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Your religious beliefs are probably wrong

Norman

Defender of Truth
Exactly. Or what if there was a correct religion but it has been polluted by thousands of years of politics and corrupt religious leaders? It makes it extremely unlikely someone has the correct religion right now.

Norman: Hi serp777, Are you saying because you think or believe as you stated "It makes it extremely unlikely someone has the correct religion right now" that there are not people out there that feel they do have the correct religion? I personally feel that I have the correct religion for me, it might not be the right religion for someone else and I did not always believe this way. I believe to let people worship according to the dictate of there own conscious; let them worship whom and how or what they may. I don't pretend as some people to try and question someone else's spiritual convictions, I see no reasoning in that. I have said this in another post, that if people would try to build bridges of understanding between one another instead of arguing or saying I am right and you are wrong cliché there would be understanding. I mean, there is common ground with everyone to build upon if they look for it.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
In my mind, anyone who claims to have anything more than "I don't know" is only fooling themselves. We're human. We wouldn't know the "true" religion if it bit us on our butts.

Norman: Hi Shadow Wolf, I think that is really sad reasoning on your part. I do believe that I am in a true religion for me, it might not be for someone else, but to say that this Is not possible is just not logical. I am trying to understand your comment, because you believe there is nothing more beyond than "I don't know" is a bit unrealistic in my opinion. I do believe that I have more beyond than "I don't know"; I did not always feel this way, there was a time when I really did not know or believed anything about religion or God. I am quite content where I am at, why would you think me foolish or anyone else for that part because you see it your way and nobody else's way?
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Actually I grew up as a Christian and remained so for over 45 years. Much of which was as a Preacher or Missionary. AoG (Assembly of God). After spending most of my life as a Christian I became convinced god did not exist and remained an Atheist.
At the age of 65 with no contact with any Muslims I accepted Islam. Dang near got lynched by the local community which was 100% Christian deep in the bible belt.
I do believe we all are responsible for our own beliefs and for that reason we should never stop learning and never believe anything we have not found proof of it's validity.

P.S. Muhammad only received a couple revelations in the cave, those being the ones that informed him of his Propethood.
After that he received nearly all of his revelations while preaching publicaly.

Norman: Hi Woodrow LI, well said.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
True, except many virtues are shared between the theistic religions I insuinuated and the non theistic religions you described. The spiritual outcome of having faith in any of them can be seen as the same. If it's a truth that we are eternal, then ALL religions, for the most part, do indeed promote spiritual peace. For your argument, whether God exists or not, or which religion is correct, is irrelevant. All that is relevant is the path of the individual. IE, Christianity is my path to reach where I need to be, while another may be Hinduism, another atheism, etc. I'm hoping you'll eventually get to the point where wether a religion is correct or not is irrelevant. Clearly it does not matter, and for those who think it is, which I can say isn't many, they'll eventually see the bigger picture here.


Side note: I'm excluding Scientology. It's just garbage.

Norman: Hi Thruve, I was just about to click "like" on your post until I read as you stated "I'm excluding Scientology. It's just garbage." In my opinion
everything you said prior to that just went out the window. Some people think they can have there cake and eat it to; it clearly does matter to you what
religion is relevant.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Norman: Hi Thruve, I was just about to click "like" on your post until I read as you stated "I'm excluding Scientology. It's just garbage." In my opinion
everything you said prior to that just went out the window. Some people think they can have there cake and eat it to; it clearly does matter to you what
religion is relevant.
Errrr, do you know anything about Scientology? I promise you, he's being infinitely kind just calling it garbage. It isn't the people, mind. It's the leadership and the person who founded it. It is also harming people every day because of their ludicrous stance on psychology.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Errrr, do you know anything about Scientology? I promise you, he's being infinitely kind just calling it garbage. It isn't the people, mind. It's the leadership and the person who founded it. It is also harming people every day because of their ludicrous stance on psychology.

Norman: Hi Nietzsche, I don't agree with your opinion about Scientology. Ok, good, I am glad we cleared that up. Have a good night.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
What is more rational? That God somehow suspended cosmic laws for an irrelevant light show, or that some "unbiased" witnesses (and there were none, everyone who was there was expecting to see something, hence not unbiased) saw something in the sky they couldn't explain?

