You're a WHAT!?!

[Zardoz]

I would say yes, particularly Muslims but most Christians too. Actually, If one takes the story of Noah at face value, everyone is a Noachide! Just some may follow the 7 laws better than others.

JMHO, old saying: two Jews, three opinions.

 

[Breathe]

I would say yes, particularly Muslims but most Christians too. Actually, If one takes the story of Noah at face value, everyone is a Noachide! Just some may follow the 7 laws better than others.

Curious, what about Sikhs, do you think they appear as Noahides?

 

[TheKnight]

I hope it's ok that I'm bringing back an old thread and that you are still around!

How did you initially come about Noahidism? What sources did you turn to in order to learn more? Have you studied Hebrew?

I initially came about it through the work of Rabbi Tovia Singer. He's an anti-missionary lecturer and his focus is on bringing Jews, who have converted to Christianity, back to Judaism.

I've been learning from Chabad Rabbis and various Rabbis online. I live in New York for the time being so I've intensified my studies now that I have more options available.

I don't know if people are still posting on this thread, but I'll ask anyway. I did some study on the Noahide faith a few years back, and I did have one question. I guess it would depend on the Jewish group, but are Christians and Muslims seen as Noahides? I heard that Reform Jews accept them as Noahides, but other groups, particularly the Orthodox, do not.

All non-Jews are considered Noahides.

My opinion of Christians is that while their monotheism is debateable, the fact that they consider their idea of God to be a monotheistic one (IE they say that God is one God even though they might still believe in the trinity) I would say that at the most basic level they are Noahides.

A large problem is that they worship and consider Jesus, a human being, to be god. That isn't acceptable whatsoever based on the laws of idolatry and by that they would simply be Noahides who aren't entirely observant.

Usually though, I will encourage Christians to grow deeper in their faith and will even conduct Bible studies with Christians on the New Testament.

Muslims are considered observant Noahides who hold beliefs entirely compatible with the Noahide laws.

Curious, what about Sikhs, do you think they appear as Noahides?

I know a Rabbi who has a PhD in Comparitive Religion Studies who told me that he sees the Sikhs as Monotheists and thus as fine Noahides.

Technically every human being is a Noahide (even the Jews) but there are varying levels of observance. As far as I know, Sikhs are fine. Although my understanding of Sikhism isn't what I thought it was.

 

[Breathe]

Although my understanding of Sikhism isn't what I thought it was.

Hehe, no worries. Most people's understanding of Sikhism isn't that great, from my personal experience. It's rare to find people who understand Sikhism in much depth.

 

[sunsplash]

I initially came about it through the work of Rabbi Tovia Singer. He's an anti-missionary lecturer and his focus is on bringing Jews, who have converted to Christianity, back to Judaism.

I've been learning from Chabad Rabbis and various Rabbis online. I live in New York for the time being so I've intensified my studies now that I have more options available.



All non-Jews are considered Noahides.

My opinion of Christians is that while their monotheism is debateable, the fact that they consider their idea of God to be a monotheistic one (IE they say that God is one God even though they might still believe in the trinity) I would say that at the most basic level they are Noahides.

A large problem is that they worship and consider Jesus, a human being, to be god. That isn't acceptable whatsoever based on the laws of idolatry and by that they would simply be Noahides who aren't entirely observant.

Usually though, I will encourage Christians to grow deeper in their faith and will even conduct Bible studies with Christians on the New Testament.

Muslims are considered observant Noahides who hold beliefs entirely compatible with the Noahide laws.



I know a Rabbi who has a PhD in Comparitive Religion Studies who told me that he sees the Sikhs as Monotheists and thus as fine Noahides.

Technically every human being is a Noahide (even the Jews) but there are varying levels of observance. As far as I know, Sikhs are fine. Although my understanding of Sikhism isn't what I thought it was.

How does your religion work within your Christian family? Do you celebrate holidays with them or hold your own Jewish celebrations or a varying sort?

How have you studied Hebrew?

Are there Noahide communities available near you or are you limited to the internet?

How does conversion differ from the one to Judaism, or is there no official conversion except a declaration of faith, since all non-Jews are said to be Noahide and Noahide isn't an organized religion per se?

 

[TheKnight]

How does your religion work within your Christian family? Do you celebrate holidays with them or hold your own Jewish celebrations or a varying sort?

I am not a Christian. My family is still Christian. They celebrate their holidays, I celebrate mine. I don't live with them anymore so it isn't really that much of a problem. Besides, our family had different ways of celebrating holidays anyways.

