solution. We could get a bunch of guys together and lead an insurrection against the government, nah that sounds painful, deadly and futile.
Or we can take the course of least resistance and be enlightened and help others to see the light and use the political process that was put in place for situations like this. This country overcame slavery, civil war, only white men voting, outside foes, and everything else threw at it and overcame it and came out on the other side better for it. This to shall pass my friend.

 

[sun rise]

Sunrise123, Thanks for your very interesting answers.Let me please answer them

Well let me explain Islam first.

As muslims we believe that Allah sent us prophets. There are a total about 124000 prophets sent to mankind out of which 25 were mentioned in the Quraan. These prophets all came with the same message from God which is worshiping God alone. From these prophets there are Moses and Jesus peace be upon them. They both had the Torah and Injeel as revelations just like we have the Quraan as a revelation. However the difference is that Muhammad peace be upon him was the last prophet and the Quraan was the last revelation and hence it was preserved. If we look at the Quraan we find that Quraan has always been in the hands of the people and the language which it came with is still a living language. Whereas the bible is not the Injeel that was revealed because it has changed overtime and you find many different versions of the bible and not two are the same. So we believe that the message of all the prophets are essentially the same. Hence we believe that they all were muslims.

However, there is a major difference between Islam and Christianity as known today. Islam holds that there is One God while Christianity implies having three, no matter how you twist the explanation of the trinity. Do you think that holding these two different beliefs would both lead to the same place?

In the Quran there are 99 (depending on the source) names of God or attributes of God are there not? So I'm not bothered by Christianity having in three aspects of God. Of course there's a theological difference between how Muslims view Muhammad and how Christians view Jesus, but a number is not significant. And as a side-note at least some Hindus feel the same way - that all the names are really aspects of one God.
...

Well let me say that as Muslims we have two sources to determine what is Islamic and what is not. These two sources are from the Quraan and from the Sunnah.

Let me add that it is not for people to find what suits them in Islam. Islam is taken as a whole and it can't be taken as parts. You can't take the Jihad part and neglect other parts. You can't take the worship aspect and neglect other aspects for Islam is a complete system of life and one only part is taken, it won't be Islam anymore.

About ISIS, I would say that many muslims are mislead due to them not knowing their religion properly. From what I see and hear, ISIS is the complete opposite of Islam and I would say that Islam is not their motivation at all. It is rather what they are covering their acts with.

To answer your last question, I would say as Jesus peace be upon him said, seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you.

The first word of the Quraan revealed to out prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was "READ". That has to count for something.

This leads to a question about what your is view of Shi'a Islam (and other groups)?

As far as being a system of life, Islam is that. But also St. Francis of Assisi showed that true Christianity is also a system of life that can be lived on Earth - not that it's easy, of course. All religions have an ethical, moral and system of behavior that true believers are expected to strive to live up to. And it's only with the rise of Protestant Christianity has government and religion been separated.

As far as government and religion in general wouldn't you agree that the Compact of Medina, although being a document of it's time and place, is a philosophical model of religious pluralism in government.

The reason I asked about the Hudud punishments is that, for me and many others, they are the most problematical aspects of the Quran at least as literally read. There are those Appendix 37 of the Authorized English translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam) who have a different view of them.

As a side point, we agree on ISIS.

 

[vskipper]

Just because Poe did it doesn't make it right either. He was also a suicidal drunkard. Your point being?


Yes, I have. They just use just use apologetics to dance around the fact that their founder was a pedophile.


Nope, neither can most Muslims I'm sure. Just like most Christians can't memorize an entire chapter of the Bible verbatim, but they can copy/paste. I sure as hell know how to read though.

Yes. I have. We read it in our Introduction to Philosophy and Religion class... along with the Torah, the Bible, and the Vedas. I had a copy of it from our school library.

1. It is a point of time period. Poe was what they call an example. I can explain what that it is if necessary

2. K

3. WRONG! Ask any Muslim who has been Muslim longer than a month and they can quote at least one in arabic and english. Thank you for admitting your ignorance. Now go read and stop letting right wing media tell you what to think. Learn all the facts,.acquire knowledge and stop spewing the rhetoric of others

4. I notice you never said which translation (probably pickthall). Read more than one version. I am presently "Christian" and I have two translations. One written by a woman called the sublime quran

 

[icehorse]

Nope.