Try logic. It works.

Well given the fact derived from observation and common sense and logic that life and this world could never come into its own, but needed a supreme intelligence or designer --- the former makes far more logical sense than the latter.

I can never understand an atheist or agnostic who also claims a high level of intelligence. No, never will.

And I cannot fathom a God who created man and our trials and sufferings being for naught. God's ways are superior to our ways, and yet, He has revealed enough to us for us to embrace his pleadings and go forward in gratitude.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
How interesting is it that you assume a solar flare must be a miracle? Is every solar flare a miracle of the sun? How about the aurora borealis? WHat about the solar eclipse, is that the work of God?

The stories of three children praying is HARDLY compelling evidence when we have of a solar flare that occurred during the same time period. i mean should I believe the alien abduction people or the scientologists who claimed visions just because they said so?

How insane is it for you to assume coincidence answers every vexing problem in your philosophy on the world?

A coincidence that molecules somehow crashed together and created living matter, then bugs, then eyes, then brains, all without an intelligent designer.

What a coincidence that these three little children predicted a miracle would occur for everyone to see 90 days in advance and then on that exact day and time they showed up, so did your so-called solar flare. One that not only does what a solar flare normally does, but also changed the colors of the entire landscape into blue, green, yellow and red. And not only that, but made the sun grow large and charge the earth. And not only that, but made one Marxist journalist open his mouth in awe, but the one next to him saw no sign of your solar flare.

IOW, you are playing games to keep your preferred agnostic philosophy showing any signs of life or plausibility. Sorry, it won't work.

You also are quick to embrace science and scientists when they champion your "religion," but when others with sound mind describe the miracle they just witnessed, now you are quick to call them victims of mass hallucination.

Maybe you can understand why I lose any zeal talking to the obstinate deniers.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Are there 70,000 reports of the incident? Were they all astronomers?

See my answers directly above this one. I can hardly muster another response. It does not take an astronomer to see the sun grow to a mighty size, turn blood red, and charge the earth. But it does take a real doubter to conjure up such an argument.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
How insane is it for you to assume coincidence answers every vexing problem in your philosophy on the world?

A coincidence that molecules somehow crashed together and created living matter, then bugs, then eyes, then brains, all without an intelligent designer.

What a coincidence that these three little children predicted a miracle would occur for everyone to see 90 days in advance and then on that exact day and time they showed up, so did your so-called solar flare. One that not only does what a solar flare normally does, but also changed the colors of the entire landscape into blue, green, yellow and red. And not only that, but made the sun grow large and charge the earth. And not only that, but made one Marxist journalist open his mouth in awe, but the one next to him saw no sign of your solar flare.

IOW, you are playing games to keep your preferred agnostic philosophy showing any signs of life or plausibility. Sorry, it won't work.

You also are quick to embrace science and scientists when they champion your "religion," but when others with sound mind describe the miracle they just witnessed, now you are quick to call them victims of mass hallucination.

Maybe you can understand why I lose any zeal talking to the obstinate deniers.
"A coincidence that molecules somehow crashed together and created living matter, then bugs, then eyes, then brains, all without an intelligent designer."
Not only did i not argue this, but i'm an agnostic so i don't know is the appropriate answer. But anyways I find that to be more likely than a invisible magical sky entity who has always existed and created this entire universe and evolution so that eventually it could lead to the evolution, 5 billion years later, of some partially evolved apes. Also evolution is a fact, so once you have a self replicating molecule evoltuion carries it the rest of the way.

And its not a coincidence that molecules make certain configurations. its the law of large numbers. There is something like 10^70 atoms in the universe, and there are probably, in a very very modest estimate, 10^60 atoms that could form life in possible habitable environments throughout the universe. Give it 13.7 billion years and suddenly its likely that a self replicating molecule would eventually form. its not a coincidence, its just math and probability.