How have you studied Hebrew?

I have books from which I've taught myself. Also, I'll read articles or what not in Hebrew and when I come across a word I don't know I look it up.

Also, I try to talk to people who speak it to get their opinions on certain words, pronunciations, etc. For instance I, like Sefardi pronunciation.

Are there Noahide communities available near you or are you limited to the internet?

I only know of an actual Noahide societies in Israel and in Oklahoma. Either way it isn't relevant because I like to think of any community as a Noahide community. So observance isn't that great, by living there, embracing the community I am in, and getting to know and understand the people I can maybe, God willing, influence them to become more observant. If not, then so be it.

I've never been much for organized religious communities. I see religion as a personal affair and community as a separate affair that religion should influence but not center around.

How does conversion differ from the one to Judaism, or is there no official conversion except a declaration of faith, since all non-Jews are said to be Noahide and Noahide isn't an organized religion per se?

Declaration of Faith isn't even necessary. There is no conversion. If you are born to a woman who is not a Jew, you are a Noahide and are bound by the commandments. Those who are observant are those who recognize that and live in accordance with it.

It is, currently, very deformalized and I would hope it'd stay that way.


Also, "Noahidism" is not separate from Judaism. It is taught by the same Jewish sages that teach the Torah to the Jews. To be an observant Noahide (from the position of the Rambam--whom I tend to agree with) one must believe in Judaism.

 

[sunsplash]

Ok, I'm confused. And I'm not trying to stir the pot so please don't take this the wrong way - I just need clarification.

I am Christian. My family is not. They celebrate their holidays, I celebrate mine. I don't live with them anymore so it isn't really that much of a problem. Besides, our family had different ways of celebrating holidays anyways.

But on page 1 you said:

(BTW I havent always believe in Judaism, I used to be a Christian(for the first 15 years of my life) and I knew and still know a lot about Christianity.

and though you are now of age and moved out, at the time:

I live with my parents and they are still Christians. In other words, my parents won't let me convert so long as I live with them...Plus, I'm not 18 yet and I would need their consent.

and from page 2

I left Christianity because I began to study the Messianic prophesies and I saw that Jesus didn't fulfill them. That's the simplest reason.

Most of my family (and indeed most Christians that I have met) only believe in Christianity because it's what they were raised to believe. They were taught that it was true, and though they might have strayed a bit, they end up returning to the indoctrination of their youth.

I believe that Jesus didn't exist. If he did, his existence is irrelevant to me.

You left Christianity and have since gone back then and your family has left Christianity since the start of this thread? So does that make you a Torah observant Christian now? Obviously Christians are Noahides so I don't see a problem at all - I'm just really confused on your journey, dropping Jesus and then believing again, lol.

My family is the same way, Christian because they don't know any better other than what they were taught to believe.

 

[TheKnight]

Ok, I'm confused. And I'm not trying to stir the pot so please don't take this the wrong way - I just need clarification.



But on page 1 you said:



and though you are now of age and moved out, at the time:



and from page 2




You left Christianity and have since gone back then and your family has left Christianity since the start of this thread? So does that make you a Torah observant Christian now? Obviously Christians are Noahides so I don't see a problem at all - I'm just really confused on your journey, dropping Jesus and then believing again, lol.

My family is the same way, Christian because they don't know any better other than what they were taught to believe.

Ah! I am totally sorry. That was a typo. I am not a Christian and my family still is.

I lived with them at the time of the making of this thread, and currently do not.


When I lived with them, they celebrated Christian holidays and I, in my own way, celebrated Jewish ones.


My apologies. Normally I read through my posts more carefully.

 

[sunsplash]

Ah! I am totally sorry. That was a typo. I am not a Christian and my family still is.

I lived with them at the time of the making of this thread, and currently do not.


When I lived with them, they celebrated Christian holidays and I, in my own way, celebrated Jewish ones.


My apologies. Normally I read through my posts more carefully.

No problem, lol - my mind was whirling for a minute trying to figure out how you all switched so much!

It's my understanding that you aren't supposed to celebrate holidays or Shabbat in the identical ways as a Jewish person would, so what changes do you make when you celebrate in your own way? Do you "do the family thing" with your Christian family out of tradition still even though they aren't your beliefs? Do they attempt any Jewish celebrations out of respect for your beliefs at the same time?

Thanks for the references btw - I'm going to look further into each.

 

[J2hapydna]

... Obviously Christians are Noahides so I don't see a problem at all - ...