Islam is something that should be taken as a whole.

The right one is who proves the other wrong from the Quraan.

On the other hand, if Islam is what ISIS thinks, than if you look at the numbers of muslims around the world, than it is a miracle that you are still living.

I think it would be very interesting if we could get a member of ISIS to debate you here on RF. I think you'd have a struggle on your hands.

And that my friend, is why I have a problem with Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

I know that Islam is not compatible with or even friendly to animism, but it is frightening how closely that mirrors Kardecist and particularly Roustaing Spiritism.

Are you aware that a certain Jean-Baptiste Roustaing is believed to this day by many Brazilians to have been the reincarnation of the Prophet, and his variety of Spiritism makes many of the same claims that Islam does (weird as I find that to be)?

There are many terms that I didn't understand your reply, but I would say it is not about the claims that one would make, it is about what proof he has

What of the proof for Islam? With all due respect, it does not seem to be a high point of the religion.


Animism is a wide group of beliefs that center on the idea that spirits - I suppose you would consider them either ghost or djinss - are both real and useful for religious practice. Word reached me that Muslims don't see it with much sympathy, presumably because it is not considered advisable by the Quran.

There were a couple of 19th century Frenchmen that were Animist enthusiasts and firm believers in universal reincarnation. Oddly enough, their beliefs found fertile ground in current day Brazil. They are far more popular than, say, Umbanda and Candomblé, and in fact snubb those two fairly often.

One of those two, Roustaing, had a specific doctrine that somewhat parallels Islam in eerie ways, and Roustaing himself is believed by some to be Muhammad reincarnated.

To be fair, many more people find the whole notion silly and immature, even disrespectful. Me among them.

 

[vskipper]

So whats the solution. We could get a bunch of guys together and lead an insurrection against the government, nah that sounds painful, deadly and futile.
Or we can take the course of least resistance and be enlightened and help others to see the light and use the political process that was put in place for situations like this. This country overcame slavery, civil war, only white men voting, outside foes, and everything else threw at it and overcame it and came out on the other side better for it. This to shall pass my friend.

You mean a country ran for the rich by the rich under the guise of major corporations and banks?

 

[Sleeppy]

1) I agree with the Quran on many things.
2) What is dualism?
3) Yes; no religion is completely accurate.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

3. Thank you for admitting your ignorance. Now go read and stop letting right wing media tell you what to think. Learn all the facts,.

Oh please. Fundamentalist Islam is the textbook definition of right-wing. I don't know if you've noticed, but the Muslim world is not exactly a utopia of tolerance and egalitarianism.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Topic title: Your position about Islam
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Sadly, the Koran is open to different interpretations, for example hardlime extremist muslims use the harsh bits to kill us, but easy-going muslims say the harsh bits only apply to Mohammed's time, and not to our modern times.

I know the Bible too has got harsh bits, but they're only in the Old Testament, and Jesus TRASHED them by giving us a New Testament..

 

[Sabour]

To LuisDantas

A very healthy teaching, that. Not quite what I was asking about, though.
My question was about the separation between Islam (the high ideal) and its practice. Is it at all proper to call the religious practice of Muslims and its results "Islam"? They certainly seem to at least nominally have Islam as a goal, if nothing else.

Islam is what God sent us through the prophets. Muhammad peace be upon him is the perfect muslim because prophets are people who live up the message they are sharing.

Therefore, being a muslim is choosing to follow how God wants us to live. So Islam can be determined from the Sunnah and the Quraan. Islam is what Sunna and Quraan teaches. It is given by God to us. Being a muslim is choosing to follow Islam.

To which extent is Islam not the collective result of Muslim practice? If they are not one and the same, then why does Muslim practice matter?

As you know, we have the Quraan as the revealed Word of Allah to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. And Allah has chose prophets to share the message with humanity to worship Allah alone.
With that said, we should know that the sources of Islam are both from the Quraan and from our last prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. So no matter how many muslims do a thing, if it is not Quraan or Sunnah supported than it is not Islamic.

