Your understanding of the difference of sufism vs Islam

[Spirit of Light]

I'm neither one.



I perceive Sufism to be a particularly pietist subset of Islam. It is the practice of inward devotion to God as contrasted with the arguably more superficial devotion inherent in Islamic legalism. Religion of the heart one might say. As such, Sufism seems to me to encompass much of the deep and abundant contemplative tradition of Islam.



I'm not 100% convinced that they are "two teachings". Traditional Sufism, as I understand it, typically treats outward adherence to Islamic law as a necessary training, discipline and preparation for the deeper inner transformations of adherence to God as they conceive it.

As for me, I'm very much a Western secularist. Islamic law puts me off bigtime. (I won't say more because I don't want to offend our Islamic RF'ers. But it's where I'm coming from.) The strands of Islamic tradition that most interest me as an interested non-Muslim are the deep and interesting philosophical and the Sufi strands.

It is good to hear you realised what difference there is sufism and mainstream Islam and you are correct in that sufism is very much in to purifying the heart, even to a point of unconditional love

 

[firedragon]

There is two components to Panentheism:

God transcends all things
God is all things

I think the Adam (a) chapter shows both and why and how, but which one of the two you asking proof for?

Which passage shows that? Panentheism.

I am not looking for definitions of panentheism.

 

[firedragon]

I perceive Sufism to be a particularly pietist subset of Islam. It is the practice of inward devotion to God as contrasted with the arguably more superficial devotion inherent in Islamic legalism. Religion of the heart one might say. As such, Sufism seems to me to encompass much of the deep and abundant contemplative tradition of Islam.

You should go back in history and study all kinds of Islamic traditions and thoughts. You will be surprised. But, a "religion of the heart", maybe means a religion you create within yourself.

One thing you should know is Sufism is not monolithic. And I think you have a modern day, famously promoted idea of sufism. Not traditional or general. You should read up on Sufi critics of Sufism. And Sufi critics of Sufi elders or scholars. Just take a look. It would amaze you.

 

[firedragon]

This is from Du'a Jawthan Kabir (from Nabi Mohammad (s) - he use to carry this du'a which has 1000 titles from God to battle), the following is 10 titles:

يَا نُورَ النُّورِ
O Light of the light,
ya nuran-nur

يَا مُنَوِّرَ النُّورِ
O Illuminator of light,
ya munaw-wiran-nur

يَا خَاِلقَ النُّورِ
O Creator of light
ya khaliqan-nur

يَا مُدَبِّرَ النُّورِ
O Planner of light,
ya mudab-biran-nuri

يَا مُقَدِّرَ النُّورِ
O measurer/limiter of light,
ya muqad-diran-nur

يَا نُورَ كُلِّ نُورٍ
O Light of every light,
ya nura kul-li nur

يَّا نُوراً قَبْلَ كُلِّ نُورٍ
O Light before every light,
ya nuran qab-la kul-li nur

يَّا نُوراً بَعْدَ كُلِّ نُورٍ
O Light after every light,
ya nuram ba`a-da kul-li nur

يَّا نُوراً فَوْقَ كُلِّ نُورٍ
O Light that is above every light,
ya nuran faw-qa kul-li nur

يَّا نُوراً لَّيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ نُورٌ
O Light like of which there is no light.
ya nural-laysa kamith-lihi nur

سُبْحَانَكَ يَا لا إلَهَ إلاّ أنْتَ
Praise be to You, there is no god but You,
subhanaka ya la ilaha illa anta

الغَوْثَ الغَوْثَ
[I beseech you for] the help, the help
al-ghawth al-ghawth

خَلِّصْنا مِنَ النّارِ يا رَبِّ.
Free us from the Fire, O Lord.
khallisna minan-nari ya rabb

When was this written down?

 

[Link]

When was this written down?

During time of Imam Zainal Abideen (a). Shiites would write hadiths down - we don't orally transmit them like Sunnis. We wrote them down, met each other in secret, and would narrate from each other collections of hadith books despite it being forbidden by law to transmit hadiths in written form, and that is how we spread hadiths.

 

[Link]

Of course, Dua' Jawthan Kabir was written by companions of Mohammad (s) as well, but hadiths were burned and all books other then Quran were forbidden to be written and so it probably disappeared for sometime. Then people wrote some hadiths in commentary of Quran, and so this is why Uthman collected the Qurans, to delete commentary from Rasool (s).

During time of Imam Zainal Abideen (a), there were many rebellions, and Tawabeen movement lead by Mukhtar (r), and so Ummayads I think were too busy to enforce all the non-hadith writing policy of previous rulers. And it's not like Shiites cared for what Ummayads said was law anyways.

Du'a Jawthan was transmitted and emphasized by Imam Zainal Abideen (a), it's taught originally by Gabriel (a) to Mohammad (s) and there is no reason for me to doubt it.

 

[firedragon]

During time of Imam Zainal Abideen (a). Shiites would write hadiths down - we don't orally transmit them like Sunnis. We wrote them down, met each other in secret, and would narrate from each other collections of hadith books despite it being forbidden by law to transmit hadiths in written form, and that is how we spread hadiths.

