You're a WHAT!?!

[TheKnight]

But lesbians are okay? Because they're not having anal sex? o.o That's weird.

I'm actually not sure. Some opinions say that lesbianism is forbidden, some say it isn't. I follow the opinion that it is.

Friend TheKnight,



Personally started with *Who am I?*
be4cause the basis of what can be probed only after it is known as to who is there to know about *WHAT*

Sorry, till date could never know as to *WHO am I?* and still stck up here.
Best Wishes.
LOve & rgds

I think I'm going to enjoy reading your posts.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I have been an observant B'nai Noach for about 7 years now and was a christian for about 7 years before that. I went through all the stages of confusion concerning conversion to Judaism and have ruled it out. My wife would not convert with me and I figure it's better to be a 100% observant Gentile than a non-100% observant Jew. It's all or nothing.

I have a very hard time with explaining my faith because there is never a short answer that doesn't lead to more questions and in many cases an argument. I'm a caregiver for Hospice and many of my patients are christians so when a conversation turns to religion I kind of have to keep it under wraps because we generally never talk about religion or politics. One thing I never do is qualify based on christianity. I always get the question, "So you're not a christian?" and I respectfully answer, "Well, I don't really like to base my life on what I'm not.".

And I totally avoid the Jesus subject. Yes I know all the reasons why I don't believe Jesus to be the Moshiach but this doesn't mean I need to beat people over the head with the facts and possibly damage their faith in Hashem. And in all actuallity it's OK for Gentiles to be christians. Their faith is just a tick off of full observance of the Noahide laws. Except for their belief that Jesus was G-d incarnate they pretty much observe all seven laws. And this goes double for our Muslim brothers as they are fully observant of the seven laws. They are closer to us than christians actually. Live and let live I say.

Good thread TheKnight.

 

[TheKnight]

I have been an observant B'nai Noach for about 7 years now and was a christian for about 7 years before that. I went through all the stages of confusion concerning conversion to Judaism and have ruled it out. My wife would not convert with me and I figure it's better to be a 100% observant Gentile than a non-100% observant Jew. It's all or nothing.

I have a very hard time with explaining my faith because there is never a short answer that doesn't lead to more questions and in many cases an argument. I'm a caregiver for Hospice and many of my patients are christians so when a conversation turns to religion I kind of have to keep it under wraps because we generally never talk about religion or politics. One thing I never do is qualify based on christianity. I always get the question, "So you're not a christian?" and I respectfully answer, "Well, I don't really like to base my life on what I'm not.".

And I totally avoid the Jesus subject. Yes I know all the reasons why I don't believe Jesus to be the Moshiach but this doesn't mean I need to beat people over the head with the facts and possibly damage their faith in Hashem. And in all actuallity it's OK for Gentiles to be christians. Their faith is just a tick off of full observance of the Noahide laws. Except for their belief that Jesus was G-d incarnate they pretty much observe all seven laws. And this goes double for our Muslim brothers as they are fully observant of the seven laws. They are closer to us than christians actually. Live and let live I say.

Good thread TheKnight.

That's interesting. It does suck when you try to explain what you believe and people just sort of go like "Huh?"

I also try to avoid the Jesus debates, although recently I've found them necessary.

It's good to see that there are other Bnei Noach here.

 

[NoahideHiker]

That's interesting. It does suck when you try to explain what you believe and people just sort of go like "Huh?"

I also try to avoid the Jesus debates, although recently I've found them necessary.

It's good to see that there are other Bnei Noach here.

There are a few of us here but not many and we have very few places we can have peaceful discussions. We're not allowed to participate in the Jewish forums (which bite anyhow because most of the frum Jews have left) and the Abrahamic section will only bring debate.

I find the jesus debate can easily be quelled by a simple request, "Tell me where it says in the Jewish scriptures that salvation is dependent upon the worship of, following of or even the belief in the Moshiach. Find that and then we'll talk.". And I really have no reason to prove anyone wrong. I'm not threatened by the beliefs of others.

 

[Lucian]

How did you convert? Is there somekind of specific process?
How do the Jews feel about it?
Would you be welcome to the synagogue? I know the Jews that are around here don't really advertise and mostly keep to their own circle. I would imagine a Noahide is left out of much of the Jewish life.

And one question from my thick-headed friend: Is the lack of a temple in Jerusalem or the lack of a Torah-abiding state of Israel a problem to your practice?

 

[TheKnight]

How did you convert?

I have not converted yet.

Is there somekind of specific process?

Yes. More information on the conversion can be found here.

How do the Jews feel about it?

It differs from person to person, as with anything.

Would you be welcome to the synagogue?

