Zelensky joins Canadian Parliament’s ovation to 98-year-old veteran who fought with Nazis

[ImmortalFlame]

Care to comment on the pictures of neo-Nazi Ukrainian soldiers? Ukraine damages its own reputation. Don't attack someone for bringing it to light just because you disagree with their political views. That's just lazy. I can't believe you haven't heard of the Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. Good grief. Maybe you should actually go read about the people you are throwing your support behind and holding up as heroes.

Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment?

The regiment, which has been accused of neo-Nazi ties, has since been absorbed in the national army.

www.aljazeera.com

So you're just going to completely ignore the fact that you cited an obvious reactionary propagandist and pivot to a different topic? Cool.

Meanwhile, in reality, the Azov battalion number about 2,000 members, and were a voluntary army only incorporated into Ukraine's National Guard as a direct response to the Russian separatist annexation of the Donbas in 2014. (SOURCES: Azov Brigade - Wikipedia, How a Far-Right Battalion Became a Part of Ukraine’s National Guard, Azov Battalion - The Defenders of Mariupol)

I don't know about you, but if I was the leader of a Ukraine's military, and a bunch of extreme far-right people with guns and a serious dislike of Russians all said "Hey, could we help you deal with this Russian-funded separatist army that have illegally annexed territory in our country?", I would probably be willing to throw them at the problem, too. Seems like a win-win, to me.

The only issue I see with it is that people like you are willing to lie, manipulate and (often) ignore the truth of the situation in order to paint Ukraine as somehow deserving of being invaded. With one mouth you decry war and call out the villainy of the US and NATO apparently using Ukraine in a proxy war against Russia, shedding crocodile tears for the poor, poor people of Ukraine who are just being used as puppets; while with the other mouth you literally call Ukraine a Nazi state.

That's the problem with being a reactionary. No ideological consistency, no acknowledgement of reality. You'll do and say anything as long as it can marginally serve the purpose of justifying or excusing Russia invading their neighbour because... I dunno, why, really. Smug self-superiority and contrarianism? Pretensions of anti-imperialism that just so happen to end up advocating for actual imperialism? Being just a literal imperialist?

I just don't get it. Why climb a tree and tell a lie when you can stand on the ground and tell the truth?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Care to comment on the pictures of neo-Nazi Ukrainian soldiers? Ukraine damages its own reputation. Don't attack someone for bringing it to light just because you disagree with their political views. That's just lazy. I can't believe you haven't heard of the Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. Good grief. Maybe you should actually go read about the people you are throwing your support behind and holding up as heroes.

Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment?

The regiment, which has been accused of neo-Nazi ties, has since been absorbed in the national army.

www.aljazeera.com

I have indeed read about the Azov Battalion, and nowhere have I said anything about holding up Ukrainian forces as heroes. I just see Ukraine as a defender against an imperialist invasion.

The estimate concerning the number of members of the regiment is cited in the article you linked:

So what is the Azov regiment?​

Azov is a far-right all-volunteer infantry military unit whose members – estimated at 900 – are ultra-nationalists and accused of harbouring neo-Nazi and white supremacist ideology.

If 900 members is a sufficient number to justify an invasion, does the KKK, whose members far outnumber that, provide grounds for invading the US to "denazify" it? Many countries have neo-Nazi movements, but I doubt most people would support invading those countries on that basis.

Also, I'm not criticizing that person just because I disagree with her political views; it's because she has posted factually incorrect claims and demonized others based on those. When a belief is about something clearly measurable or observable and affects others' safety or lives, it often stops being a mere matter of personal opinion. The claims of 2020 "election fraud" have been refuted through investigations that have found no evidence of such, Alex Jones has lost in a trial about his damaging misinformation that harmed the families of school-shooting victims, and the Azov regiment is only a tiny portion of Ukraine's military.

To me, it's a matter of principle: I loathe imperialism and military aggression, and that applies to Ukraine as much as it does my own country. If my family, friends, and others I cared about were being threatened or murdered by invading forces, I would consider people who enabled or justified the invasion through misinformation to be complicit, whether intentionally or not. If they were well-intentioned and open to discussion but merely misinformed, that could be addressed through discussion, but that person's Twitter is abundant with vitriol and partisan propaganda that don't indicate she's well-intentioned or open to reasonable discussion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If 900 members is a sufficient number to justify an invasion, does the KKK, whose members far outnumber that, provide grounds for invading the US to "denazify" it? Many countries have neo-Nazi movements, but I doubt most people would support invading those countries on that basis.

If these KKK members were part of the military, brandishing KKK flags and adorning their uniforms with KKK symbols with impunity by the military, yes, we'd have a serious problem on our hands. Especially if they are stoking ethnic hatred against other peoples, like the ultranationalists in the Ukraine do against ethnic Russians. They glorify WWII Ukrainian Nazi collabators.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If these KKK members were part of the military, brandishing KKK flags and adorning their uniforms with KKK symbols with impunity by the military, yes, we'd have a serious problem on our hands. Especially if they are stoking ethnic hatred against other peoples, like the ultranationalists in the Ukraine do against ethnic Russians. They glorify WWII Ukrainian Nazi collabators.