Do you really believe this was written down in the mid 7th century? But the arabic is way off bro? I mean seriously.

 

[Link]

Do you really believe this was written down in the mid 7th century? But the arabic is way off bro? I mean seriously.

What is way off about the Arabic?

 

[Link]

Do you really believe this was written down in the mid 7th century? But the arabic is way off bro? I mean seriously.

We didn't have printing press, so this how hadiths became famous, and as for Du'as I already explained, they were practiced by whole community. They were passed to us beyond chains of narrations we have for them.

The main Du'as we have including this one, to me, is with no doubt from Ahlulbayt (a).

 

[firedragon]

We didn't have printing press, so this how hadiths became famous, and as for Du'as I already explained, they were practiced by whole community. They were passed to us beyond chains of narrations we have for them.

The main Du'as we have including this one, to me, is with no doubt from Ahlulbayt (a).

They didnt have a printing press in the 7th century? Wow. Thats new information. I thought they had MacBooks, Digital printers and gloss paper then?

Cmon brother. Please dont make this kind of statement.

So you say now that they were passed down by chains of narrations, earlier you said they were written down. Thats conflicting.

I can vouch to the fact that this could not have been "written down"in the 7th century. This is not Fusha aththuraath, its more like a 300 year old language. Maybe 400 years. Maybe.

Passed down or written down, unless people passed down in a foreign language, and later translated it into arabic recently, this could not be 7th century work. No way.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

What is way off about the Arabic?

Its not the arabic of the time. Way, way off.

 

[Link]

Its not the arabic of the time. Way, way off.

What of it is off from the Arabic of that time? All the words used are found in Quran.

 

[firedragon]

What of it is off from the Arabic of that time? All the words used are found in Quran.

I got this from your post since I am not familiar with your Dua's. Hallasna is not used in the Fusha. Not in that way.

But of course, since you said its in the Quran, you can give me the verse. I will take a look at it.

And do you have any manuscripts of this since you said it was written down? What is the oldest manuscript of this? Maybe at least we could take a look at the writing style and the mail.

I am not trying to offend you in this. This is interesting.

 

[Link]

I got this from your post since I am not familiar with your Dua's. Hallasna is not used in the Fusha. Not in that way.

But of course, since you said its in the Quran, you can give me the verse. I will take a look at it.

And do you have any manuscripts of this since you said it was written down? What is the oldest manuscript of this? Maybe at least we could take a look at the writing style and the mail.

I am not trying to offend you in this. This is interesting.

The word occurs in Surah Saad. The context there is about choosing them for next world, but in the meaning, it means they been chosen without any regards to this world. This world has no measurement to their chosen status. Their chosen status in this world and next is all for the next. All but remembrance for the next world has no effect on their chosen status. There is no proper translation of this, but it means they are made for the next world only and risen and chosen for it. Their leadership, Prophethood, is all for the next world.

Now you apply the word in context of "minal naar" "from the fire", it means, to make it completely gone and to leave none of it as a threat for us. When we worship God sincerely, it means, we don't put anything with God in Worship, he alone is Worshipped without partners. "From fire" application of the word means finish us completely from it.

If it said lel naar it means make us for it. If it says "menal" is means in this context, completely free from it.

Arabic words are context defined. They have multiple meaning. For example, uthhab in certain contexts means to go to, in other contexts it means something else.

 

[firedragon]

The word occurs in Surah Saad. The context there is about choosing them for next world, but in the meaning, it means they been chosen without any regards to this world. This world has no measurement to their chosen status. Their chosen status in this world and next is all for the next. All but remembrance for the next world has no effect on their chosen status. There is no proper translation of this, but it means they are made for the next world only and risen and chosen for it. Their leadership, Prophethood, is all for the next world.

Now you apply the word in context of "minal naar" "from the fire", it means, to make it completely gone and to leave none of it as a threat for us. When we worship God sincerely, it means, we don't put anything with God in Worship, he alone is Worshipped without partners. "From fire" application of the word means finish us completely from it.

If it said lel naar it means make us for it. If it says "menal" is means in this context, completely free from it.

Arabic words are context defined. They have multiple meaning. For example, uthhab in certain contexts means to go to, in other contexts it means something else.

Arabic words are "context defined"? Wow. Brand new information.

Bro. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but this is new language. In the Qur'an, of course the word is used, but it means "cloven".

Never-mind.

What is the oldest writing still surviving? Oldest manuscript?

 

[River Sea]

A lot of Sufi quotes are in our literature and Baha’u’llah had the highest regard for them so I would very much like to know more.

Which Sufi quotes that are in the Bahaullah do you use to help you in your situations?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which Sufi quotes that are in the Bahaullah do you use to help you in your situations?

Actually throughout His writings there are numerous but quite a few in the Seven valleys. He quotes Attar a bit.

