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Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You forgot the most likely option: Nobody is hearing and answering prayer.



Atheists reject the idea of sin, It's a religious concept.



That's exactly how I approached Christianity - suspending disbelief for most of a decade to try this religion on and take it for a test drive to see if it would begin to make sense and its god become apparent.

Less than a decade later, I returned to atheism.



So, you claim that you were once of the mind that unsupported claims should not be accepted, but rather, require supporting evidence before being believed, but then gave that up for faith based belief instead?



Are you offering yourself as evidence of that?



Yeah. What does your religion have to offer besides promises that can't be validated and don't need to be kept? What does it have to offer a happy secular humanist?

Okay, it is certainly possible there is no God and no one hears my prayer, but it's hard for me to push aside prior answered prayers. There are a LOT of them.

So, I'm curious about your ten-year journey, because I believe there are religious people and true™ born again™ Christians™ who really have a relationship™ with Jesus Christ™ if you follow me.

I won't attack or question your journey if you understand I have a definition of Christian you think is an NTS.

PLEASE tell me about your journey.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, I meant like lying, infidelity, lack of commitment, etc.

Ahh good Christian values, Muslim values, Buddhist values, agnostic values, atheist values, human values. Just because Christianity has ear marked the values of humanity and claimed to break those values as a 'sin' means sin is a religious concept. Non religious people just consider them the right thing to do.

Also, I find that religious people tend to treat those values as somewhat flexible.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If you don't remember what you posted, why I should go backward through six posts?

But if you wish to goalpost shift to weights, you "seem to feel" (pun not intended) that if something goes on a scale it's "real", yet you never stated how you know you or me or anything is "real".

Still waiting!

My memory is fine but you just admitted you cannot provide a link to prove your claim, see my above post regarding honesty


Your projection about goalpost shifting is noted, you cannot stay on any subject on you are refuted
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Okay, it is certainly possible there is no God and no one hears my prayer, but it's hard for me to push aside prior answered prayers. There are a LOT of them.

So, I'm curious about your ten-year journey, because I believe there are religious people and true™ born again™ Christians™ who really have a relationship™ with Jesus Christ™ if you follow me.

I won't attack or question your journey if you understand I have a definition of Christian you think is an NTS.

PLEASE tell me about your journey.

Sure. Gladly.

I arrived at university too young and fell flat on my face due to lack of discipline. I saw my dreams of medical school fading away, and chose to drop out and, with my parents' permission, enlist in the army to bring some structure and discipline into my life. This was a good move, but being so far from home and in a world that was alien and very unpleasant to me only magnified my angst. It was in that state of mind that I turned to religion for the first time in my life - Christianity, Pentecostal style.

I was already into critical thinking, so this move required that I suspend disbelief and, as I described it to you earlier, test drive this new way of viewing reality.

It didn't make sense initially - and never really did - but I thought that if this god were real, being obedient to its commands would eventually cause me to see that it did make sense and that the god was present.

Amazingly, I did feel filled with the Spirit. I looked forward to church (went three times a week), and considered going into the ministry. The other members of the congregation also seemed spirit-filled - to have the victory as was often said. I married a girl in the congregation on faith alone. I really didn't know her too well, but one day, while sitting outdoors with her as the sun was setting and creating a crepuscular ray scene, I heard the spirit tell me to marry this girl. We were married by our pastor. That turned out to be ill-advised.

Eventually, my enlistment ended, and I returned to my home state to go back to school, older, wiser, more mature, and more disciplined, and did well.

We found a new congregation there, and it was dead. The Spirit was nowhere to be found among those people, so we tried another. And another. And another. There was no victory there, not in any of them.

I continued to pray, but my religious fervor was fading away, year after year. Eventually, I stopped going to these empty churches, and eventually I came to realize that I had stumbled onto a great church run by a gifted pastor on my first try. It was his gifted style of ministering the man was so full of life and joy that it was infectious - that created the blissful congregation and what I was calling the presence of the Spirit. It was him I was experiencing as the Spirit of God.