And a solar flare is also not a coincidence; its a completely valid explanation for the occurrence of the stellar optical phenomena you describe. Atmospheric ozone as well as water vapor can act as a prism for high intensity solar output creating a prism and distortion effect leading to a variety of colors and changes in the apparent size of the sun. The solar flare in 1917 was so power that it in fact broke telegraph lines because it was the flare of the century. Seems like a very good explanation because it occurred at the same time and produces results similar to those described. You're the one who is saying that is just a coincidence--i claim that as the cause, not a coincidence unlike you.

"And not only that, but made one Marxist journalist open his mouth in awe, but the one next to him saw no sign of your solar flare."
So he didn't see colors or changes in the size of the sun? Those are all signs of a solar flare. But that just shows you the unreliability of your observers-- the fact that they give different reports. And opening your mouth in awe isn't evidence for a miracle--it just means you say something that caused awe.

Why is a solar flare so unappealing to you? I mean you're actually the one claiming that it was only a coincidence--it was only a coincidence that the solar flare occurred at the same time of the so called
"miracle". I've yet to hear any scientific reason you think the solar flare isn't at least a possibility. I mean it is actually YOU who is such an obstinate denier in the face of such a good physical explanation. When you have a good physical explanation you don't need God, just like we don't need God to push the planets around because we have a good physical explanation.

"What a coincidence that these three little children predicted a miracle would occur for everyone to see 90 days in advance and then on that exact day and time they showed up"
Not only do I not accept that the children predicted a miracle would occur and instead only claimed that they did, but even if they did make the prediction they probably made like 30 other predictions that some generic miracle would occur, and selection bias made them seem correct when one happened to be correct. Plus it seems unlikely God made three random children prophets to use their clairvoyant skills to see some miracle 3 days in advance. It might also have a bit more credibility if they actually said what the miracle is going to be. Unlikely things happen all the time, which aren't attributed to miracles.


I'm still waiting for an explanation for how they knew which God or Gods allegedly caused this phenomena. I mean there have been a variety of Islamic and Hindu miracles that have a variety of first hand accounts, including many that say people remember their previous lives after reincarnation and allegedly know impossible things.

I mean this is just like the so called miracle of the star of Bethlehem, which was actually a supernova gamma ray burst observed by Chinese astronomers was declared to be a miracle.

"Maybe you can understand why I lose any zeal talking to the obstinate deniers"
Sorry i'm a scientist. i don't accept things willy nilly. I've heard similar arguments from alien abduction groups, Scientologists, Mormons, Muslims, African mythology, etc. If this so called miracle was shown in every city, even on the night side of the planet and reported by billions of people, then your miracle might be more legitimate, but that still wouldn't mean GOd did it--flashing colors and a blood red sun don't mean God. They could mean a variety of deities or maybe even super advanced aliens.I don't see how you can argue that a scientific explanation is less likely than a cosmic rave light show from God when he didn't make it clear at all who caused the so called miracle.

I mean i bet you believe in a variety of miracles--Johan and the whale, Jesus turning water into wine, the virgin birth, the resurrection, all of those.

"You also are quick to embrace science and scientists when they champion your "religion,""
You just called it a philosophy before this. Which is it? You only say religion because you want to say our positions are somehow . Agnosticism isn't a religion obviously. That's like saying not knowing about sex positions is a sex position. Its ridiculous.

"now you are quick to call them victims of mass hallucination"
Except I changed my position when i found evidence of a solar flare. I already agreed that they saw something, but im arguing it was a solar flare. You are sure quick to say that God did it though.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Well given the fact derived from observation and common sense and logic that life and this world could never come into its own, but needed a supreme intelligence or designer --- the former makes far more logical sense than the latter.

I can never understand an atheist or agnostic who also claims a high level of intelligence. No, never will.

And I cannot fathom a God who created man and our trials and sufferings being for naught. God's ways are superior to our ways, and yet, He has revealed enough to us for us to embrace his pleadings and go forward in gratitude.