Farīd al-Dīn ʿAṭṭār | Mystic, Sufi, Poet | Britannica

Farīd al-Dīn ʿAṭṭār was a Persian Muslim poet who was one of the greatest Sufi (mystical) writers and thinkers, composing at least 45,000 distichs (couplets) and many brilliant prose works. As a young man Farīd al-Dīn traveled widely, visiting Egypt, Syria, Arabia, India, and Central Asia. He

www.britannica.com

 

[River Sea]

Actually throughout His writings there are numerous but quite a few in the Seven valleys. He quotes Attar a bit.

Farīd al-Dīn ʿAṭṭār | Mystic, Sufi, Poet | Britannica

Farīd al-Dīn ʿAṭṭār was a Persian Muslim poet who was one of the greatest Sufi (mystical) writers and thinkers, composing at least 45,000 distichs (couplets) and many brilliant prose works. As a young man Farīd al-Dīn traveled widely, visiting Egypt, Syria, Arabia, India, and Central Asia. He

www.britannica.com

Further down this post I read from another website about worshipping stars that these people did, and I wonder: could it be that worshipping stars is actually analyzing horoscopes and somehow it's a misinterpretation to analyze some how they were thinking they were worshipping? I was thinking about this later after posting. Good thing I was able to add this here in this post. I understand this post is appearing a lot to read. But I'm processing.


@loverofhumanity from the website you shared in quotes.

{Zoroastrian (members of a monotheistic, but later dualistic, religion founded by Zoroaster, an Iranian prophet who lived before the 6th century bce), Indian (Hindu and Buddhist, primarily), and Ṣābian (star worshippers of Harran often confused with the Mandaeans) communities}

My thoughts: So star worshippers of Harran are often confused with the Mandaeans; I wonder how that confusion happened. Later the Mandaeans follow John the Baptist, so how would star worshippers of Harran in relation to later John the Baptist that later the Mandaeans followed? Was it about stars that they'd worshipped before later following John the Baptist? What does that mean, worshipping stars?

The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran by E.S. Dower -- The Gnostic Society Library

The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran by E. S. Drower Mandaean Scriptures, Mandaean Scriptures Collection, part of a vast collection of materials dealing with Gnosis and Gnosticism, both ancient and modern. The site includes the Gnostic Library, with the complete Nag Hammadi Library and a large...

gnosis.org

From website The Gnostic Society Library Mandaean Scriptures and Fragments The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran by E.S. Dower
{however, a good deal to indicate that the Harranians had points of common belief which the orthodox Mandaeans, and that the learned Sabians of the Caliph's capital chose to assume Neoplatonic terms in speaking of their religion in order to lend an air of scholarship and philosophy to their tenets.}

My thoughts: So the Harranians have common beliefs with the orthodox Mandaeans, yet what is this about worshipping a star? Have you ever worshipped a star before? If you do what are your reasons to worship a star?

Again I see worshipping stars from that website The Gnostic Society Library Mandaean Scriptures and Fragments The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran by E.S. Dower
{Recently an Arab author who had been a student for some time in Lower Iraq wrote an article in an Egyptian periodical about the Subba, or Mandaeans, in which he described them as star-worshippers.}

@GoodAttention @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Have you ever heard of Harranians as worshipping stars and how the Harranians are similar to the Mandaeans?

@loverofhumanity Maybe the Harranians and Mandaeans that claims worshipping stars is actually analyzing Horoscopes and back when they'd thought they were worshipping stars, yet actually it's reading Horoscopes, what do you think? Because how come the word worship for, what is worship? Was it a misinterpretation?

And the Sufi's circle whirling
Why do whirling dervishes spin counterclockwise?
Many metaphysicians say that it is to match the Earth's counter clock-wise rotation.

I'm going to repeat what I put on top my post due to processing in my mind this website and word worship star because what is worship actually:

I read from another website about worshipping stars that these people did, and I wonder: could it be that worshipping stars is actually analyzing horoscopes and somehow it's a misinterpretation to analyze some how they were thinking they were worshipping? I was thinking about this later after posting. Good thing I was able to add this here in this post. I understand this post is appearing a lot to read. But I'm processing in my mind.

 

[River Sea]

@loverofhumanity
Have you ever circle-whirling before? If you had, what was the experience for you in spirituality?

I wonder if Islam's people also circle whirling? Adding info, Sufi came from Islam, I think it did. Well I'll still keep my question there.

Sufi's circle whirling
The Whirling Sufi Dervishes

 

[River Sea]

Actually throughout His writings there are numerous but quite a few in the Seven valleys. He quotes Attar a bit.

I shorten this post

@loverofhumanity
I learned Sufi is poetry.

A sufi quote:
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." “Goodbyes are only for those who love with their eyes. Because for those who love with heart and soul there is no such thing as separation.” Essential Rumi. If I let go of what I am, I become what I could be - Lao Tze.

Which Sufi quotes that are in the Bahaullah do you use to help you in your situations?

@loverofhumanity
you shared the biography Farid al Din Attar, which is fine; however, I was mistaking land, about 7 valleys.

This is when I realized 7 valleys not land when finding website online.

The Seven Valleys can be read in full at the Bahá’í Reference Library. Here's seven valleys—of search, love, knowledge, unity, contentment, wonderment, and 'true poverty and absolute nothingness'.

shorter post.