This I have some problem with. You seem to be practically saying that Muslims are completely irrelevant to Islam, which is apparently perfect and self-suficient in and of itself. The relationship between Islam and pious Muslims seems to be very one-sided: Muslims need Islam, but Islam could never particularly need Muslims.
Such is not a perspective I can very heartily accept or advise. It is inherently fragile, if not outright unhealthy.

Islam is what we consider what Allah sent for us because we need it. We need to know what is next and what is our purpose. What benefit one would give for Islam are you suggesting.

Choosing Islam and following it would give us peace in our life, a purpose, and would hopefully give us a way to heaven. What can a person ask more than that

As portrayed in the Quraan and from the Sunnah, one can't be muslim enough because being a muslim 100 % means being perfect.

See, that is a good example of what I mean. Is it really a good idea to repeatedly state that we all are o ever so completely separate from perfection?
I can only wonder how many of us can even believe in that. But worse of all, such an idea is all to suitable to abuse. Claims of "not being perfect" may so very easily become excuses for not taking due responsibility for our choices and mistakes.
I truly think no person should refuse at least the hope of getting a glimpse, if not actual moments of experience, of perfection. There is no good reason for simply labelling ourselves "unworthy" or whatever. That way false pretense of humility lies.

For you first question it is because we are humans and humans have desires. A person might forget or get weak in a moment and do a sin. Stating that we are not perfect beings is both important to be mentioned and also is the truth.
We may lie, we may act like dogs when seeing women, we may steel when we are in desperate need. Stating that men are not perfect would I guess will make men at ease and will protect us from collapsing because it would put to much stress on the person. He will think that there will be no way to be forgiven and bad things will get worse.
If men were portrayed to be perfect, than once a sinner, always a sinner. That is the road that would be taking place I guess.

As for the claims of not being perfect, Allah makes it clear that intentions are something which one would also be held accountable for and Allah exactly knows every one of us and knows our intentions. There is a hadith saying that every deed is judged by its intentions and that is a fundamental principle in Islam. For example, a person who only prays to make people see him pray will have no reward for praying.

Certainly, there are many examples of imperfection in anyone's life.
But is it really proper to claim all the imperfections to our natures and all perfection to the same Islam that we supposedly owe submission to, even when we do not consider ourselves Muslims?
It seems to me that if we take things that far the very concept of Islam loses nearly all of its meaning.

The most perfect of all is Allah and anything given by him is perfect. So in our view there isn't anything more perfect than Allah and hence Islam and Quraan.

The perfection that we are talking about here refers to Allah and hence Islam is for remember that no person is the founder of Islam. It is the path that Allah chose to us and no one would know and understand humanity better than the All-Creator.

As for scripture, it is because Quraan is the Word of Allah revealed to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and as you know Islam is all about worshiping God alone and associating no partners. God is the Almighty, the only perfect one. So we hold his Words in the highest regards.

Such a belief sounds quite exotic to me. Why assume that there is a God at all? Why believe that the Quran has any particular connection to Him? Why would it be advisable to associate with no partners?
Why should any religion give so much weight to its own scripture, when it is instead (in my sincere belief) the motivation and discernment of the adherents and their everyday practice that lends meaning, purpose and worth to any scripture?

Believing in something means being able to say that I know for sure that Allah exists. It is as if I can see him. So here it is not about assuming nor does anyone asks you to do so. Rather it is by logical thinking and reflecting upon things. So the belief is not a blind belief.

We give so much weight to the Quraan because as I you know we believe it is the word of God revealed to our prophet and it contains answers to all the questions we need answer too.

Your final words here would have been true had not the Quraan been from the All- knowing , Allah.

After all, what LuisDantas would write is only important for me in how much it really benefits me. However, this is not in the case of the Quraan because the whole Quraan benefits me, every single letter, because Allah is the All-knowing.

We believe that reading and reciting the Quraan nurtures the soul and the heart and makes you draw nearer and nearer to God.

Do you know that there are many many muslims who memorize the whole Quraan? We are talking about 604 pages here. It is something that we get would be rewarded for in heaven. We are rewarded for every letter we read from the Quraan.

As for expecting everyone to convert/revert, Do you think that God being the Creator of everything and the All knowledgeable doesn't know us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Based on that, any thing from God is the right thing.