Yet none of that is actually demonstrably true. What you're engaged in is called the "argument from ignorance". You don't want it to be any other way, therefore you refuse to see any other alternatives. It's a logical fallacy for a reason.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
See my answers directly above this one. I can hardly muster another response. It does not take an astronomer to see the sun grow to a mighty size, turn blood red, and charge the earth. But it does take a real doubter to conjure up such an argument.
People such as astronomers are the only ones qualified to be able to identify what actually happened and/or determine whether or not it was naturally occurring event. As to every other layperson ... it's anyone's guess. I can claim supernatural causes for all kinds of things I don’t understand.

I ask whether there are 70,000 accounts of the event because anybody can say "I saw X happen and there were 200,000 other people there who saw the very same thing, so what I say is true!" I've still only got your word to go on. Even if we could determine that 70,000 people were actually present, we can’t claim that the “vast majority” of them witnessed anything if we don’t have their testimonies. Weren’t there some people who said they didn’t see anything at all? What do you say to that? Not only that, but I could go out right now and read probably hundreds or thousands of testimonies from people claiming to be have been abducted by aliens. Does that mean aliens actually exist? Or do we need some better evidence?

Or let’s say we actually have 70,000 personal accounts of the incident that all match up exactly, down to every little detail. And let’s say every single one of those 70,000 people attributed the event to a god or some of some kind. That doesn’t mean we know that any sort of god was actually responsible for the event. It means we have an occurrence of something that a bunch of people can’t explain. We had 70,000 people show up to an event expecting something supernatural or strange to happen and some of the people saw just that. You don’t think their interpretation of what they saw had anything to do with their expectations?

We know that eyewitness testimony is faulty. We know that people fall victim to confirmation bias all the time. We know that solar flares occur (and apparently a rather large one did occur in 1917) and we know what they look like. And we know that staring at the sun can cause temporary retinal distortions which can produce all kinds of optical effects. How are these not reasonable explanations for what are supposedly occurred in 1917? Why jump to supernatural causes when we already have readily available explanations?
 
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serp777

Well-Known Member
Norman: Hi serp777, Are you saying because you think or believe as you stated "It makes it extremely unlikely someone has the correct religion right now" that there are not people out there that feel they do have the correct religion? I personally feel that I have the correct religion for me, it might not be the right religion for someone else and I did not always believe this way. I believe to let people worship according to the dictate of there own conscious; let them worship whom and how or what they may. I don't pretend as some people to try and question someone else's spiritual convictions, I see no reasoning in that. I have said this in another post, that if people would try to build bridges of understanding between one another instead of arguing or saying I am right and you are wrong cliché there would be understanding. I mean, there is common ground with everyone to build upon if they look for it.
Well obviously I am not saying that people don't think they have the correct religion. I am saying that they're probably wrong because of the variety of mutually exclusive beliefs that humans have invented.

I wasn't arguing that people shouldn't have the ability to determine their own values and beliefs, but I also value my ability to question and be skeptical of unlikely religious beliefs. The reason I question religious beliefs is the same reason i would question someone's political beliefs or someones judgments/ decisions. I'm not afraid of someone questioning my beliefs or values and I don't understand why many people are very offended to such open doubt. Anyways i don't subscribe to that standard and as you can see im not afraid to express myself because some people don't like it.

" I have said this in another post, that if people would try to build bridges of understanding between one another instead of arguing or saying I am right and you are wrong cliché there would be understanding."
And its not cliche because i'm arguing that they're probably wrong, not that i'm right instead except on the position that they're wrong. I don't claim my position is correct clearly because im an agnostic. Agnostic just means you don't know. And I don't value understanding or compromise. I value what is correct and not correct about the religious factual positions such as-- is there a God, or does God care about us, or did he send his son down to forgive us for sins commited by a non existent forebearer, etc. There isn't common ground on these questions. Either someone is right or wrong on these issues. I see no reason to sit down and sing kumbayah. I'd rather have an intense debate than holding hands and hugging puppies and kittens while a rainbow shoots over our heads.
 
It does not take an astronomer to see the sun grow to a mighty size, turn blood red, and charge the earth. But it does take a real doubter to conjure up such an argument.