Once again, your pretence is slipping. The Azov Battalion were only incorporated into the National Guard as a direct response to Russian-backed separatists invading the annexing the Donbas and their numbers are estimated to be between 900 and 2,500. That's hardly sufficient to start justifying allusions to Ukraine being a Nazi state, is it?

If America incorporated the KKK into it's National guard, that sure would be concerning - but that's because the US is literally the world's biggest military superpower with endless resources at its disposal and has no direct threat to its national sovereignty literally sitting at the border WAITING TO INVADE. Ukraine are in a slightly different position to the USA in that regard, and I think allowing a few hundred right-wing lunatics willing to volunteer to join your defensive guard is fairly reasonable expectation for a small, weak country currently at direct threat of total invasion by one of the world's leading nuclear superpowers.

Also, it's not THE Ukraine. It's Ukraine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Oh, and I'd still love a direct response to my initial question in the thread. It's directed at no one in particular:

Are you willing to state, without ambiguity or qualifiers, that you believe Zelenskyy knowingly and deliberately applauded this man, having already known that this man most likely served the Germans in world war 2?

 

[Estro Felino]

Oh, and I'd still love a direct response to my initial question in the thread. It's directed at no one in particular:

Are you willing to state, without ambiguity or qualifiers, that you believe Zelenskyy knowingly and deliberately applauded this man, having already known that this man most likely served the Germans in world war 2?

Poroshenko already did it, with Stepan Bandera...a Nazi.

Stepan Bandera, the Ukrainian anti-hero glorified following the Russian invasion

The Ukrainian ultranationalist who allied with Nazi Germany during WWII has experienced a resurgence in popularity because of his struggle against Russia and the Soviet Union.

www.lemonde.fr

 

[Subduction Zone]

In 2014 Anti-Russian Nationalism was asphyxiating, as this article shows. It grew bigger and bigger.

Ukrainian Students Sell 'Blood of Russian Children' Drinks at School Bake Sale

A group of schoolchildren in southeastern Ukraine has prompted an outcry after selling items with creative names such as "Blood of Russian Children" and "Tanks to Moscow" at a charity bake sale organized to raise funds for Ukrainian troops.

www.themoscowtimes.com

LOL! "The Moscow Times". Are you being serious?

 

[Estro Felino]

LOL! "The Moscow Times". Are you being serious?

I understand you. You don't consider Russian media reliable.
I don't consider Sorosian media reliable either...so we are even.

 

[lukethethird]

I understand you. You don't consider Russian media reliable.
I don't consider Sorosian media reliable either...so we are even.

The Moscow Times has no failed fact checks,

Moscow Times - Bias and Credibility

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Moscow Times has no failed fact checks,

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/moscow-times/

Your link doesn't work. And it is not through just fact checks alone that a source can fail.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understand you. You don't consider Russian media reliable.
I don't consider Sorosian media reliable either...so we are even.

Find a real source. One that is not terminally biased.

 

[lukethethird]

Your link doesn't work. And it is not through just fact checks alone that a source can fail.

the link works now, i fixed it

 

[Estro Felino]

Find a real source. One that is not terminally biased.

In Italian. Can you use google chrome translate?

 

[lukethethird]

Did Zelensky know? During WWII, Ukrainian nationalists saw the Nazis as liberators from Soviet oppression. How could he not have known?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If America incorporated the KKK into it's National guard, that sure would be concerning - but that's because the US is literally the world's biggest military superpower with endless resources at its disposal and has no direct threat to its national sovereignty literally sitting at the border WAITING TO INVADE.

I also keep in mind that if the US military could not manage a defense against an invasion, it would be militias--many of whom are neo-Nazis and KKK or the like--fighting and supporting efforts to stop the invasion.

Would I, an American, be proud of that? Nope. Would I still hope the world would look past that unfortunate fact and provide support for the horrors of being invaded by a superior force? Yup!

 

[Estro Felino]

Did Zelensky know? During WWII, Ukrainian nationalists saw the Nazis as liberators from Soviet oppression. How could he not have known?

They even made a movie
Everything is illuminated, 2004
It shows how many anti-Russian nationalists welcomed the Nazis, who exterminated the Jews.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Did Zelensky know? During WWII, Ukrainian nationalists saw the Nazis as liberators from Soviet oppression. How could he not have known?

That's not an answer to the question. Once again:

Are you willing to state, without ambiguity or qualifiers, that you believe Zelenskyy knowingly and deliberately applauded this man, having already known that this man most likely served the Germans in world war 2?

 

[lukethethird]

That's not an answer to the question. Once again:

Are you willing to state, without ambiguity or qualifiers, that you believe Zelenskyy knowingly and deliberately applauded this man, having already known that this man most likely served the Germans in world war 2?

I don't respond to people hysterically screaming at the top of their lungs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't respond to people hysterically screaming at the top of their lungs.

Right. Good excuse. So why did you ignore him when he asked you in a very polite tone?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Right. Good excuse. So why did you ignore him when he asked you in a very polite tone?

Heck, the tone is exactly the same, word for word, as when I asked it on page one. What luke's objecting to, apparently, is using a large font to ensure the question can't be avoided.

Apparently, Luke thinks using a large font is the same as "screaming at the top of your lungs". Must be extremely upsetting for him to read the headlines of newspapers.

"Dear Grayzone, please stop shouting at me."