By this time, I could see that the promises made in the Bible weren't being kept. Faith couldn't move mountains. No matter how hard I prayed and studied scripture, there was no presence of the Lord to be felt.

I did get accepted into medical school, which took almost all of my time and attention for a few years, during which time my marriage began to suffer, leading eventually to divorce and a bitter ex-wife who poisoned our children toward me after moving them to another state. By this time, religion was pretty much gone from my life.

I met somebody else - a non-Christian - and have been happily married for 27 years living as an atheist and secular humanist.

Life has been good, and was never better than now. To me, that is evidence that I made the right choices. No more marrying by faith or deciding anything without applying reason to evidence. Fortunately, I never lost the ability to do that even after putting reason in storage for all those years and subordinating it to faith.

I'm frequently told that I must have gotten mad at God. I was never mad at God. I loved God for as long as I believed in him, and then was indifferent. I was not angry at the church, and have always been grateful for having had that experience.

I'm also told that my faith wasn't good enough, or that I didn't pray or believe well enough. All I can say is that if this god exists, it gave up on me first, after which I gave up on it.

Hope that gives you some insight.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
I was appropriate in my remark, since many, MANY times, the same posters have claimed that I lie when I give my personal testimony. It's called personal because it's meaningful to me.
I'm happy to answer your question. I try to have a rationalist mindset as well as be practical. I don't put energy toward investing in things I believe that remain unknown/theoretical. I know Jesus Christ, I would say, for multiple reasons. Some that come to mind:

*The Bible seems to be written by honest people
*Prayers are answered/tithing and giving is responded to
*My marriage and children are strong and well, holistically
*Despite thinking about it OFTEN, I can't come up with a single Bible law or precept that betters me or anyone if it is disobeyed
*The born agains I know have similar testimonies, and are more happy than others I know
*I've thought through other religions
Etc.

The problem with all Beliefs, Myths, Superstitions, or God(s), is that they simply never change. Little red riding hood will be the same story today, as it will be in the next 100 years. Basic religious knowledge can be finite and static, but its interpretations can be infinite. I think that your examples demonstrate a simple confirmation bias. I'm sure there are some exceptions within your reasons.

You may believe that you know that God exists, but other than your personal testimonials, there is no independent evidence that can objectively confirm any of your claims. Independent of any falsifiable evidence, every religious claim is true. Obedience, pious servitude, and a personal supreme father figure that watches over you even after you die, is a central theme of most religions. Think about it, why would we need religion if we could live forever? Religion is man's emotional compensation for his own mortality. Religion also placates man's own inflated sense of importance and convinced need for purpose. No other animal demonstrates this emotional need to compensate. No other animal has an evolved need to ponders his own mortality. From the first day we took our first breath, life was meant to explore and learn. Life was meant to experience growing up and developing our own uniqueness. Life was meant to accomplish our personal goals, prepare and build our nest, form casual and permanent relationships, experience the first day of parenthood and grandparenthood, and to finally enjoy periods of personal reflection. Life certainly was not meant to prepare for death.

No one can possibly KNOW that a God(s) exist, anymore than one can know what's in the mind of a God(s). Do you also know if God(s) has any human qualities or attributes at all? Is God Good or Evil? Malevolent or Benevolent? Male or Female? Wise or Dumb? Maybe it is the Devil that we are really praising. Just how do you objectively know? Anyway, you've made your point. You believe that because God(s) has made a positive difference in your life, you need to give God(s) the credit. This may avoid personal responsibility for making your own decisions. I take full responsibility for all my decisions and action. Especially in all stages in planning my life. Since we can't know for certain what is in the mind of man, how can we possibly know what is in the mind of a God(s)? Don
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I try.

Looking at it logically, if a god requires prayer from us, but doesn't tell us it exists, or which one
it is, they broad minded people seeking the true god would lack confidence in their choice.
But this wouldn't appear to be satisfying the god who requires worship of it, & not the false gods.