In that case, I feel entitled to say that God does not want me to believe in his existence at all, and I should therefore summarily disregard any claims of His existence.
That because he chose not to give me any reason to believe in His existence, nor to want Him to exist. It must therefore follow that He wants me to doubt His existence fiercely, which I shall. Even if it is not due to any particular belief that He wants me to.

As muslims, we believe that anyone who steps one step towards God, Allah would step 100 steps toward him. Jesus peace be upon him said seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you.

The purpose of us being on this earth is having a test. Allah has given us freewill with that test. However, Allah promises to help us with his Mercy. I strongly believe that Allah would leave no one searching for truth from his heart.

Answers will not be automatically given if a person didn't put an effort and was sincere to have them. And I in no way doubt your sincerity,

I meant we people giving Islam and the Quran (and by extension, the belief in Abraham's God) a fair chance of convincing us that we should adhere to it.

You know, when you claim that you believe that all people are created as believers (in God) you are in effect authorizing me to state outright that Islam is misguided.

Well that is something which scientists came up to.


(continued)

 

[Sabour]

It is not a problem to me, except by way of the expectations of many that I should somehow become a believer.
It is difficult to have much trust in the wisdom of a faith that claims outright that everyone should believe in God's existence, let alone one that claims that I am a believer in denial.
What do you mean by proving it to be true? I think we can agree that Islam (the religion) is indeed centered on the belief in God, so there is no need to prove that.
What is left to prove?

What I actually meant is that God exists. If that was proved to you, logically to be true, would things change ( I am not saying that I would prove it to you because that may not happen, but one day, You may feel God's presence)

How can someone know the truth yet choose not to believe it? Is that at all possible?

Yes, once I heard one saying yes you have proved to me that God exists but I don't care.

There are rights towards the creation and right towards the Creator. However there are some people who it was simply not there fault because they were not approached the right way or were never approached by the subject. For those people will have their own test later. However, God will judge each one accordingly for He knows intentions of people and knows each person.

If that is so, proselistism looks like a very bad idea, and you are basically stating that God does not want people to make a point of His supposed existence.

Nope not really the case.

Result won't change because the person that didn't bother to look up for answers will fail the test.

All too often, Islam seems to be presented as something that should be believed in instead of reflected about and acted upon.

It may seem like it is presented as something that should be believed in because it the Word of Allah and when muslims talk about it they hold it in the highest regard. However there is no compulsion in religion so it is up to you to choose if you want to follow or not.

 

[outhouse]

What if? what if allah is 100% mythology, who is doing the reasoning?


You ?

Ya what if?

 

[Sabour]

1- What is your position about Islam?

I have objections to it. Namely the militant way in which it was formed and carried out in parts of the world today as well as the view of women.

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

Do you think that apostasy will ever be accepted in the Islamic world?

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

The general lack of evidence for the religion to be considered "true" which is the same reason I don't believe most religions.

1-Well about the militant way I would suggest you would look thing from an Islamic source, or you can read a book called "the first muslim" written by an agnostic Jew.

About women, Islam holds women in high regards and gave her many rights when she had none. As muslims we must respect women and there is a teaching and saying that the heaven is mother's feet which shows how much we should respect and treat them good.

2- As an idea, Apostasy will never be accepted by any religion. If you were asking for more than that, I would suggest you reading an interesting thread on this forums
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/166373-apostasy-islam.html#post3867655


3- What about the Quraan? And before that, what is your position about the belief in God ?

 

[Sabour]

I disagree with that.

First equality doesn't mean being the same because every sex has different traits and not the same things would be suitable for both.

I agree with that argument to a point. You have to see where that position would be construed as sexist. Also it can be misapplied by misogynist males in charge to exclude women.

Second, if you ask our muslim sisters, there will be many who prefer things being that way because this is what suits them.

The only way that could be tested is to remove the restrictions or create a coed area of worship.

This is to ONE- ANSWER

That would be a possibility, unless it was proved non Islamic.

 

[beenie]

I made a bag of popcorn cause this post is like a cinema to me.
I must watch..

I think my observations are genuine concerns of a bigger problem within Islam and its followers.

 

[LuisDantas]

As muslims, we believe that anyone who steps one step towards God, Allah would step 100 steps toward him. Jesus peace be upon him said seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you.

