Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

[AManCalledHorse]

The falseness is found in your evident inability to process what you read
You could hardly have misread my statement more if you scrambled all the words.

If you are actually developmentally challenged, pardon my insensitivity.

If not plz dont comment on my posts if you are going to just make things up.

And please don't respond to mine if your going to make things up and then turn to personal attacks.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

And please don't respond to mine if your going to make things up and then turn to personal attacks.

You are of course absolutely correct. The cost of your own funeral is totally irrelevant when it comes time to collect. Only the living is aware of your death, not you. Don

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I've always thought that "Agnostic", was the go-to term that many Atheist use to avoid admitting that they simply didn't believe in a God(s). The go-to term seems more reasonable, while the latter term seems more dogmatic. Don

 

[Truly Enlightened]

You are very thoughtful in your assessment. May I point out a few details?

* the arguments for the NT apply to the OT--the Romans had a Pax Romana except in Israel, where zealots wanted to kill Romans for pushing down the OT Law you're citing (saying the OT is a Roman conspiracy to control people makes no sense)

* Christians argue that the Bible Law frees people rather than enslaves them (commandments like have sex with your spouse, avoid adultery, divorce, drug abuse--take off one day a week from work, avoid unhealthy foods, etc.)

* I've studied the origins of the Bible with care--the Jewish OT IS the Christian OT--there are no "missing books", but it's what we have that is compelling

* why is the Bible invalid because it's 2,700 years old? I read novels a century old that are compelling, I read about gentlemen and ladies with better manners than today's manners that are compelling, I read Bible wisdom literature and learn about human nature today...

What about the Book of Tobin, the Book of Wisdom, the Book of Judith, just to name a few books left out of the KJV of the Bible(OT). Please look at this site, and then tell me again that Religious laws are meant to liberate us from anything including our independence and our illusion of free will. 613 commandments - Wikipedia .

We are not talking about the compelling nature of novels or the mannerisms of ladies and gentlemen of the past. We are talking about patterning your entire way of life, based on a 2700 year old book of instructions. I love the Klingons in Star Trek, but I don't pattern my life being immersed in that persona. Enjoy the Bible for what it is. A Book that is meant to give hope, when there was no hope. A Book that is full of compelling stories, myths, wisdom, and parables. A Book that is meant to promote a certain behavior in the majority. And, a Book that is meant to supplant death with the promise of everlasting life. I never said that the Bible was invalid. It certainly was written and exists. But, from the Bronze Age to the Big Data Age, it has not changed? Don

 

[gnostic]

And, a Book that is meant to supplant death with the promise of everlasting life. I never said that the Bible was invalid. It certainly was written and exists. But, from the Bronze Age to the Big Data Age, it has not changed?

I get what you are saying, but let me point most common occurring error.

The stories from Noah to Saul (or to David), may set in the times of the Bronze Age, these stories weren’t originally written in the Bronze Age.

All evidences point to much of the scriptures were written in the Iron Age (1st millennium BCE), from the 7th to 4th centuries BCE.

The oldest writing containing small passage of Numbers were found in the cave of Ketef Hinnom, dated to either late 7th century BCE, or early 6th century BCE...so before the Babylonian army captured Jerusalem (587/6 BCE), and the Jewish elites were exiled to Babylon. They were known as the Silver Scrolls.

The oldest Hebrew writings (Paleo-Hebrew, or Old Hebrew) come from Gezer Calander and inscriptions from Zayit Stone (located in Tell Zayit). Both of these artefacts are from 10th century BCE, and neither of them have anything to do with Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh or the Christian Old Testament).

There are no writings in Hebrew from the 2nd millennium BCE Bronze Age, not on stone walls, tombs, clay tablets or scrolls.

 

[ChristineM]

Positive atheism, also called strong atheism and hard atheism, is the form of atheism that additionally asserts that no deities exist.

That sums you up. You assert what you cannot know.

Yes i am aware of the various labels given to atheists by non atheists.

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

End of story, anything else is just icing on the cake.

Are you saying that in 10,000+ years of god worship, literally billions of people failing show any gods existence, the complete lack of evidence for such a deity and the copious evidence that various deities cannot exist as there faithful worshippers describe. That i don't know? Right, show with falsifiable evidence that any god exists and i will review that evidence, until then i am on firm, hard, strong positive ground.

