Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

I never said "Jews are smarter than everyone."


Except for Nostradamus. And according, to Muslims I've spoken with, the Quran contains a bunch of fulfilled prophecies too. But I doubt you're about to convert to Islam.


But you ignore the prophecies that didn't come true. How is this not just an example of confirmation bias?


So do a bunch of other people from a bunch of other religions, some still in existence, and others that have long since disappeared into the trash heap of history.


Except when they aren't. And that pesky fact that there are thousands of Christian denominations in existence today. How is this not another example of confirmation bias?

When people picked and chose what books would ultimately end up in the Bible, that wouldn't be all that surprising, now would it?

Nevertheless, there are a bunch of unfulfilled/inaccurate prophecies in your holy book, like the prophecy about Tyre, for example. So I guess I'm perfectly justified in not buying into it.

I do believe you read my mind in regards to Zeke.

 

[Audie]

How would we realize that? You have yet to answer my question about that. How are you jumping from, "These guys a long time ago were able to accurately predict something that happened much later in time (and that's assuming your claim is accurate, just for the sake of argument), to "the God of the Bible is 100% prescient, a super-being." Please explain how you got from the former to the latter. When does God come into the picture?

He's probably hovering somewhere near the same level of accuracy as the Bible is, when it comes to prophecies. But let's say Nostradamus got ALL of his predictions correct. Would that lead you to conclude that a God exists? Why or why not?

Which leads me to another question. If there is a prophecy in the Bible that did not turn out as predicted, what would that mean?


It's likely due to the fact that they've faced so much hardship and persecution throughout their history that they had no choice but to toughen up and become smarter and more assertive in order to ensure their survival. Or perhaps they have placed a lot of emphasis on education and the acquisition of knowledge. Or perhaps it was because they've often found themselves in situations where they end up being drawn to the sciences for whatever reason. Perhaps they were able to find acceptance within the scientific community that couldn't be easily found elsewhere. It's probably a combination of factors, like most things are. It probably has more to do with these and a variety of other factors, than the supposed fact that they are God's chosen people.

If someone could predict the future, I would be concerned that the law of cause and effect was
starting to fail.

Next, the law of diminishing returns and the law of averages start to spin seemingly out of control?

This is very disturbing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do believe you read my mind in regards to Zeke.

Maybe I'm a prophet.

 

[Phantasman]

Some of your questions, "which scripture prophesied?" are in the OT. There are also NT verses that explain what occurred then, without being OT prophecy.

I don't believe Catholic doctrine, but the Bible (66) is inspired. What do you believe, exactly?

Only the Spirit reveals truth. Not men. And man cannot dictate where truth is or isn't. But many follow those men blindly.

Only the Spirit reveals what to understand:

John
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Yet men seek out Moses for truth.

John:
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Yet men seek out those before Christ for truth.

There's a difference in spiritual understanding and following the path of those who died because they didn't have it:

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The orthodox trained men to see that it is they who give them the bread (wafers). They picked the books to follow. Only by understanding the Spirit can one see "all truth". And the Spirit wasn't given until Jesus arose. Why would I seek it from the Bible (OT)?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually since rape, especially by your standards, is subjectively wrong, you should not be disgusted with the fact that it is subjectively wrong. It would be a very flawed morality in which it was not wrong.

You seem to have a bias against subjective morality. And that is very strange indeed.

I have a subjective belief set, as do you. Rape is ALWAYS, objectively wrong, however. It's strange when skeptics are so very committed to having zero absolutes that they will not say that rape is ALWAYS wrong. It's further gross as well as "strange".

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, they are subjective, and it is rather easy to show that.



So then Ezekiel was not a prophet is what you are saying.

You need to speak more clearly, then, I agree the Bible morals are subjective, although they hold certain objective truths, for example, rape is ALWAYS wrong, not "wrong for me today" or "sometimes wrong" as moral relativists and atheists "teach".

Ezekiel was certainly a prophet.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Negative, it used the headline to describe the fact that jc did not fulfill the requirements and lists some of those failures

You didn't read the article. It was posted by an agency trying to get Jews and Gentiles to trust Christ for salvation. Since you know how to read, you must be spiritually blind.

 

[ChristineM]

You didn't read the article. It was posted by an agency trying to get Jews and Gentiles to trust Christ for salvation. Since you know how to read, you must be spiritually blind.

Yes i read it, it speculates based on faith that JC will return but until then it states JC did not fulfill the requirements to be the messiah

If JC returns come back and try again

 

[BilliardsBall]

I said, Jews are smarter! If you deny this, know your attempt to explain outperforming Gentiles in Nobel Prize winning 48:1 still sounds feeble.

