Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

Thank you! A sound and reasoned answer.

No moral certitude can be said to be objective. Morals must be self-evident to the moralist at some level. It is self-evident to me that God exists.

And yes, to see biblical prophecy fulfilled, we must have physical evidence in reality. Yes.

I see that you still do not understand the term "self evident". It does not mean evident to yourself. And no, there is no logical requirement that morals be self evident at any level. You really should not use that phrase, you keep misusing it.

You also do not seem to understand how the morals of the Bible are objective and not subjective.

And one question, if a prophet makes a failed prophecy does the Bible not say that the is not a prophet?

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's exactly the same thing I was saying earlier. I've been saying the same thing the whole time.

I just explained how my moral system is superior in the very post you just responded to. You don't even have a moral system. You have only dictates.

He appears to be truly confused on this matter. He first attacked objective morality and he still does not understand how his morals are objective.

 

[Audie]

It's exactly the same thing I was saying earlier. I've been saying the same thing the whole time.

I just explained how my moral system is superior in the very post you just responded to. You don't even have a moral system. You have only dictates.

"Thou shalt not steal"

I wonder who here considers this an objective moral absolute, and would
not steal under any circumstances.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You must not realize that if Nostradamus had 20 (vague!) predictions come to pass, he is less than 1% accurate. Your question is more to the point: what if all the prophecies turned out to be true? Then we would realize God is 100% prescient, a super-being.

How would we realize that? You have yet to answer my question about that. How are you jumping from, "These guys a long time ago were able to accurately predict something that happened much later in time (and that's assuming your claim is accurate, just for the sake of argument), to "the God of the Bible is 100% prescient, a super-being." Please explain how you got from the former to the latter. When does God come into the picture?

He's probably hovering somewhere near the same level of accuracy as the Bible is, when it comes to prophecies. But let's say Nostradamus got ALL of his predictions correct. Would that lead you to conclude that a God exists? Why or why not?

Which leads me to another question. If there is a prophecy in the Bible that did not turn out as predicted, what would that mean?

I'm curious how you demonstrate #3?

For one example, Jews are 1/4 of 1% of the world's population, yet win 12% of Nobel stem prizes. They outperform Gentiles 48:1 or more. Entire books have been written about the Jewish accomplishments in every field of human endeavor despite lacking a nation of their own, and experiencing persecution everywhere.

It's likely due to the fact that they've faced so much hardship and persecution throughout their history that they had no choice but to toughen up and become smarter and more assertive in order to ensure their survival. Or perhaps they have placed a lot of emphasis on education and the acquisition of knowledge. Or perhaps it was because they've often found themselves in situations where they end up being drawn to the sciences for whatever reason. Perhaps they were able to find acceptance within the scientific community that couldn't be easily found elsewhere. It's probably a combination of factors, like most things are. It probably has more to do with these and a variety of other factors, than the supposed fact that they are God's chosen people.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hold the phone! Please prove your husband exists.

Well, if I were not on an anonymous forum, I would produce photos of him. I would produce documents with his signature on them. I would produce his birth certificate, driver's licence, health card and social insurance card. I would provide you with his birth announcement that was published in the local newspaper. I would introduce you to his parents, brothers and friends who could talk to you about him. His mother can tell you about how she gave birth to him. And if you still didn't believe me, I could probably track down some hospital staff who were there on the day he was born.

Perhaps you could address my actual point now.

 

[Altfish]

#BilliardsBall
No, I'd rather be with Jim Morrison, Jimmy Hendrix, George Best, etc. than Mother Theresa, the Old Popes, etc. (assuming they passed the hypocrisy test)
Hitler was a catholic, so probably asked for forgiveness and got in to heaven at the last moment, same with most paedophiles.

 

[ChristineM]

Repeating: I'm not stuck on rape. I asked if you can prove anything is objectively true, so I can show how we can apply the same standards of evidence for Jesus Christ.

And if it were the first time i would believe you. Remember we have had previous contact on another forum. You included rape in 2 arguments with me there. And i see you also bring on rape to conversations with other females on this forum.

 

[ChristineM]

Please provide that evidence now.

Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies Found in the Old Testament | Jewish Voice Ministries International

“Jesus, son of Pantera”

 

[Phantasman]

You did not know that Paul says in 1 Cor 15 that Christ died for our sin "according to the scriptures"?