Seem you assert the product of faith

 

[ChristineM]

And 8.7 Christians compared to 0.7 atheists comes out to 12 to 1. Not 33 to 1 as Christians currently out number atheists. Anything else?

Where did you go to school? May i suggest you go and ask for refresher lessons


That was not 8.7 bit 8:7
And 0.7:3.1

You were the one who brought ratios into the discussion.




Yes we know the christian faith outnumbers every other group, my argument was not about the faith, as you appear to imposing but the ratio in american jails.

 

[ChristineM]

Last poll of the forums I saw had agnostic atheists outnumbering strong atheists. It might have changed since then but like has been said, the forum is hardly representational, being dominated by Americans with our own exasperating hard Christian hard atheist dichotomy. An attitude not prevalent in much of the rest of the world.

Belief in gods without knowledge of gods are close philosophies too. Prevalent in many eastern mysticisms, deism, non-orthodox Judaism etc.

As you say, the the American experience is not really typical.

I can only go off my experience and the definition of the words agnostic and atheist.

Any deviation from those definitions are personal.

 

[ChristineM]

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, ... You can't serve both God and Mammon.

Its clear where you stand. Sadly you will never know if your funeral was great and cost a lot or was cheap and you were thrown in a muddy hole.

That's biblical nonsense. Many people have two or more jobs (sign of the times) and are happy with their situation in serving both masters.

And for myself i don't care either way, but i do care about my family and friends, they deserve to say goodbye to me in whatever way they desire.

It is plain you and i hold completely different philosophies of life.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm well to do. My funeral will be small, only family and my body won't be there. I've donated my body upon death to science after my organs are harvested. Once I'm dead my body and organs, god being or not being, mean nothing to me or god. You should check into doing the same. Help mankind and science.

Please don't preach what i should do, its ignorant in assuming i have not made arrangements for my death and its against forum rules.

Edit: and how well to do you are is quite meaningless, chances are ive donated more to charity in the last 3 years

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I get what you are saying, but let me point most common occurring error.

The stories from Noah to Saul (or to David), may set in the times of the Bronze Age, these stories weren’t originally written in the Bronze Age.

All evidences point to much of the scriptures were written in the Iron Age (1st millennium BCE), from the 7th to 4th centuries BCE.

The oldest writing containing small passage of Numbers were found in the cave of Ketef Hinnom, dated to either late 7th century BCE, or early 6th century BCE...so before the Babylonian army captured Jerusalem (587/6 BCE), and the Jewish elites were exiled to Babylon. They were known as the Silver Scrolls.

The oldest Hebrew writings (Paleo-Hebrew, or Old Hebrew) come from Gezer Calander and inscriptions from Zayit Stone (located in Tell Zayit). Both of these artefacts are from 10th century BCE, and neither of them have anything to do with Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh or the Christian Old Testament).

There are no writings in Hebrew from the 2nd millennium BCE Bronze Age, not on stone walls, tombs, clay tablets or scrolls.

The Bible is a collection of writings, stories, and narratives When was the Bible written? , Egypt and the Bible | Moses, Aaron, Tutmoses I, Tutmoses II, Hatshepsut. . There was no specific time or place when and where it was written. You are certainly correct, but incomplete. Many Religious scholars believe that the earliest writings to contribute to the Bible, were the Egyptian's Hieroglyphs depicting the story of Moses and the Exodus. These hieroglyphs were dated around 1400 BC(3,418 years ago). Since the Bronze Age began between 2300BC - 1000BC, they were written during the Bronze Age. You are correct that most Hebrew and Greek additions to the Bible were added during the Iron Age. My point was not when did the earliest writings in the Bible occur. My point was between the Bronze Age and now(Big Data), each added Biblical writing has not basically changed. The cuneiform writings have not changed. The story of Joseph, has not changed. The story of how Moses could have become a Pharaoh, the Egyptian Deities, the Resurrection, the Birth of Christs, Heaven and Hell, The Fall, The Creation Story, or how we all can reach Salvation, each have not basically changed.

As science changes, so do our understanding. As science evolves, so do we(well most of us). Religious beliefs just don't work that way, since no objective evidence is available. Don

 

[Audie]

Yes, i was in on that beauty discussion, I'm an artists, beauty is paramount

And I like talking

Please don't preach what i should do, its ignorant in assuming i have not made arrangements for my death and its against forum rules.