The purpose of us being on this earth is having a test. Allah has given us freewill with that test. However, Allah promises to help us with his Mercy. I strongly believe that Allah would leave no one searching for truth from his heart.

Answers will not be automatically given if a person didn't put an effort and was sincere to have them. And I in no way doubt your sincerity,

With all due respect, we are having some sort of communication problem here.

I meant we people giving Islam and the Quran (and by extension, the belief in Abraham's God) a fair chance of convincing us that we should adhere to it.

How much of a chance is a fair chance?

Well that is something which scientists came up to.

Sorry, what are you talking about?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Another thing- no disrespect to him, but Mohammed is in a grave but Jesus is not.
Spot the difference?

 

[Sabour]

I must give you credit dude! You are an intrepid apologist if ever I saw one. :bow:



The reason you are not getting through to most of us is because you aren't starting at the beginning. It is like you are trying to build a big building without first building the foundation. The foundation is what supports a building by attaching it to the earth. To convince us, you need to attach Islam to reality. You are so accustomed to believing in the miracles that you don't understand that to us they are an imaginary foundation. Nothing built on them can stand.

Take your explanation that the Quraan must be a miracle because Muhammad was illiterate. That is simply not true. Unlike today, when reading and writing are considered basic education, The 7th century was very different. Reading, and especially writing, were technical skills requiring a lot of time to master. Professional skills even, more like writing computer code is today. Of course a man like Muhammad wouldn't do his own writing, any more than the President writes his own code for email.
Oral poetry was, however, a fine art form. Cultured people of the day regularly enjoyed it in groups. Composing, memorizing, and declaiming such works were cultivated skills. During his younger years working for his uncle on caravan trading, I have no doubt that a smart and ambitious man like Muhammad enjoyed sharing this art form with the people he met on his travels. Many of them were Christians and Jews, and so he accumulated a large repertoire from them as well as working on his own. Later in life, as a rich and powerful man, he surely continued to expand and polish his collection of these Arabic masterpieces of art. Going off to a cave for a while would give him time to compose, and when home he no doubt enjoyed gathering with other cultured people to share, criticize, polish and orate. Towards the end of his days he probably felt the need to preserve his collection, so he started having them committed to writing. He personally inspected the scribes work to make sure they were done excellently. There is simply nothing miraculous about a man like Muhammad leaving behind a monumental collection of superb poetry.

But it's human origins are very clear to us. Muhammad and his friends all spoke the same language, so that is what they composed in. Like all poetry composed by humans it loses a huge amount of the meaning and beauty by being translated. Most people find the translations nearly unreadable. The Quraan in other languages is unpleasantly florid and repetitious. The culture and ethics described are clearly a bit of an improvement over the surrounding Arabic, but have long since been improved upon enormously by other cultures. And it contains no information that wouldn't be available to an educated and travelled man of the day. Some is even flat out wrong, but the sort of thing one would expect from this sort of religiously themed poetry.

So I see the Quraan as a human endeavor, and Islam as well.

Peace friend.
Tom

I am not familiar with the term apologist, although I have heard it a lot.

Well I would agree to what you said and linking it to building and stuff, but what I am doing on this thread is replying to everyone based on his answers.

You've said that Muhammad peace be upon him was who came up with them when all Islamic and non Islamic sources agree that Muhammad peace be upon him couldn't read or right.

Doing things logically is a way to go. Enemies of Islam have been since the beginning and the Quraan openly challenges anyone to come up with like when chapter of the Quraan. Why enemies of Islam at that time didn't do it when they are are best in poetry. Also logically, it is impossible for a one man, no matter how ambitious he was, to be able to do what Muhammad peace be upon him did.


I would suggest that you would read about Gary Miller and how he approached Quraan and tried to prove it wrong, but he ended up being a muslim.


Back to your building example, frankly, I don't know where to start, if that concerns you

 

[sun rise]

If they say they are, then they are. Quibbling over who is or isn't a "real" Muslim, Christian or Jew is a pastime for Muslims, Christians and Jews. For the rest of us, that's called "no true Scotsman".

For any who did not catch it, Alceste is referring to the fallacy entitled "No True Scotsman".