"A coincidence that molecules somehow crashed together and created living matter, then bugs, then eyes, then brains, all without an intelligent designer."
Not only did i not argue this, but i'm an agnostic so i don't know is the appropriate answer. But anyways I find that to be more likely than a invisible magical sky entity who has always existed and created this entire universe and evolution so that eventually it could lead to the evolution, 5 billion years later, of some partially evolved apes. Also evolution is a fact, so once you have a self replicating molecule evoltuion carries it the rest of the way.
And its not a coincidence that molecules make certain configurations. its the law of large numbers. There is something like 10^70 atoms in the universe, and there are probably, in a very very modest estimate, 10^60 atoms that could form life in possible habitable environments throughout the universe. Give it 13.7 billion years and suddenly its likely that a self replicating molecule would eventually form. its not a coincidence, its just math and probability.
And a solar flare is also not a coincidence; its a completely valid explanation for the occurrence of the stellar optical phenomena you describe. Atmospheric ozone as well as water vapor can act as a prism for high intensity solar output creating a prism and distortion effect leading to a variety of colors and changes in the apparent size of the sun. The solar flare in 1917 was so power that it in fact broke telegraph lines because it was the flare of the century. Seems like a very good explanation because it occurred at the same time and produces results similar to those described. You're the one who is saying that is just a coincidence--i claim that as the cause, not a coincidence unlike you.
"And not only that, but made one Marxist journalist open his mouth in awe, but the one next to him saw no sign of your solar flare."
So he didn't see colors or changes in the size of the sun? Those are all signs of a solar flare. But that just shows you the unreliability of your observers-- the fact that they give different reports. And opening your mouth in awe isn't evidence for a miracle--it just means you say something that caused awe.
Why is a solar flare so unappealing to you? I mean you're actually the one claiming that it was only a coincidence--it was only a coincidence that the solar flare occurred at the same time of the so called
"miracle". I've yet to hear any scientific reason you think the solar flare isn't at least a possibility. I mean it is actually YOU who is such an obstinate denier in the face of such a good physical explanation. When you have a good physical explanation you don't need God, just like we don't need God to push the planets around because we have a good physical explanation.
"What a coincidence that these three little children predicted a miracle would occur for everyone to see 90 days in advance and then on that exact day and time they showed up"
Not only do I not accept that the children predicted a miracle would occur and instead only claimed that they did, but even if they did make the prediction they probably made like 30 other predictions that some generic miracle would occur, and selection bias made them seem correct when one happened to be correct. Plus it seems unlikely God made three random children prophets to use their clairvoyant skills to see some miracle 3 days in advance. It might also have a bit more credibility if they actually said what the miracle is going to be. Unlikely things happen all the time, which aren't attributed to miracles.
I'm still waiting for an explanation for how they knew which God or Gods allegedly caused this phenomena. I mean there have been a variety of Islamic and Hindu miracles that have a variety of first hand accounts, including many that say people remember their previous lives after reincarnation and allegedly know impossible things.
I mean this is just like the so called miracle of the star of Bethlehem, which was actually a supernova gamma ray burst observed by Chinese astronomers was declared to be a miracle.
"Maybe you can understand why I lose any zeal talking to the obstinate deniers"
Sorry i'm a scientist. i don't accept things willy nilly. I've heard similar arguments from alien abduction groups, Scientologists, Mormons, Muslims, African mythology, etc. If this so called miracle was shown in every city, even on the night side of the planet and reported by billions of people, then your miracle might be more legitimate, but that still wouldn't mean GOd did it--flashing colors and a blood red sun don't mean God. They could mean a variety of deities or maybe even super advanced aliens.I don't see how you can argue that a scientific explanation is less likely than a cosmic rave light show from God when he didn't make it clear at all who caused the so called miracle.
I mean i bet you believe in a variety of miracles--Johan and the whale, Jesus turning water into wine, the virgin birth, the resurrection, all of those.
"You also are quick to embrace science and scientists when they champion your "religion,""
You just called it a philosophy before this. Which is it? You only say religion because you want to say our positions are somehow . Agnosticism isn't a religion obviously. That's like saying not knowing about sex positions is a sex position. Its ridiculous.
"now you are quick to call them victims of mass hallucination"
Except I changed my position when i found evidence of a solar flare. I already agreed that they saw something, but im arguing it was a solar flare. You are sure quick to say that God did it though.
(me: "A coincidence that molecules somehow crashed together and created living matter, then bugs, then eyes, then brains, all without an intelligent designer.")
[Serp: “
Not only did i not argue this, but i'm an agnostic so i don't know is the appropriate answer. But anyways I find that to be more likely than a invisible magical sky entity who has always existed and created this entire universe and evolution so that eventually it could lead to the evolution, 5 billion years later, of some partially evolved apes. Also evolution is a fact, so once you have a self replicating molecule evoltuion carries it the rest of the way.
“ And its not a coincidence that molecules make certain configurations. its the law of large numbers. There is something like 10^70 atoms in the universe, and there are probably, in a very very modest estimate, 10^60 atoms that could form life in possible habitable environments throughout the universe. Give it 13.7 billion years and suddenly its likely that a self replicating molecule would eventually form. its not a coincidence, its just math and probability.”]
All very interesting except I find the “laws” of probability very much not on your side. Not even in the realm of discussion. But if “by chance” molecules had some rave parties and started making babies, the probabilities would also say for every success we should see a billion failures. We see virtually none. We should see tons of failures in the fossil record between a reptile and a bird with wings and feathers. But the fossil record is quite remarkable in that every one of them is a bona fide success. I am also always charmed by how mindless molecules decided it was time to make a pancreas when once there was none.