Edit: and how well to do you are is quite meaningless, chances are ive donated more to charity in the last 3 years

Oh, I dont know...how much money the Trump has sure means a lot!

 

[ChristineM]

And I like talking


Oh, I dont know...how much money the Trump has sure means a lot!

Perhaps we could set up an Olympics taking team ;-)

I think I'd prefer life without the trump ego encroaching on every day

 

[Shad]

The Bible is a collection of writings, stories, and narratives When was the Bible written? , Egypt and the Bible | Moses, Aaron, Tutmoses I, Tutmoses II, Hatshepsut. . There was no specific time or place when and where it was written. You are certainly correct, but incomplete. Many Religious scholars believe that the earliest writings to contribute to the Bible, were the Egyptian's Hieroglyphs depicting the story of Moses and the Exodus. These hieroglyphs were dated around 1400 BC(3,418 years ago). Since the Bronze Age began between 2300BC - 1000BC, they were written during the Bronze Age. You are correct that most Hebrew and Greek additions to the Bible were added during the Iron Age. My point was not when did the earliest writings in the Bible occur. My point was between the Bronze Age and now(Big Data), each added Biblical writing has not basically changed. The cuneiform writings have not changed. The story of Joseph, has not changed. The story of how Moses could have become a Pharaoh, the Egyptian Deities, the Resurrection, the Birth of Christs, Heaven and Hell, The Fall, The Creation Story, or how we all can reach Salvation, each have not basically changed.

All your source does is link dates found within practiced history (academic fields) and links it to the Bible. Nothing more.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

The likelihood that God did not participate in the creation of the universe is negligible (and likely zero). Why be an Atheist?

Well, think for yourself, no matter how many garbage there is in the landfill, the rhinoceros will not be born there. From lifeless only lifeless comes - scientifically proved by Dr. Pasteur.

To say that the probability of the godless origin of life is 100 percent (because we are alive) is not scientific. This is the so-called "conditional" probability. Unconditional probability is negligible.

That pretty much sums it up, but it assumes that one does not have a passionate disdain for the concept of a creator!

 

[gnostic]

There was no specific time or place when and where it was written. You are certainly correct, but incomplete. Many Religious scholars believe that the earliest writings to contribute to the Bible, were the Egyptian's Hieroglyphs depicting the story of Moses and the Exodus.

Sorry, but that all make believe.

Bronze Egypt is dated to 3100 - 1050 BCE, from the 1st dynasty to 21st dynasty.

I am quite familiar with Egyptian literature, which include history and religion, both in hieroglyphs and hiearatic, and none of them depict Moses and the Exodus.

There is only one mention of possibly "Israel" in the Bronze Age, on the Mernapth Stele, a stone artefact containing hieroglyphic inscriptions, of the pharaoh's victory. Mernapth reigned between 1213 to 1203 BCE. Mernapth is the son of Ramesses II (1279 - 1213 BCE), whom he succeeded, in the 19th dynasty.

This talk of the Egyptian campaign in Syria and Canaan, and a single reference to Israel, in which Mernapth's army wiping out Israel, but no references to Hebrew/Israelite slaves, and mass liberation and exodus, nor mention of this "Moses".

Speaking of Ramesses II. It was this king who had Pi-Ramesses - "house of Ramesses", built during his reign, which in Exodus is called Rameses, and the other city was Pithom, supposedly built around the time of Moses' birth:

11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with forced labor. They built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh.

Exodus give no names to the kings who ruled during the time of Moses' birth

But if Pi-Ramesses was built in 13th century BCE, then we have time issue with the bible story of Moses.

Because according to 1 Kings 6:1, Moses leading Israelites were supposedly liberated 480 years before Solomon began building his Temple. Solomon supposed reigned from about 970 - 930 BCE, and his 4th year would put the foundation of the Temple in 967 BCE.

Doing the math, 967 + 480 = 1447 BCE. And Moses was supposedly 80 years old when liberated the Isralite slaves, so doing some more maths, 1447 BCE + 80 = 1527 BCE. Meaning Moses' birth was around 1527 BCE.

There is a gap of at least 2-and-a-half centuries, between Moses' birth (from calculation of 1 Kings 6:1 480 years and Moses' age). So clearly the Jewish authors of when Rameses and Pithom was built is wrong, because it doesn't correlate with actual Pi-Ramesses being built.