What do you see as scriptures? OT?

1 Corinthians:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Now if you read closely, what scripture says Christ died for sins? Which scripture says he will rise again the thid day? Which one says he was seen by Cephas first? Which one says Jesus was seen by more than 500, and by the time Paul was writing to Corinth, that some who had seen the risen Jesus had already died, but many of the 500 still lived?

This doesn't point to the OT at all. Most scholars believe that by the end of the 1st century that more than 100 gospels had been penned. Paul is referencing the many writings that existed until the catholic ideology tried to destroy everything in favor of their own belief system.

The catholic ideology (Bible) is full of holes. They have created a story that they themselves cannot even follow. The OT was closed with the words "it is finished". Truth prevails over confusion and ignorance (of Spirit).

 

[BilliardsBall]

I see that you still do not understand the term "self evident". It does not mean evident to yourself. And no, there is no logical requirement that morals be self evident at any level. You really should not use that phrase, you keep misusing it.

You also do not seem to understand how the morals of the Bible are objective and not subjective.

And one question, if a prophet makes a failed prophecy does the Bible not say that the is not a prophet?

Huh? You find the morals of the Bible are objective?

If a prophet fails or if the prophet pushes worship of a foreign God, it's a Bible "epic fail," yes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, if I were not on an anonymous forum, I would produce photos of him. I would produce documents with his signature on them. I would produce his birth certificate, driver's licence, health card and social insurance card. I would provide you with his birth announcement that was published in the local newspaper. I would introduce you to his parents, brothers and friends who could talk to you about him. His mother can tell you about how she gave birth to him. And if you still didn't believe me, I could probably track down some hospital staff who were there on the day he was born.

Perhaps you could address my actual point now.

How does that prove he exists? What you're talking about is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," which can be arrived at when discussing the claims of the NT.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How would we realize that? You have yet to answer my question about that. How are you jumping from, "These guys a long time ago were able to accurately predict something that happened much later in time (and that's assuming your claim is accurate, just for the sake of argument), to "the God of the Bible is 100% prescient, a super-being." Please explain how you got from the former to the latter. When does God come into the picture?

He's probably hovering somewhere near the same level of accuracy as the Bible is, when it comes to prophecies. But let's say Nostradamus got ALL of his predictions correct. Would that lead you to conclude that a God exists? Why or why not?

Which leads me to another question. If there is a prophecy in the Bible that did not turn out as predicted, what would that mean?


It's likely due to the fact that they've faced so much hardship and persecution throughout their history that they had no choice but to toughen up and become smarter and more assertive in order to ensure their survival. Or perhaps they have placed a lot of emphasis on education and the acquisition of knowledge. Or perhaps it was because they've often found themselves in situations where they end up being drawn to the sciences for whatever reason. Perhaps they were able to find acceptance within the scientific community that couldn't be easily found elsewhere. It's probably a combination of factors, like most things are. It probably has more to do with these and a variety of other factors, than the supposed fact that they are God's chosen people.

So you have a social Darwinist reason why we Jews are smarter than everyone, and for millennia? Interesting!

I get God is prescient from the following facts:

1. Other prophets fail, spectacularly, in ancient and modern times.
2. Multiple Bible writers bring in numerous fulfilled prophecies.
3. Each of these writers claims divine communication/inspiration.
4. These writers, even across the centuries, are univocal in doctrine.

If there is a prophecy in the Bible that didn't turn out as predicted, then the book would have long ago been rejected as canon. In the case of Jesus, over 300 OT prophecies are cited in just the first few books of the NT.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And if it were the first time i would believe you. Remember we have had previous contact on another forum. You included rape in 2 arguments with me there. And i see you also bring on rape to conversations with other females on this forum.

What forum did we chat on, may I ask?

I use the rape analogy because I want to see if skeptics will admit to any universal truths. "Rape is wrong, to me, sometimes," disgusts me. Rape is always objectively and subjectively wrong, period. Stand up for women (and the men who get raped, many thousands of them worldwide) and say rape is ABSOLUTELY wrong, rather than take the atheist's view that NOTHING is absolute, knowing that moral absolutes indicate a moral Lawgiver.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies Found in the Old Testament | Jewish Voice Ministries International

“Jesus, son of Pantera”

Are you aware that you were quoting a Messianic Jewish site that used this headline to explain why Jewish people should accept Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecy?