Depends on the synagogue. I know that Chabad synagogues are open to people.

I know the Jews that are around here don't really advertise and mostly keep to their own circle. I would imagine a Noahide is left out of much of the Jewish life.

Again, it differs. Chabad, a Jewish group, is really open to helping out Noahides and they are just generally kind to pretty much everyone. There are, however, some groups that are not as open to Noahides. From what I understand, non-Orthodox groups are not as accepting of Noahides. Particularly because non-Orthodox groups generally don't accept the Oral Tradition.

And one question from my thick-headed friend: Is the lack of a temple in Jerusalem or the lack of a Torah-abiding state of Israel a problem to your practice?

Not at all. The lack of the Temple, while tragic, is not a problem. It does require that certain practices be changed in order to adapt to the different Halakhic situations that the Jews have to deal with. For a Noahide, it doesn't really change our practice. The extent of Noahide obligation is his/her observance of the Seven Laws. Anything outside of that is up to the Noahide.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Are you asking about converting to be a Noahide or Jew? Since TheKnight covered the Jewish conversion I'll cover the other just in case that's what you meant.

How did you convert?

There is no real conversion, it's just who you are. Now, the newly conveaned Sanhedren has formed a Noahide Council and they have formalized some things such as a informal ceremoney where you go before the council and declair yourself a Naohide. Personally I don't see the need for it but if others would like to do it that's fine. One of the mitzvahs of the Seven Laws is that we are not to form a formalized religion. So any type of formalizing of the Noahide movement makes me nervous and I generally avoid it.

Is there somekind of specific process?

See above.

How do the Jews feel about it?

The Orthodox and especially the Hassidics love it. They fully understand the roles Hashem has for Jews and for the Gentiles. When they see Gentiles realizing they are Noahides they see it as fulfillment and one step closer to full redemption of the world. When I meet a reform Jew and tell them I am a B'nai Noach they look at me like I have three heads because they don't even know what that is.

Would you be welcome to the synagogue?

This is something we struggle with a great deal. Many B'nai Noach are former christians who had churches and a large church family. When you tell your church family you are leaving the faith they tend to not be your family any more. LOL! It's understandably hurtful for them and I do not blame them. So someone becomes a Noahide and they have no church and no church family so they turn to the Jews, normally Chabad. They seak to replace the old church and family with the Chabad synagogue and it's congregation. But generally it's not there and it's not going to happen. The two major Hassidic sects, Chabad and Brezlov, do welcome B'nai Noach to come to synagogue and pray and observe the services but they may not actively participate as we are not Jewish.

I know the Jews that are around here don't really advertise and mostly keep to their own circle.

Yes, synagogues are not like churches where the doors are thrown open and all are welcome. The respectful thing for us Gentiles to do is to find a synagogue we would like to visit and contact the rabbi for permission to visit and make the boundries clear as to what is expected of the Gentile to do and not to do.

I would imagine a Noahide is left out of much of the Jewish life.

There are some Jewish holidays we are allowed to participate in if they have a universal theme to them or we celebrate it a little differently from the view point of thanks giving for the preservation of the Jewish people. It is also important that we learn where the boundries are between Jew and Gentile and keep those lines well defined. I try not to do anything that "looks Jewish" or that would lead anyone to think I was Jewish. Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. We both have our roles to play. This can be hard sometimes, especially foir new Noahides because we have to over come this false feeling of being a second class citizen.

And one question from my thick-headed friend: Is the lack of a temple in Jerusalem or the lack of a Torah-abiding state of Israel a problem to your practice?

Not in the least. Hashem not only told the Jews that they would be without a temple for a period but He told them in more than one place in scripture what they were to do without it.

I Kings 46-50
46. If they sin against You, for (there is) no man who does not sin, and You will be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, and their captors will carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near. מו. 47. And they shall bethink themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness.' מז. 48. And they shall return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land, which You gave to their fathers, the city that You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your Name. מח. 49. And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. מט. 50. And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.
Hosea 14:3

3. Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

In addition there is the promise of the third and final temple which is complete with a court of the Gentiles.

 

[Lucian]

Thanks for the answers. I was indeed mostly asking about how one becomes a Noahide and what the reactions are, though answers from both sides are good, but it seems to be pretty clear now what it is. Especially clarifying is the fact that it's not and shouldn't be a formalized religion. It's quite understandable.

I considered it years ago but the rabbi that I saw and who was explaining about the synagogue when we were touring it was one of the scariest people I've seen. I wouldn't even dare to ask if an "outsider" could attend services. So I quickly abandoned that thought. They seem to have this attitude that "Judaism is more a cultural thing than anything, it's not really a religion, now go away". It's probably since they're such a small and close-knit group and don't want converts. Also interesting was the fact that not many Jews themselves even attend their services regularly, so the secularization trend is the same as with the "traditional church". I would classify them more as conservative rather than orthodox or reform.