And 1527 BCE would put Moses' birth near the end of the reign of Ahmose I, the first king of the 18th dynasty, when Pi-Ramesses didn't exist.

But anyway, get back to your claim of hieroglyph version of Exodus. I have seen no such version.

So unless you can provide a primary source about Exodus in Egyptian hieroglyphs, I think your so-called "religious scholars" are just making things up, meaning they are lying about their claims.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am certainly not familiar with Egyptian Hieroglyphs, to challenge your comments. These dates of births of events are not pertinent to the point of my post at all. You seem to be purposely avoiding my main points, for some unknown reason. I don't care when the earliest scriptures of the Bible were written, or its Age of Discovery. So, let me rephrase for the last time. I believe that, "from a long time ago until today" the central theme of most beliefs, superstitions, stories, and cultural myths, remain unchanged(I concede that there may be some exceptions). It is this idea that I have a problem with. This is not the problem that exist in the advancement of science. THIS WAS MY POINT. Maybe you can offer your opinion on this? I will certainly, in the future, be very aware of your scrutiny. Don

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I've never met any person--or even heard of any such person--who said, "Gonna rape and kill and steal then love Jesus at the last minute, man . . . "

It doesn't matter whether you've met them or not. The fact that God deliberately holds the door open for such a situation to occur is an absolute demonstration that the Christian form of morality that you describe is not a moral system at all.

My children could say horrible things to me for 50 years, then repent, and I'd give them a hug. Why should you say God wouldn't do this for His own children?

This sort of false equivalence is ridiculous. We aren't talking about people "saying horrible things" and then "giving them a hug if they repent". We're talking about a system of morality that ultimately doesn't care if you spend YOUR ENTIRE LIFE raping and murdering - you're still entitled to eternal reward provided you repent at exactly the right moment before death, while people who spent their entire life being kind, generous and loving are doomed to eternal punishment simply for believing the wrong thing or not having the opportunity to repent.

That is not a moral system. To use your analogy, imagine your child murdering and raping throughout their entire life, then just as they are about to be sentenced to life in prison they come crying to you and you tell them you forgive them - and because you forgave them, they have to release them from prison and never try them for any of their crimes ever again.

Does that sound like justice to you?

 

[ArtieE]

I've always thought that "Agnostic", was the go-to term that many Atheist use to avoid admitting that they simply didn't believe in a God(s). The go-to term seems more reasonable, while the latter term seems more dogmatic. Don

Theist: A person who believes in the existence of one or more gods.
Atheist: Any person who is not a theist.
Gnostic: A person who claims to know either that one or more gods exist or that no gods exist.
Agnostic: A person who doesn't know whether gods exist or not.

Gnostic theist: A person who claims to know that at least one god exists.
Gnostic atheist: A person who claims to know that gods don't exist.
Agnostic theist: A person who doesn't know if one or more gods exist but believes at least one do.
Agnostic weak atheist: A person who doesn't know if gods do exist and doesn't believe gods do exist.
Agnostic strong atheist: A person who doesn't know gods don't exist but believes they don't exist.

 

[Audie]

Theist: A person who believes in the existence of one or more gods.
Atheist: Any person who is not a theist.
Gnostic: A person who claims to know either that one or more gods exist or that no gods exist.
Agnostic: A person who doesn't know whether gods exist or not.

Gnostic theist: A person who claims to know that at least one god exists.
Gnostic atheist: A person who claims to know that gods don't exist.
Agnostic theist: A person who doesn't know if one or more gods exist but believes at least one do.
Agnostic weak atheist: A person who doesn't know if gods do exist and doesn't believe gods do exist.
Agnostic strong atheist: A person who doesn't know gods don't exist but believes they don't exist.

All this labeling and defining is really tiresome, it being
set forth from the pov of a "believer", and put in negative terms. "Agnostic weak atheist"?

I might as well define others in terms of their concern with football in
Mozambique, the default being to be a great believer. Such people might ask-

"Are you an a-footballist???"

or wonder

An agnostic Mozambiquean footballist who is not sure if there is such a thing?

What positive name could one give to someone who just has no interest
in speculation about t he behaviour of players, and the rules of game not know to exist?