Makes sense to me, but I would say the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection gave some clear indications.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
To an extent, sure. But it could just as easily be argued that there is some truth and some falsity in all religion. For example, it could be true that Jesus isn't the literal son of God, but the bulk of the rest of Christianity could still be true, and it's also true that even if Jesus were the son of God, the bulk of Islam could also still be true. The question is how do we determine what is true and what is false?

That is a good question. What are your parameters for true/false determinants?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Ahh good Christian values, Muslim values, Buddhist values, agnostic values, atheist values, human values. Just because Christianity has ear marked the values of humanity and claimed to break those values as a 'sin' means sin is a religious concept. Non religious people just consider them the right thing to do.

Also, I find that religious people tend to treat those values as somewhat flexible.

Good point--so why would an atheist end a relationship, do you think?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
My memory is fine but you just admitted you cannot provide a link to prove your claim, see my above post regarding honesty


Your projection about goalpost shifting is noted, you cannot stay on any subject on you are refuted

So, you are adamant that you ignore your gut, your feelings, and that you believe ONLY in facts?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Sure. Gladly.

I arrived at university too young and fell flat on my face due to lack of discipline. I saw my dreams of medical school fading away, and chose to drop out and, with my parents' permission, enlist in the army to bring some structure and discipline into my life. This was a good move, but being so far from home and in a world that was alien and very unpleasant to me only magnified my angst. It was in that state of mind that I turned to religion for the first time in my life - Christianity, Pentecostal style.

I was already into critical thinking, so this move required that I suspend disbelief and, as I described it to you earlier, test drive this new way of viewing reality.

It didn't make sense initially - and never really did - but I thought that if this god were real, being obedient to its commands would eventually cause me to see that it did make sense and that the god was present.

Amazingly, I did feel filled with the Spirit. I looked forward to church (went three times a week), and considered going into the ministry. The other members of the congregation also seemed spirit-filled - to have the victory as was often said. I married a girl in the congregation on faith alone. I really didn't know her too well, but one day, while sitting outdoors with her as the sun was setting and creating a crepuscular ray scene, I heard the spirit tell me to marry this girl. We were married by our pastor. That turned out to be ill-advised.

Eventually, my enlistment ended, and I returned to my home state to go back to school, older, wiser, more mature, and more disciplined, and did well.

We found a new congregation there, and it was dead. The Spirit was nowhere to be found among those people, so we tried another. And another. And another. There was no victory there, not in any of them.

I continued to pray, but my religious fervor was fading away, year after year. Eventually, I stopped going to these empty churches, and eventually I came to realize that I had stumbled onto a great church run by a gifted pastor on my first try. It was his gifted style of ministering the man was so full of life and joy that it was infectious - that created the blissful congregation and what I was calling the presence of the Spirit. It was him I was experiencing as the Spirit of God.

By this time, I could see that the promises made in the Bible weren't being kept. Faith couldn't move mountains. No matter how hard I prayed and studied scripture, there was no presence of the Lord to be felt.

I did get accepted into medical school, which took almost all of my time and attention for a few years, during which time my marriage began to suffer, leading eventually to divorce and a bitter ex-wife who poisoned our children toward me after moving them to another state. By this time, religion was pretty much gone from my life.

I met somebody else - a non-Christian - and have been happily married for 27 years living as an atheist and secular humanist.

Life has been good, and was never better than now. To me, that is evidence that I made the right choices. No more marrying by faith or deciding anything without applying reason to evidence. Fortunately, I never lost the ability to do that even after putting reason in storage for all those years and subordinating it to faith.

I'm frequently told that I must have gotten mad at God. I was never mad at God. I loved God for as long as I believed in him, and then was indifferent. I was not angry at the church, and have always been grateful for having had that experience.

I'm also told that my faith wasn't good enough, or that I didn't pray or believe well enough. All I can say is that if this god exists, it gave up on me first, after which I gave up on it.

Hope that gives you some insight.

Okay, it was very kind of you to give me such honest and thorough details since we've been at odds in the past, even recently.