So the essence is mostly following the seven principles. Since they are the core of being "a righteous gentile", perhaps you guys could somehow clarify what the rules contain since the ones in the first post are pretty general. I would also like to ask if you are familiar with, and what is Chabad Lubavitch?

 

[TheKnight]

Thanks for the answers.

You're welcome.

I'd just like to clarify the meaning of the fact that we aren't to make a formalized religion out of it. The general understanding of the Seven Laws is that they are to be an ethical/moral system for the non-Jewish world to live by. Therefore there is going to be some structure, but the extent of it is purely legal.

The religious aspect, is entirely up to the individual. That is the beauty of the Seven Laws, you decide how you want to worship God, you decide where you worship God, you even decide what you believe about God (so long as you do not violate the first two laws).

So the essence is mostly following the seven principles. Since they are the core of being "a righteous gentile", perhaps you guys could somehow clarify what the rules contain since the ones in the first post are pretty general.

There are Seven Principles which can be expanded into 66 laws. If you are really eager for information on the Noahide Laws, Noahide.org.uk and Noahide.org (both sponsered by Chabad) are great resources.

I would also like to ask if you are familiar with, and what is Chabad Lubavitch?

Chabad Lubavitch, founded by Rabbi Schnuer Zalman of Liadi, is an organization that incorporates the teachings of Hasidus (the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov) into daily life.

A problem that seems to happen, and I believe you alluded to this yourself, is that people (in their observance of the laws) tend to lose the emotional connection within in it. It becomes a routine and the spiritual part then becomes lacking. This problem isn't new, even Isaiah mentions it in Isaiah 64.

Within (Orthodox) Judaism there are many dimensions to the Torah. There is the practical dimension (ie the literal reading of it combined with Talmudic commentary) and then there is the hidden aspect of it (discovered by four levels of interpretation). This hidden aspect is often called the Kabbalah.

Chabad (as a Hasidic group) combines the teachings of Kabbalah, with the practice of everyday law (a tradition that is believed to have gone back to Moses himself). That's what the organization is all about. They seek to bring Jews out of the clutches of other religions and back to their cultural heritage of observing Torah. In addition to this, the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe taught that since we are in the times of Moshiach or Messiah (may he come speedily and in our days) the Jews must focus on their mission of being a "light to the nations". That being said, Chabad is also a great resource for Gentiles who are seeking to know more about the Noaide laws.

Chabad has done some pretty spectacular things for the Jewish and Gentile communities. They offer a vibrant, open, loving, caring environment where both Jew and Gentile (observant and non-observant) can learn about the Torah and put it into practice.

 

[Deeje]

Hi TK, I have been reading your thread here and am interested as to the reasons you decided, against your family tradition to 'convert' (not the right word?) to this faith? I must admit it is new to me too, I have never heard of it before. How did you come to hear of it? You are very young to be making such a courageous stand in spite of your family's opposition. But each must do what their heart tells them.

I so identify with your sentiments about going to church. I was bored out of my brains and never learned a thing. Meaningless ritual was not what Christ taught. I left the church years ago but I never stopped being a Christian. I can see why you might have thrown out the churches but I am confused about why you threw out Christ as Messiah. Isn't that a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

If Christ was to come to earth again tomorrow, he would not (IMO) attach himself to any of those fragmented and bickering mainstream churches who have the audacity to call themselves Christians whilst their beliefs are borrowed largely from paganism.

I can understand you wanting to go back to basics; Christ, after all was a Jew who was raised by Jewish parents according to Jewish Law. The corruption of Christianity happened very early in the piece, and the churches of today are merely a reflection of the apostasy that was foretold by Jesus himself and the Apostles (who were all Jewish)

Muslims still have belief in Christ as a prophet, but not as the Messiah. Is that what you believe also?

I have learned something new today.....and that is a good thing.

I look forward to talking with you some more.

Cheers, Deeje

 

[NoahideHiker]

Hi TK, I have been reading your thread here and am interested as to the reasons you decided, against your family tradition to 'convert' (not the right word?) to this faith? I must admit it is new to me too, I have never heard of it before. How did you come to hear of it? You are very young to be making such a courageous stand in spite of your family's opposition. But each must do what their heart tells them.