Less than 1% of N's prophecies came true. We can also easily invalidate Quran'ic "prophecy".

I don't ignore Bible prophecies that are yet to come true because they are tied to Christ's Return.

It's NOT true that "a bunch of others claimed inspiration" AND claimed to show evidence via miracles and prophecy.

There can be MILLIONS of denominations today, which does nothing to invalidate OR validate Jesus's resurrection or the truth of the Bible. I can't even find two atheists on this forum who agree to the same moral code. Does that invalidate atheism?

Which prophecy about Tyre do you feel missed the mark?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Only the Spirit reveals truth. Not men. And man cannot dictate where truth is or isn't. But many follow those men blindly.

Only the Spirit reveals what to understand:

John
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Yet men seek out Moses for truth.

John:
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Yet men seek out those before Christ for truth.

There's a difference in spiritual understanding and following the path of those who died because they didn't have it:

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The orthodox trained men to see that it is they who give them the bread (wafers). They picked the books to follow. Only by understanding the Spirit can one see "all truth". And the Spirit wasn't given until Jesus arose. Why would I seek it from the Bible (OT)?

Why would you seek truth from the Bible? Where else are you getting Jesus's words and direction from? What other book is "perfect, converting the soul . . . refined seven times, as by fire . . . is the logos/mind of Jesus Christ?

 

[Phantasman]

Why would you seek truth from the Bible? Where else are you getting Jesus's words and direction from? What other book is "perfect, converting the soul . . . refined seven times, as by fire . . . is the logos/mind of Jesus Christ?

"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.- Secret James

Obviously, the catholic priests didn't believe this. I do. It's not in the Bible, yet the Spirit reveals whether it's knowledge or not. It does not challenge Paul's 1 Corinthians 13 use of the words in order, but Paul places emphasis on the importance of where faith leads.


"Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment."- Gospel of Philip

The orthodox priests do not want man to follow the Spirit. They want to interpret the Spirit for man. They fall short when one see's them for what they are.

God gave NO man the right to say what is truth and what isn't. Spiritual gnosis from the Spirit reveals Christ in a way the OT ignorance doesn't.

"But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good. And afterward, what a favor they do for them! They make them be removed from those that are not good and place them among those that are good. These things they knew, for they wanted to take the free man and make him a slave to them forever."- Gospel of Philip

All the verses about edify the Gospels and Paul, while closing the door on those who never knew the Father. They line up with Christs teachings perfectly (where the OT does not). It solves the mystery spoken by Christ and Paul.

 

[ArtieE]

Why would you seek truth from the Bible? Where else are you getting Jesus's words and direction from?

The Urantia Book? Home | Urantia Book | Urantia Foundation
The Book of Mormon? Jesus' Words Are Found in the Book of Mormon
The other gospels for example? The Sayings of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Rape is ALWAYS, objectively wrong

There is no such thing as an objective moral value. If there were, you could show it rather than just talk about it.

This was already explained to you, and you declined to comment, much less offer a rebuttal. Presumably, if you could have explained why the argument was incorrect, you would have. Merely offering the opposite conclusion without an explanation for why you disagree with the specifics of the argument gets you nowhere.

The argument still stands.

It's strange when skeptics are so very committed to having zero absolutes that they will not say that rape is ALWAYS wrong

Some have even here on RF. But that is irrelevant. One can only speak of one's own moral values.

What I and many others say is that there is no objective morality. Moral values are not objects or attached to objects. They are subjective beliefs. They do not exist out in space independent from moral agents. They don't reveal themselves to the eye, or in a telescope or microscope like other objectively real things do.

rape is ALWAYS wrong, not "wrong for me today" or "sometimes wrong" as moral relativists and atheists "teach".

You can only say that rape is wrong to you. Others may agree - perhaps universally - but that still doesn't make any moral precept objectively real or even true.

A collection of subjective beliefs, even if all identical, remains a collection of subjective beliefs. It does not become objective just by being commonplace or universal.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I said, Jews are smarter! If you deny this, know your attempt to explain outperforming Gentiles in Nobel Prize winning 48:1 still sounds feeble.

I don't generalize like you do, I guess.

There are plenty of places in the world where people have no access to proper educational facilities and resources and will therefore never even get a chance to share their ideas with the world. So I don't think you can just claim one group of people is smarter than another based on Nobel Prize winners. You're free to believe whatever you want, of course.