I was under the impression that Christians are not considered Noachide because of the Trinity thing, just JWs and Unitarians were Noachide. Please, elaborate thanks,

 

[sunsplash]

I was under the impression that Christians are not considered Noachide because of the Trinity thing, just JWs and Unitarians were Noachide. Please, elaborate thanks,

Maybe from certain PoV's, but I think most if not all trinitarian Christians believe themselves to be monotheists, even if other Abrahamic's do not. Now whether or not that matters...


ETA-
And if you're a believer in The One G-d anyway, whether someone accepts or rejects that as truth shouldn't have an bearing on your view of them as being a child of G-d - which would encompass all of humanity in every religion and culture would it not?

 

[OneThatGotAway]

"And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to YAHWEH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof."

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." ---- Exodus 12:48-49, Holy Bible

"You shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] YAHWEH your God." ---- Leviticus 24:22, Holy Bible

I read that this is what was YAHWEH's purpose from the beginning for mankind.
And this currently the purpose of YAHWEH for mankind today.
And it is written that this will be the purpose of YAHWEH for the Sons of Aedam forevermore.

The problem with the world today is that they use differing weights so much that God punishes them generation after generation. For it is written:

"You shall not have in thy bag different weights, a great and a small." ---- Deuteronomy 25:13, Holy Bible

"A just weight and balance [are] YAHWEH's: all the weights of the bag [are] his work." ---- Proverbs 16:11

"Different weights, [and] different measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to YAHWEH. ---- Proverbs 20:10

"Different weights [are] an abomination unto YAHWEH; and a false balance [is] not good." ---- Proverbs 20:23

"Shall I count [them] pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights?" ---- Micah 6:11

Men, it is different weights like these that greatly contributed to the destruction of Yerushalim and the God's Holy Temple around 70 A.D.

There will be: One law for the Sons of Aedam. Shalom.

 

[TheKnight]

It's my understanding that you aren't supposed to celebrate holidays or Shabbat in the identical ways as a Jewish person would, so what changes do you make when you celebrate in your own way? Do you "do the family thing" with your Christian family out of tradition still even though they aren't your beliefs? Do they attempt any Jewish celebrations out of respect for your beliefs at the same time?

A non-Jew is not allowed to observe Shabbat completely. However, I have not heard that a non-Jew is not allowed to observe the holidays. The thing is, we cannot make our own holidays. And if we do decide to observe the Jewish holidays (or any of the laws that are binding on Jews and yet not on us) then we must do so in accordance with halakha.

I live 3,000 miles away from my family, so no I do not celebrate any holidays with them. If I did live with them, I probably still wouldn't.

The only holiday we share, really, is Thanksgiving. It is permitted for Noahides to observe Thanksgiving and so sometimes I'll celebrate that holiday with them.

I was under the impression that Christians are not considered Noachide because of the Trinity thing, just JWs and Unitarians were Noachide. Please, elaborate thanks,

Everyone is a Noahide. The question that is discussed is whether or not Christians can be considered in violation of the law of idolatry or not.

The general consensus is that if Jesus is worshipped, and treated as a god, then the person is committing idolatry.

That doesn't necessarily mean we treat them any differently.

The requirements for the death penalty (which is the maximum punishment that can be administered for violating any Noahide commandment) are so stringent that we wouldn't even be able to execute them.

Ultimately the best response to a Christian is to educate them. Like I said, I hold Bible studies with Christians, I'm more than willing to discuss Christian theology with, etc etc. It helps if, at first, we can create a mutual understanding.

Obviously, for a lot of Christians, convincing them that Jesus was not god, and that to say so is idolatry is a difficult task. But it certainly isn't impossible. With education and productive discussion we can move forward in leaps and bounds.

There will be: One law for the Sons of Aedam. Shalom.

My friend, it is not enough to quote a selection of verses and make a decision. You must also consider rulings that have been made by Rabbi's of the past on such things. You must consider the tradition, which goes back to Sinai, that also speaks about such things.

The fact is, even within the 613 everyone has a role. Women have different laws than men, kohanim have different laws than bnei yisrael, bnei levi have different laws than bnei yisrael, slaves have different laws than free men, married people have different laws than single. There are different laws for different people because we are not all the same, we don't all live under the same circumstances, and we don't all come from the same backgrounds. For this reason, there are different laws.