I so identify with your sentiments about going to church. I was bored out of my brains and never learned a thing. Meaningless ritual was not what Christ taught. I left the church years ago but I never stopped being a Christian. I can see why you might have thrown out the churches but I am confused about why you threw out Christ as Messiah. Isn't that a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

If Christ was to come to earth again tomorrow, he would not (IMO) attach himself to any of those fragmented and bickering mainstream churches who have the audacity to call themselves Christians whilst their beliefs are borrowed largely from paganism.

I can understand you wanting to go back to basics; Christ, after all was a Jew who was raised by Jewish parents according to Jewish Law. The corruption of Christianity happened very early in the piece, and the churches of today are merely a reflection of the apostasy that was foretold by Jesus himself and the Apostles (who were all Jewish)

Muslims still have belief in Christ as a prophet, but not as the Messiah. Is that what you believe also?

I have learned something new today.....and that is a good thing.

I look forward to talking with you some more.

Cheers, Deeje

I don't mean to answer for TK but for myself it is a matter of learning about Judaism FROM Jews. What christianity teaches about Judaism is NOT what Judaism is. I learned a few very important things from Judaism and the Jews. Amung them is:

*What is a "messiah" according to Judaism?

*Who is a "messiah" according to Judaism?

*Who is THE messiah according to Judaism?

*What will this last messiah do?

*What will the world be like when he comes and does these things According to Judaism?

*Have these things happened yet according to Judaism?

*What role does this last messiah play concerning salvation according to Judaism?

*What kind of requirements are expected of me concerning this messiah according to Judaism?

Then I compared this to what christianity has to say about each one of these questions and it becomes clear that the one is not merely an extension or continuation of the other but a religion seperate from the other. Which is fine. I have no problems with 99.9% of christians. Go, be the best christian you can be. May Hashem bless you and keep you! :yes:

The only time my fangs come out is when christians go after the Jews for conversion. This is a strict no-no. We Gentiles are free to do as we like but the Jews are to remain Jews within Judaism and the law.

 

[TheKnight]

Hi TK, I have been reading your thread here and am interested as to the reasons you decided, against your family tradition to 'convert' (not the right word?) to this faith? I must admit it is new to me too, I have never heard of it before. How did you come to hear of it? You are very young to be making such a courageous stand in spite of your family's opposition. But each must do what their heart tells them.

I left Christianity because I began to study the Messianic prophesies and I saw that Jesus didn't fulfill them. That's the simplest reason.

Other lesser reasons are certain theological issues I had with Christianity. Particularly with the ideas of hell and the obsession with blood sacrifice.

Most of my family (and indeed most Christians that I have met) only believe in Christianity because it's what they were raised to believe. They were taught that it was true, and though they might have strayed a bit, they end up returning to the indoctrination of their youth.

I, as any Christian should also believe, that the Jews had the truth before Jesus came. If they had the truth, why would they not follow Jesus after he came? Because the Devil blinded them? I think it's much more of a risk to believe that a fictional character that is virtually non-existent in the OT blinded God's chosen people then to believe that God's chosen people never got it wrong. In essence, outside of the prophesies, the main reason I will not believe in Jesus is the fact that the Jews are a living testimony to the fact that he isn't. They are a living testimony to the truth of the Torah, and the truth of the Jewish scriptures. That's what it boiled down to.

I can understand you wanting to go back to basics; Christ, after all was a Jew who was raised by Jewish parents according to Jewish Law. The corruption of Christianity happened very early in the piece, and the churches of today are merely a reflection of the apostasy that was foretold by Jesus himself and the Apostles (who were all Jewish)

I did want to go back to the basics. I went back to the basics and learned that Christianity strays far from the basics. Not just mainstream Christianity, but New Testament Christianity.

Muslims still have belief in Christ as a prophet, but not as the Messiah. Is that what you believe also?

I believe that Jesus didn't exist. If he did, his existence is irrelevant to me.

 

[Deeje]

Hey TK, just by way of a reply as to whether Jesus existed....Historian Will Durant made this statement: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

How could a person who never lived have affected human history so remarkably? The reference work 'The Historians History of the World' stated: “The historical result of [Jesus’] activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognised by the chief civilisations of the world, dates from his birth.”
Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote: “The name [Christian] is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.” Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ. In addition, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James, whom he identified as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”

The New Encyclopedia Britannica concludes: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the existence of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”
The Encyclopedia Britannica stated: “Many a modern student has become so preoccupied with conflicting theories about Jesus and the Gospels that he has neglected to study these basic sources by themselves.”

I am always saddened by the fact that people can be turned off Christianity by the ungodly beliefs and despicable activities of 'the church' down through the ages. 'Churchianity' is not Christianity.