What have other people said about this testimony? I have my own ideas, but ...
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The problem with all Beliefs, Myths, Superstitions, or God(s), is that they simply never change.
Don


Really. So Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are
identical; the 30-40 thousand protestant sects are
indistinguishable; the Book of Mormon version of
Jesus differs not from the NT.

The teachings of the Abrahamic days didnt divide into Islam and Judaism and Judaism didnt subdivide into
Christianity, it is all identical.

That sure simplifies things. Good to know.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The problem with all Beliefs, Myths, Superstitions, or God(s), is that they simply never change. Little red riding hood will be the same story today, as it will be in the next 100 years. Basic religious knowledge can be finite and static, but its interpretations can be infinite. I think that your examples demonstrate a simple confirmation bias. I'm sure there are some exceptions within your reasons.

You may believe that you know that God exists, but other than your personal testimonials, there is no independent evidence that can objectively confirm any of your claims. Independent of any falsifiable evidence, every religious claim is true. Obedience, pious servitude, and a personal supreme father figure that watches over you even after you die, is a central theme of most religions. Think about it, why would we need religion if we could live forever? Religion is man's emotional compensation for his own mortality. Religion also placates man's own inflated sense of importance and convinced need for purpose. No other animal demonstrates this emotional need to compensate. No other animal has an evolved need to ponders his own mortality. From the first day we took our first breath, life was meant to explore and learn. Life was meant to experience growing up and developing our own uniqueness. Life was meant to accomplish our personal goals, prepare and build our nest, form casual and permanent relationships, experience the first day of parenthood and grandparenthood, and to finally enjoy periods of personal reflection. Life certainly was not meant to prepare for death.

No one can possibly KNOW that a God(s) exist, anymore than one can know what's in the mind of a God(s). Do you also know if God(s) has any human qualities or attributes at all? Is God Good or Evil? Malevolent or Benevolent? Male or Female? Wise or Dumb? Maybe it is the Devil that we are really praising. Just how do you objectively know? Anyway, you've made your point. You believe that because God(s) has made a positive difference in your life, you need to give God(s) the credit. This may avoid personal responsibility for making your own decisions. I take full responsibility for all my decisions and action. Especially in all stages in planning my life. Since we can't know for certain what is in the mind of man, how can we possibly know what is in the mind of a God(s)? Don

I must say I find predictive prophecy--as did the NT writers--compelling--indeed, Peter, who walked with Christ three years, states that fulfilled predictive prophecy is more worthy of attention then eyewitness testimony.

I questioned the accuracy of the Bible when an adult, but as I checked on predictive prophecy in both testaments, I found the results compelling and God to be a super-mind who exists outside of our timespace.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Okay, it was very kind of you to give me such honest and thorough details since we've been at odds in the past, even recently.

What have other people said about this testimony? I have my own ideas, but ...

What have others said? I gave you the commonest opinions that I've heard - I must have gotten angry with God because I didn't get something I prayed for, or my faith wasn't good enough. Occasionally, I hear that I am trying to be my own god, or trying to escape accountability so that I can sin without compunction, or some other variation of rebellion.

What else can a believer say? That God wasn't there for me? That I was a faithful, fervent Christian who prayed in earnest, but that that wasn't good enough for God? The fault has to be with the former believer, because it can never be God's.

The possibility that this god doesn't exist and that the story I told was the account of a young man who turned to religion in a time of psychological distress, found a great community of people, misunderstood his feelings about what he was experiencing, eventually came to understand them, and made the reasonable choice of moving on is simply not entertained.

But that's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Gut feelings can often be wrong.

Really. Here I thought love at first sight was always
right.

Then I find this, and everything starts spinning seemingly out of control-

A counterintuitive proposition is one that does not seem likely to be true when assessed using intuition, common sense, or gut feelings.[1]

Scientifically discovered, objective truths are often called counterintuitive when intuition, emotions, and other cognitive processes outside of deductive rationalityinterpret them to be wrong. However, the subjective nature of intuition limits the objectivity of what to call counterintuitive because what is counterintuitive for one may be intuitive for another
 
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