[Serp: “And a solar flare is also not a coincidence; its a completely valid explanation for the occurrence of the stellar optical phenomena you describe. Atmospheric ozone as well as water vapor can act as a prism for high intensity solar output creating a prism and distortion effect leading to a variety of colors and changes in the apparent size of the sun. The solar flare in 1917 was so power that it in fact broke telegraph lines because it was the flare of the century. Seems like a very good explanation because it occurred at the same time and produces results similar to those described. You're the one who is saying that is just a coincidence--i claim that as the cause, not a coincidence unlike you.”]
First of all, a solar flare is not what those present witnessed. The sun grew enormous in size and charged the earth. It caused the multitudes to scream and fall to their knees. Of course you doubt it because it would discredit your solar flare theory. So now it is mass hallucination. How crazy they all “hallucinated” the very same thing. How crazy that you and yours can just dismiss the testimonies of scientists and atheists present who had no intention of expecting to see anything but a means to dismiss what these children were claiming. And finally --- what a coincidence your solar flare occurred on that very day at that very time the children showed up.
[Serp: “Not only do I not accept that the children predicted a miracle would occur (90 days in advance) and instead only claimed that they did, but even if they did make the prediction they probably made like 30 other predictions that some generic miracle would occur, and selection bias made them seem correct when one happened to be correct.” ]
Then how do you explain 70,000 people showing up on that day slogging through mud in the pouring rain? How do you explain govt officials imprisoning them for days a month earlier, interrogating them separately, and threatening them with being boiled in oil if they do not recant? They also told each child the other ones had already been boiled. Pretty drastic.
Sorry, serp. You are only wishing they made all kinds of fake predictions, do you have any evidence of that? We have empirical evidence for our claims. We also have the news reports from those days in Marxist newspapers. We also have the testimonies of unbiased professionals which you so do not want to give any credence to. Oh, but because they are not astronomers so they are incapable of deductive reasoning I guess?
[Serp: “I'm still waiting for an explanation for how they knew which God or Gods allegedly caused this phenomena.” ]
Because it walks, talks, smells, sounds and looks like a duck, serp. It’s a duck. The children were praying the rosary when she first appeared. The children repeated the words of the lady they claimed to see who said she was the Virgin Mary. She told them of Jesus, to repent of their sins, to pray the rosary. She showed them a vision of hell and spoke of purgatory. It was very Christian!
[Serp: “Sorry i'm a scientist. i don't accept things willy nilly. I've heard similar arguments from alien abduction groups, Scientologists, Mormons, Muslims, African mythology, etc.”]
We do not care about other fantastic claims, serp. You are slinging mud hoping something will stick. Stick to the facts surrounding Fatima. Will nilly?... please.
I have to cut this short Serp. I understand your other and related points I omitted here. I can see that my answers will not satisfy your doubts. So I am fine that we agree to disagree. We both need to move on to other discussions perhaps. But for the sake of anyone reading this post I am going to reprint a few testimonies of those either at the scene of the miracle or miles away. For me, I cannot deny their authenticity validating the truth of the matter. Unless you are claiming all these testimonies are made up lies? Again, where is your proof of that? Otherwise, it lays your solar flare theory to the garbage heap. (imo)
I repeat:
Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett,
professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal. “… The sun's disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a, heavenly body, for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl. Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was terrible …All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind, and without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them.”
Portuguese aristocrat Baron of Alvaiazere: “. . . An indescribable impression overtook me. I only know that I cried out: I believe
! I believe
! And tears ran from my eyes. I was amazed, in ecstasy before the demonstration of Divine power . . . converted in that moment.”
Dr. Formigao,
Professor at Santarem seminary: “As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendour. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes. “The immense multitude, overcome by the evidence of such a tremendous prodigy, threw themselves on their knees. The Creed, the Hail Mary, acts of contrition, burst from all lips, and tears, tears of thanksgiving and repentance sprang from all eyes.”
Lawyer, Carlos Mendes
: “I saw the sun as if it were a ball of fire, begin to move in the clouds. It had been raining all morning and the sky was full of clouds, but the rain had stopped. It lasted for several seconds, crushingly pressing down on us. Wan faces, standing here, from every side great ejaculations, acts of contrition, of the love of God. An indescribable moment! We feel it. We remain dominated by it. But it is not possible to describe it.”
Excerpt from Wikipedia article quoting the Marxist journalist:
"Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws — the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people." ― Avelino de Almeida,
writing for the Marxist Lisbon newspaper O Século.
Abano Barros (a building contractor) witnessed the apparition from the village of Minde
, eight miles away… “I was watching sheep, as was my daily task, and suddenly, there in the direction of Fátima, I saw the sun fall from the sky. I thought it was the end of the world.”
Fr. Ignacio Lorenco (Alburitel,
11 miles away): “… I feel incapable of describing what I saw and felt. I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt the eyes. Looking like a ball of snow revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zigzag, menacing the earth. Terrified, I ran and hid myself among the people, who were weeping and expecting the end of the world at any moment. Near us was an unbeliever who had spent the morning mocking at the simpletons who had gone off to Fátima just to see an ordinary girl. He now seemed to be paralyzed, his eyes fixed on the sun. Afterwards he trembled from head to foot and lifting up his arms fell on his knees in the mud, crying out to our Lady.”