When one reads the history of the torture of Jewish people by the so called Christian church during the middle ages, it is little wonder that Jews despise Christians. It is nauseating to read of such human depravity. And as the seemingly endless pages of horror upon horror unfold the mind reels under the impact of such inhuman fiendishness.

If those so-called “Christians” represented Jesus, who can blame Jews for despising the name? If their efforts to convert Jews were proper missionary activity, can you condemn the Jews for detesting the term 'missionary'? Centuries of persecution and torture and death have rolled over the Jews since Jesus’ day, and these things have been done to Jews in the name of Jesus and under the guise of missionary activity. That is why individual Jews accepted him more readily then than they do now. A history of ungodly activity has ruined the name "Christian" in the eyes of many Jews as well as those of other faiths, and rightly so. It is indefensible!

The Jewish people have been shamefully persecuted and misrepresented. And the most misrepresented Jew of them all is Jesus! He has been grossly misrepresented by the very ones claiming to serve him, to speak for him, but who instead are by their activity identified as the offspring of Satan. (Matt. 7:20; John 8:44) How could any intelligent person read just one page of Jesus’ words recorded in any one of the Gospels and still think the religious murderers of the Middle Ages represented Christ Jesus?

I hope I understand your sentiments TK.
But if Christ is not your Messiah and this one is still to come....time will tell. But if Christ truly was the Messiah, and you have been misled by the corruption of Christianity, then you have been done out of a lot.

May I ask what purpose is served by the coming of your Messiah, if Christ was not the one? It appears as if you gentile 'Jews' have a distinct advantage over the natural born ones. Those who adopted the Jewish faith in Bible times, were considered Jewish in their every day activities. They had to live by Jewish law and adopt a Jewish way of life. The Mosaic Law made specific provisions for a person of non-Israelite origin dwelling in Israel. Such an “alien resident” could become a full worshiper of Yahweh, being circumcised, (if a male,) in acknowledgment of his acceptance of true worship. (Ex 12:48, 49) A proselyte was responsible to obey all of the Law, and he was to be treated by natural Jews as a brother. (Le 19:33, 34; 24:22)

May I ask why you do not believe that Christ was the Messiah?
In fulfillment of OT prophecies the Jews of Jesus' day expected a Messiah who would set up a victorious earthly kingdom that would remain forever. But they overlooked one vital point: the Messiah was foretold to come twice, once as a sacrifice to die for obedient men, and then as a reigning king over an everlasting government. In their anxiousness to be delivered from Rome and be politically exalted immediately, they overlooked the necessity of the first presence and had eyes only for the glorious second presence. They looked for Messiah to come in the clouds of heaven and set up an everlasting earthly government. Instead he came riding on the foal of an *** recommending submission to the Roman yoke!
At his first coming Jesus fulfilled Zechariah 9:9, and he fulfilled Isaiah chapter 53 about dying a sacrificial death, despised and hated and classed with sinful transgressors.

Have I even touched on your reasoning about the Christ TK? I want to understand your feelings by acknowledging what has gone on in the past....because these things were bound to affect the future.

Cheers, Deeje

 

[Deeje]

I learned a few very important things from Judaism and the Jews. Among them is:

*What is a "messiah" according to Judaism?

*Who is a "messiah" according to Judaism?

*Who is THE messiah according to Judaism?

*What will this last messiah do?

*What will the world be like when he comes and does these things According to Judaism?

*Have these things happened yet according to Judaism?

*What role does this last messiah play concerning salvation according to Judaism?

*What kind of requirements are expected of me concerning this messiah according to Judaism?

May I get you to answer these questions you posed NH? I am always interested to learn something new.

Cheers, Deeje

 

[NoahideHiker]

I can nutshell it for you but it also requires study by the individual which is a part of your own studies and journeys. I will not argue with you about what Judaism thinks of jesus or what I think of jesus. I will only discuss what Judaism says about Jewish matters. Who jesus is or isn't is for christians to discuss. I do not define myself by what I am not or what I do not believ in but what I am and what I believe.

*What is a "messiah" according to Judaism?

Someone who is "anointed".

*Who is a "messiah" according to Judaism?

Many people were messiahs. Even one evil priest was considered a messiah. David, Moses, Avraham, the prophets, all messiahs.

*Who is THE messiah according to Judaism?

He is a human who shall rise up as a great leader in the same manner Moses was. He will be married and have children. He will be from the physical blood line of David. He will be Torah observant. He will be a prophet. In short he will fulfill every single last prophecy concerning the Messiah. If someone comes and they leave but a single prophecy undone, they are not the Messiah.

*What will this last messiah do?