 

[BilliardsBall]

What do you see as scriptures? OT?

1 Corinthians:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Now if you read closely, what scripture says Christ died for sins? Which scripture says he will rise again the thid day? Which one says he was seen by Cephas first? Which one says Jesus was seen by more than 500, and by the time Paul was writing to Corinth, that some who had seen the risen Jesus had already died, but many of the 500 still lived?

This doesn't point to the OT at all. Most scholars believe that by the end of the 1st century that more than 100 gospels had been penned. Paul is referencing the many writings that existed until the catholic ideology tried to destroy everything in favor of their own belief system.

The catholic ideology (Bible) is full of holes. They have created a story that they themselves cannot even follow. The OT was closed with the words "it is finished". Truth prevails over confusion and ignorance (of Spirit).

Some of your questions, "which scripture prophesied?" are in the OT. There are also NT verses that explain what occurred then, without being OT prophecy.

I don't believe Catholic doctrine, but the Bible (66) is inspired. What do you believe, exactly?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Huh? You find the morals of the Bible are objective?

No, they are subjective, and it is rather easy to show that.

If a prophet fails or if the prophet pushes worship of a foreign God, it's a Bible "epic fail," yes.

So then Ezekiel was not a prophet is what you are saying.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What forum did we chat on, may I ask?

I use the rape analogy because I want to see if skeptics will admit to any universal truths. "Rape is wrong, to me, sometimes," disgusts me. Rape is always objectively and subjectively wrong, period. Stand up for women (and the men who get raped, many thousands of them worldwide) and say rape is ABSOLUTELY wrong, rather than take the atheist's view that NOTHING is absolute, knowing that moral absolutes indicate a moral Lawgiver.

Actually since rape, especially by your standards, is subjectively wrong, you should not be disgusted with the fact that it is subjectively wrong. It would be a very flawed morality in which it was not wrong.

You seem to have a bias against subjective morality. And that is very strange indeed.

 

[ChristineM]

What forum did we chat on, may I ask?

I use the rape analogy because I want to see if skeptics will admit to any universal truths. "Rape is wrong, to me, sometimes," disgusts me. Rape is always objectively and subjectively wrong, period. Stand up for women (and the men who get raped, many thousands of them worldwide) and say rape is ABSOLUTELY wrong, rather than take the atheist's view that NOTHING is absolute, knowing that moral absolutes indicate a moral Lawgiver.

Topix. If its wrong to you then why must you keep bringing it up.

What atheist view? You making up bs again? We have discussed the theft of morality by religion. You seem to ignore facts so you can pander to your faith

 

[ChristineM]

Are you aware that you were quoting a Messianic Jewish site that used this headline to explain why Jewish people should accept Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecy?

Negative, it used the headline to describe the fact that jc did not fulfill the requirements and lists some of those failures

 

[SkepticThinker]

So you have a social Darwinist reason why we Jews are smarter than everyone, and for millennia? Interesting!

I never said "Jews are smarter than everyone."

I get God is prescient from the following facts:

1. Other prophets fail, spectacularly, in ancient and modern times.

Except for Nostradamus. And according, to Muslims I've spoken with, the Quran contains a bunch of fulfilled prophecies too. But I doubt you're about to convert to Islam.

2. Multiple Bible writers bring in numerous fulfilled prophecies.

But you ignore the prophecies that didn't come true. How is this not just an example of confirmation bias?

3. Each of these writers claims divine communication/inspiration.

So do a bunch of other people from a bunch of other religions, some still in existence, and others that have long since disappeared into the trash heap of history.

4. These writers, even across the centuries, are univocal in doctrine.

Except when they aren't. And that pesky fact that there are thousands of Christian denominations in existence today. How is this not another example of confirmation bias?

If there is a prophecy in the Bible that didn't turn out as predicted, then the book would have long ago been rejected as canon. In the case of Jesus, over 300 OT prophecies are cited in just the first few books of the NT.

When people picked and chose what books would ultimately end up in the Bible, that wouldn't be all that surprising, now would it?

Nevertheless, there are a bunch of unfulfilled/inaccurate prophecies in your holy book, like the prophecy about Tyre, for example. So I guess I'm perfectly justified in not buying into it.