 

[Renji]

I'm a Catholic. The essence (for me) of being a Catholic is not boasting that you are a "Christian". Just let them see that you're a Christian through your faith and actions, not merely through verbal acts. That 'marks' a genuine Cath. christian^^

 

[TheKnight]

I'm a Catholic. The essence (for me) of being a Catholic is not boasting that you are a "Christian". Just let them see that you're a Christian through your faith and actions, not merely through verbal acts. That 'marks' a genuine Cath. christian^^

I don't really understand the relevance of your statement.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hey, TheKnight - I just got to wondering about something: you've talked a fair bit about how various religions count as observing the Noahide laws. This implies to me that if you felt drawn to them, you could adopt one of them while still maintaining the commitment you've made.

Have you ever considered aligning yourself with any specific faith or tradition beyond the wide-reaching "observant Noahide"? For example, since you say that you could still be an observant Noahide while being a Muslim, would you ever consider becoming a Muslim... or any of the other faiths that you see as being aligned with the Noahide laws?

 

[Renji]

I don't really understand the relevance of your statement.

It's a figure of speech

 

[TheKnight]

Hey, TheKnight - I just got to wondering about something: you've talked a fair bit about how various religions count as observing the Noahide laws. This implies to me that if you felt drawn to them, you could adopt one of them while still maintaining the commitment you've made.

Have you ever considered aligning yourself with any specific faith or tradition beyond the wide-reaching "observant Noahide"? For example, since you say that you could still be an observant Noahide while being a Muslim, would you ever consider becoming a Muslim... or any of the other faiths that you see as being aligned with the Noahide laws?

The thing is, they are observant when it comes to their actions. In that sense they are fine religions. However, when it comes to beliefs, they are not all necessarily correct. I believe in Judaism because of the things it teaches about reality and the way we came to be. The nature of God etc. For those reasons I believe in Judaism.

The thing is, God isn't so concerned with belief as He is with action. Would He like people to believe a certain way? Perhaps, but it's more important that they behave a certain way. We can always try to influence beliefs later. But it's the behavior that makes the bigger difference.

So in terms of "acceptable" religions, they are acceptable in so much as it is OK for a non-Jew to follow those religions because their behaviors are in line with those of Judaism. However, the ideal would be that someone's actions would be in line and their beliefs would be in line as well.

I, personally, am drawn to the teachings of Judaism. I see them as truth. As such I could not ever see myself believing in a different worldview, even if the behavioral aspects were the same.

 

[J2hapydna]

Everyone is a Noahide. The question that is discussed is whether or not Christians can be considered in violation of the law of idolatry or not.

The general consensus is that if Jesus is worshipped, and treated as a god, then the person is committing idolatry.

I am trying to be consistent with how you defined and used the term:

I am a Noahide. What's that? Well, in essence, Noahides are people who believe in Judaism. They are people (non-Jews) who believe that God gave the Torah to the Jews at Sinai and that the Torah, being God's ultimate wisdom, contains the rules and regulations with which mankind can perfect this world.

Therefore, as you used the term everyone could not possibly be a Noachide. In addition, I doubt one has to believe anything about Jews or Judaism for Jews to consider someone a Noachide.

 

[kingsherald]

I have often come across people who, upon finding out about my religion will say something akin to "You're a WHAT!?!"

I am a Noahide. What's that? Well, in essence, Noahides are people who believe in Judaism. They are people (non-Jews) who believe that God gave the Torah to the Jews at Sinai and that the Torah, being God's ultimate wisdom, contains the rules and regulations with which mankind can perfect this world.

In our world, there is a vast amount of diversity. There are different races, different genders etc etc etc. So, the rules are different for each person depending on who they are. The Jews have 613 laws which apply to them, and Noahides have 7 princples (or 66 commandments) that apply to them. And then within those two groups you have divisions for certain positions and for gender.

The Seven Noahide principles are:
1. Belief in God
2. Respect for Gof
3. Value of human life
4. Vaue of the family structure
5. Value of the property of others
6. Value of all non-human life
7. The pursuit of justice.

In essence, if anyone does/abides by these things then they are considered a religiously observant Noahide.

If you have any questions concerning Noahides (or Othodox/Chassidic Judaism) please feel free to ask.

The Torah is not God's ultimate wisdom. The Torah, or the Law only brings death, because no one is able to keep its demands. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God's ultimate wisdom. The Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Jesus was born under the law, to fulfill the law on behalf of all He came to save.

We are born under the law. The law condemns us. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of God's people, who believe in Jesus. What the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God has done by sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (He being spotless, without sin) to condemn sin in the flesh. And so He came to reconcile sinners unto Himself by the shed blood of the Lamb. Jesus is the Holy Lamb of God, separate from sinners, undefiled, the Lord from heaven. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.