He will rebuild the Temple. He will gather all the Jews back to Israel. He will usher in a period of absolute peace on earth. this period will also know universal knowledge of G-d.

*What will the world be like when he comes and does these things According to Judaism?

See above.

*Have these things happened yet according to Judaism?

No. None of them has.

*What role does this last messiah play concerning salvation according to Judaism?

He will bring salvation in the form of universal knowledge of G-d but if we look at the Jewish scriptures there is not one single verse or scrap of text that places such conditions that one must worship the Messiah, one must follow the Messiah or even believe in the Messiah in order to gain salvation. If there is I have yet to find it or be shown and such a spiritual lynch pin as that would be painted in big bold letters from one end of the Torah to the other. What IS bold and obvious from one end of Torah to the other is turning to Hashem, repentence, and following Torah in order to perfect our souls and better the world.

*What kind of requirements are expected of me concerning this messiah according to Judaism?

Very little. The coming Moshiach is simply a matter of fact. Only under two conditions will he come. 1) Israel, the Jews and the world are on the brink of destruction that the Moshiach is the only thing that will save it, or, 2) the Jews and the world have earned his coming.

 

[TheKnight]

But if Christ is not your Messiah and this one is still to come....time will tell. But if Christ truly was the Messiah, and you have been misled by the corruption of Christianity, then you have been done out of a lot.

I firmly believe that Jesus was not the Messiah.

May I ask what purpose is served by the coming of your Messiah, if Christ was not the one?

The Messiah will initiate the Messianic age. In essence, the Messiah will herald the time when the world will be complete.

It appears as if you gentile 'Jews' have a distinct advantage over the natural born ones. Those who adopted the Jewish faith in Bible times, were considered Jewish in their every day activities. They had to live by Jewish law and adopt a Jewish way of life. The Mosaic Law made specific provisions for a person of non-Israelite origin dwelling in Israel. Such an “alien resident” could become a full worshiper of Yahweh, being circumcised, (if a male,) in acknowledgment of his acceptance of true worship. (Ex 12:48, 49) A proselyte was responsible to obey all of the Law, and he was to be treated by natural Jews as a brother. (Le 19:33, 34; 24:22)

What you describe above is a convert. Noahides are gentiles who believe in Judaism but have not converted.

May I ask why you do not believe that Christ was the Messiah?

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophesies.

In fulfillment of OT prophecies the Jews of Jesus' day expected a Messiah who would set up a victorious earthly kingdom that would remain forever.

They did expect this. The Bible prophesies it.

But they overlooked one vital point: the Messiah was foretold to come twice, once as a sacrifice to die for obedient men, and then as a reigning king over an everlasting government.

Umm....and where is this coming twice prophesy? I'm pretty sure that Isaiah 42:4 says "He shall neither be cut down nor destroyed until he hath set right in the world."

In their anxiousness to be delivered from Rome and be politically exalted immediately, they overlooked the necessity of the first presence and had eyes only for the glorious second presence.

There was no reason to believe in two appearances from the Messiah.

Have I even touched on your reasoning about the Christ TK?

No, you haven't. My reasoning on who Jesus is is far beyond what any person can present. I have heard and seen all the arguments raised, I have studied these things. I was a devout Christian, and I searched for over a year asking various pastors, looking at various scriptures and cultural books, looking through history books about that time period, and even studying the Tanakh in Hebrew. My conclusion is that Jesus is not, and could not have been the Messiah. He didn't fulfill any major messianic prophesies.

 

[Deeje]

What you describe above is a convert. Noahides are gentiles who believe in Judaism but have not converted.

I am confused...isn't that a bit like living in sin? Acting like you're married but not actually committing to the other party? What is the point of believing what Jews believe if you don't convert? What does God think about that?

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophesies.

That is exactly what the majority of the first century Jews thought. He wasn't their political Messiah so he couldn't be the right one. What if the Kingdom wasn't earthly? What if the solutions he offered were spiritual? What if it was a heavenly kingdom but its rulership was over the earth at a future time?

No, you haven't. My reasoning on who Jesus is is far beyond what any person can present. I have heard and seen all the arguments raised, I have studied these things. I was a devout Christian, and I searched for over a year asking various pastors, looking at various scriptures and cultural books, looking through history books about that time period, and even studying the Tanakh in Hebrew. My conclusion is that Jesus is not, and could not have been the Messiah. He didn't fulfill any major messianic prophesies.

On the contrary, Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies ever written about him. Most of them were things over which he had no control.
How about these prophesies?.....