Less than 1% of N's prophecies came true. We can also easily invalidate Quran'ic "prophecy".

Apparently, whether or not you believe anybody's prophecies have come true depend on your agenda and/or your subjective viewpoint then. That's not hard to do when they're as vague as they are.

Muslims will say their prophecies have come true, you say they haven't.
You say Christian prophecies have all come true, other say they haven't.
People say Nostradamus' propechies have mostly come true, you say they haven't.

How can we figure this out then?

I don't ignore Bible prophecies that are yet to come true because they are tied to Christ's Return.

So you are confirming your confirmation bias. Thank you for being so honest!

It's NOT true that "a bunch of others claimed inspiration" AND claimed to show evidence via miracles and prophecy.

Sure it is.

But even if both of your claims are true, so what?

There can be MILLIONS of denominations today, which does nothing to invalidate OR validate Jesus's resurrection or the truth of the Bible. I can't even find two atheists on this forum who agree to the same moral code. Does that invalidate atheism?

It indicates to me that the Bible can be twisted to say what the reader wants it to say, based on each individual's personal interpretation of its parts.

Atheists don't look to ancient holy books and religious dogma to form their morality, so it says nothing about them.

Which prophecy about Tyre do you feel missed the mark?

Tyre was supposed to be destroyed and the land would never be built upon again. Tyre still exists.

 

[Audie]

I don't generalize like you do, I guess.

There are plenty of places in the world where people have no access to proper educational facilities and resources and will therefore never even get a chance to share their ideas with the world. So I don't think you can just claim one group of people is smarter than another based on Nobel Prize winners. You're free to believe whatever you want, of course.


Apparently, whether or not you believe anybody's prophecies have come true depend on your agenda and/or your subjective viewpoint then. That's not hard to do when they're as vague as they are.

Muslims will say their prophecies have come true, you say they haven't.
You say Christian prophecies have all come true, other say they haven't.
People say Nostradamus' propechies have mostly come true, you say they haven't.

How can we figure this out then?


So you are confirming your confirmation bias. Thank you for being so honest!


Sure it is.

But even if both of your claims are true, so what?

It indicates to me that the Bible can be twisted to say what the reader wants it to say, based on each individual's personal interpretation of its parts.

Atheists don't look to ancient holy books and religious dogma to form their morality, so it says nothing about them.

Tyre was supposed to be destroyed and the land would never be built upon again. Tyre still exists.

Oddly, you will get people who are so determined that
bible prophecy is all true, that they will insist that the
Tyre prophecy did come true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Oddly, you will get people who are so determined that
bible prophecy is all true, that they will insist that the
Tyre prophecy did come true.

Oh I know! Been there, done that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have a subjective belief set, as do you. Rape is ALWAYS, objectively wrong, however. It's strange when skeptics are so very committed to having zero absolutes that they will not say that rape is ALWAYS wrong. It's further gross as well as "strange".

If your beliefs are subjective then how is rape objectively wrong? It looks like you just contradicted yourself. And please note, just because I know that rape is objectively wrong does not mean that I think that it is always wrong. Your problem is that you do not know how to analyze your feelings logically.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You need to speak more clearly, then, I agree the Bible morals are subjective, although they hold certain objective truths, for example, rape is ALWAYS wrong, not "wrong for me today" or "sometimes wrong" as moral relativists and atheists "teach".

What is a supposed "objective truth" in the Bible? How do you know it is an "objective truth"? You are conflating your inability to understand morals with immorality in others.

Ezekiel was certainly a prophet.

Once again you contradict yourself. Zeke screwed up big time. SkepticThinker already spilled the beans with a twofer.

 

[Audie]

If your beliefs are subjective then how is rape objectively wrong? It looks like you just contradicted yourself. And please note, just because I know that rape is objectively wrong does not mean that I think that it is always wrong. Your problem is that you do not know how to analyze your feelings logically.

Some of us here feel that the evident fixation on "rape"
has something a bit off about it, and find it distasteful-among other things-for anyone to continue this line of discussion. Plz dont encourage it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oddly, you will get people who are so determined that
bible prophecy is all true, that they will insist that the
Tyre prophecy did come true.

I like to use it as a test to see if a Christian can be honest or not. If they can't admit that the prophecy failed terribly then they are rather hopeless, and not just the prophecy about Tyre itself. The added prediction from Zeke that Nebby would defeat Egypt and that it would become a barren wasteland. Last time I checked that did not happen during Nebby's lifetime and in fact it never happened.