How many astronomers do you know that stare at the sun with their bare eyes? Your "miracle" has been debunked. No rational unbeliever is going to take it seriously. Let it go.
 

catch22

Active Member
Given that so many different religions exist, many of which are mutually exclusive, and most claim they contain the truth of reality, the odds aren't in your favor that you picked the right religion. This is based on pure statistical analysis, and that's assuming that one religion we have is actually correct.

Statistically speaking, you shouldn't exist. But here you are, breathing all over your keyboard.

Most religious beliefs corresponds with geography--a religion based on truth shouldn't depend on where you're born. Islam will obviously correspond with the middle east and Christianity can be frequently found in the States.

So, this is meaningless. Guess what? The same is true of language. It doesn't mean you can't speak Japanese outside of Japan, it's just more rooted where it came from. The fact Christianity is so wide-spread says something contrary to your clever rhetoric. I mean, Jesus was a jew. From the middle east. Oops!

There have also been countless religious frauds that try to take advantage of people and make money/ manipulate people with religion. Even if a religion happened to be correct at some point, its very possible that respective religion has been polluted so much over time, like telephone, that the religion doesn't even resemble anything like what it started out as. For example the original teachings of Jesus Christ vs the modern catholic faith which includes the pope and hundreds of rituals, and the various Xian sects.

What's your point? People will try to leverage your emotions to take your money? What do you say about car salesmen? Or the guy selling you an engagement band for your girlfriend? Or politicians? Or people on facebook?

The Bible hasn't changed like you think it has. There's evidence to support this. And there's one thing I can't fault my Jewish comrades for and that is lack of detail on maintaining history. They are perfectionists when it comes to sacred texts.

I get it. The modern TV-take-your-money evangelicals have left a sour taste in your mouth and you distrust the authenticity of what they say. I'm with you.

Its one thing to argue that a deism God exists as a kind of philosophical entity, but its another to show that there is an intervening God who cares about what we do with our genitals and what we do with our Sundays, and wants to have an individual relationship with people. Most of the arguments given by people of faiths are all identical to each other which I find to be an amusing reflection that there aren't many good arguments beyond those for deism.

Consider something, will you? Consider that maybe God does care about your genitals and your sunday mornings. Also consider He won't strike you down for doing what's opposite of His desire for your life, but that doesn't mean He hates you or is angry at you. Consider that despite whatever you do, He loves you anyway just because you're His. He loves you so much and doesn't want to lose you, that He would do what's necessary to give you the opportunity to reside with Him for all eternity by bending over backward and making a huge sacrifice for you.

Let me know if you see that in the Quran or in buddhaland... or anywhere else for that matter.

As fo religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, even though I consider Buddhism to resemble more of a philosophy, I haven't seen any convincing evidence of reincarnation or multiple Gods.

Resurrection yes, reincarnation no. Multiple gods is a kind of thing; people can call them gods but I can call you a Toyota. It doesn't make you one.
 
The fact Christianity is so wide-spread says something contrary to your clever rhetoric. I mean, Jesus was a jew. From the middle east. Oops!

It says that Christian fanatics have been travelling around the world pushing their religion on others for centuries. That's all your saying. Religion is something that is taught, like language. Belief in YOUR god is not instinctive to humanity, it is something that is taught, period.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Given that so many different religions exist, many of which are mutually exclusive, and most claim they contain the truth of reality, the odds aren't in your favor that you picked the right religion. This is based on pure statistical analysis, and that's assuming that one religion we have is actually correct.
What, exactly, constitutes "right" and "correct?" Sounds like you're creating a straw man argument to me.
 

catch22

Active Member
It says that Christian fanatics have been travelling around the world pushing their religion on others for centuries. That's all your saying. Religion is something that is taught, like language. Belief in YOUR god is not instinctive to humanity, it is something that is taught, period.

Chicken or the egg? Man can't explain something, he looks up and wonders why it is the way it is. Animals don't do it, but we do. It's not a point worth arguing, granted, because neither side can be right for lack of empirical evidence. But to say something that existed before teaching existed refutes, at the very least, your point.

If it was really that ludicrous of an idea for a few people to come up with and perpetuate, it would have died out long ago with the unicycle.

...er wait.
 
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