Gen. 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah

Ps. 132:11; From the family of
Isa. 9:7; David the son of Jesse
11:1, 10
Mic. 5:2 Born in Bethlehem

Isa. 7:14 Born of a virgin

Jer. 31:15 Babies killed after his birth

Hos. 11:1 Called out of Egypt

Mal. 3:1; 4:5; Way prepared beforehand by one like Elijah.

Dan. 9:25 Appeared as Messiah. Presented himself
at end of 69 “weeks” for baptism and was
anointed on schedule in 29 C.E.

Isa. 61:1, 2 Commissioned by God.

Isa. 9:1, 2 Ministry caused people in Naphtali
and Zebulun to see a great light.

Ps. 78:2 Spoke with illustrations

Isa. 53:4 Carried our sicknesses

Ps. 69:9 Zealous for Yahweh’s house

Isa. 53:1 Not believed in.

Zech. 9:9; Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an donkey, hailed as king and
Ps. 118:26 the one coming in Yahweh’s name

Isa. 28:16; Rejected, but becomes chief cornerstone
53:3;
Ps. 69:8; 118:22, 23

Isa. 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of stumbling

Ps. 41:9; 109:8 One apostle unfaithful; betrays him

Zech. 11:12 Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver

Zech. 13:7 Disciples scatter

Ps. 2:1, 2 Roman powers and leaders of Israel
act together against anointed of Yahweh

Isa. 53:8 Tried and condemned

Ps. 27:12 Use of false witnesses

Isa. 53:7 Silent before accusers

Ps. 69:4 Hated without cause

Isa. 50:6; Struck, spit on
Mic. 5:1
Ps. 22:16, Impaled

Ps. 22:18 Lots cast for garments

Isa. 53:12 Numbered with sinners

Ps. 22:7, 8 Reviled while on his torture stake

Ps. 69:21 Given vinegar and gall

Ps. 22:1 Forsaken by God to enemies

Ps. 34:20; No bones broken
Ex. 12:46
Isa. 53:5; Pierced
Zech. 12:10

Isa. 53:5, 8, Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins
11, 12 and open way to righteous standing with God

Isa. 53:9 Buried with the rich

Jonah 1:17; In grave for parts of three days, then resurrected
2:10
Ps. 16:8-11 Raised before corruption of his body.

These were all fulfilled in Jesus. How can you say he did not fulfill prophesy? The 'major' ones of which you speak are yet future. We are living in the time of the end; the one spoken of by Daniel. All of Daniel's prophesies apply to our time. Nebuchadnezzar's dream image with the head of gold and other body parts of differing metals in descending order are the march of world powers beginning with Babylon and on to our own time. We are living in the time of the feet. (Daniel 2:31-35) A time when God will act to destroy his enemies and restore his rulership over the earth. (Daniel 2:44)

What if the Messiah has come and you missed him? All of those prophesies fulfilled in one man....all of the miracles he performed (even the Pharisees acknowledged them. Matthew 12:38, 39) the wisdom in the things he taught, his impact on the world. Surely this could not be the work of a fraud. I fear you have missed the some very important facts and stumbled over some corrupt teachings, from both Jewish and apostate Christian teachings. But if you have convinced yourself there is little else I can say.

The old saying applies...."a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". I hope you will at least give these things some thought.

Cheers,
Deeje

 

[Deeje]

Thanks for the nutshell NH. May I ask why you cannot write God? Is there a problem with that? I am curious as I see others do this and I would like to ask why?

 

[NoahideHiker]

Thanks for the nutshell NH. May I ask why you cannot write God? Is there a problem with that? I am curious as I see others do this and I would like to ask why?

It is a simple respect. We never write the name of or representation of G-d's name anywhere it can be destroyed or in this case deleted.

 

[NoahideHiker]

I am confused...isn't that a bit like living in sin? Acting like you're married but not actually committing to the other party? What is the point of believing what Jews believe if you don't convert? What does God think about that?



That is exactly what the majority of the first century Jews thought. He wasn't their political Messiah so he couldn't be the right one. What if the Kingdom wasn't earthly? What if the solutions he offered were spiritual? What if it was a heavenly kingdom but its rulership was over the earth at a future time?



On the contrary, Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies ever written about him. Most of them were things over which he had no control.
How about these prophesies?.....

Gen. 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah

Ps. 132:11; From the family of
Isa. 9:7; David the son of Jesse
11:1, 10
Mic. 5:2 Born in Bethlehem

Isa. 7:14 Born of a virgin

Jer. 31:15 Babies killed after his birth

Hos. 11:1 Called out of Egypt

Mal. 3:1; 4:5; Way prepared beforehand by one like Elijah.

Dan. 9:25 Appeared as Messiah. Presented himself
at end of 69 “weeks” for baptism and was
anointed on schedule in 29 C.E.

Isa. 61:1, 2 Commissioned by God.

Isa. 9:1, 2 Ministry caused people in Naphtali
and Zebulun to see a great light.

Ps. 78:2 Spoke with illustrations

Isa. 53:4 Carried our sicknesses

Ps. 69:9 Zealous for Yahweh’s house

Isa. 53:1 Not believed in.

Zech. 9:9; Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an donkey, hailed as king and
Ps. 118:26 the one coming in Yahweh’s name

Isa. 28:16; Rejected, but becomes chief cornerstone
53:3;
Ps. 69:8; 118:22, 23

Isa. 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of stumbling

Ps. 41:9; 109:8 One apostle unfaithful; betrays him

Zech. 11:12 Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver

Zech. 13:7 Disciples scatter

Ps. 2:1, 2 Roman powers and leaders of Israel
act together against anointed of Yahweh

Isa. 53:8 Tried and condemned

Ps. 27:12 Use of false witnesses

Isa. 53:7 Silent before accusers

Ps. 69:4 Hated without cause

Isa. 50:6; Struck, spit on
Mic. 5:1
Ps. 22:16, Impaled

Ps. 22:18 Lots cast for garments

Isa. 53:12 Numbered with sinners

Ps. 22:7, 8 Reviled while on his torture stake

Ps. 69:21 Given vinegar and gall

Ps. 22:1 Forsaken by God to enemies

Ps. 34:20; No bones broken
Ex. 12:46
Isa. 53:5; Pierced
Zech. 12:10

Isa. 53:5, 8, Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins
11, 12 and open way to righteous standing with God

Isa. 53:9 Buried with the rich

Jonah 1:17; In grave for parts of three days, then resurrected
2:10
Ps. 16:8-11 Raised before corruption of his body.

These were all fulfilled in Jesus. How can you say he did not fulfill prophesy? The 'major' ones of which you speak are yet future. We are living in the time of the end; the one spoken of by Daniel. All of Daniel's prophesies apply to our time. Nebuchadnezzar's dream image with the head of gold and other body parts of differing metals in descending order are the march of world powers beginning with Babylon and on to our own time. We are living in the time of the feet. (Daniel 2:31-35) A time when God will act to destroy his enemies and restore his rulership over the earth. (Daniel 2:44)

What if the Messiah has come and you missed him? All of those prophesies fulfilled in one man....all of the miracles he performed (even the Pharisees acknowledged them. Matthew 12:38, 39) the wisdom in the things he taught, his impact on the world. Surely this could not be the work of a fraud. I fear you have missed the some very important facts and stumbled over some corrupt teachings, from both Jewish and apostate Christian teachings. But if you have convinced yourself there is little else I can say.

The old saying applies...."a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". I hope you will at least give these things some thought.

Cheers,
Deeje

Having been through hundreds of these debates myself I won't address anything directly but I will make an offer. I will go so far as to tell you that one place the christian view of the Moshiach fails is in what they consider to be messianic verses (Isaiah 7:14 is the one that personaly drives me crazy). When reading these verses that christianity claims to be messianic we have to look at the over-arching theme and aks ourselves, "Does this fit into Jewish thought and the Torah?". If it doesn't, then it's not a true perspective. Having done it myself, I know how hard it can be to empty my mind and learn about Judaism from the Jewish viewpoint and not the christian view point. But this is whatmust be done if you truely want to know about Judaism, or any other religion for that matter. If you were studying about Islam would you go ask christians about Islam? Of course not. You would go ask Muslims about Islam.

And in the end what we think of Judaism is irrelevant because we are not members of that religion. And weather you believe what I say is irrelevant as well. Why? Because you are a christian. You saw a need for self improvement in yourself and you sought G-d and His foregiveness and mercy. You improved yourself and sought to be a better person. IMHO you don't have to change. You are fine as a good christian. Be the best christian you can be and keep studying and growing. Because you see in all of the Jewish Tanach where salvation and religion are concerned nowhere, and I mean NOWHERE does it state that there is only one way to Hashem and salvation. Yes, the Jews are bound to Judaism but the rest of humanity is bound to no one religion. think about it; if there were to be one single true religion, and that religion was the single way to Hashem and salvation, it would be written in huge letters all over the Torah and Tanach, yes? But it is not. Nowhere is it written that one day their would be one true path and religion.

Here's a link to Chabad's online Tanach. You can go through and look up all your scriptural references there and see some of the differences between the Jewish interpretation and the christian one. Check the box near the top that turns on Rashi's commentary also. Enjoy!

The Complete Tanach with Rashi - Classic Texts - Torah - Bible