Zionism

[Sha'irullah]

opcorn:

opcorn: no hamantash emoticon so I will settle for popcorn

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You said there be a Filistine yet the Filistinians claim the land by right just like the Jews so you are being a hypocrite saying the Jews cannot claim it by right yet the Filistinians can.

I never said the Palestinians can claim the land "by right". I said it is their land because they took it centuries ago. Nobody has a "right" to the land, and to claim otherwise is pretentious.

Native Americans did not have countries either but it was still their land.

Keyword being "WAS". The Native Americans fought to keep their land and lost. If they came back and tried to claim it by birthright, they would still have to fight to retake it. You couldn't fault the people who live in the US now for fighting to defend their homes.

Jews did not invade on Filistinian land and this is fact.

They're doing it right now as we speak. Land that is currently inhabited by Palestinians is being destroyed to make room for new Jewish settlements all the time. This is why the green on the other map gets progressively smaller. It doesn't matter who the land belonged to thousands of years ago.

The general area called Israel has always been the area the Jews occupied and considering the Filistinians are already Jordanian then how can their natural territory be another?

This is irrelevant. There is no such thing as "natural territory". Having lived there before does not mean they have a right to the land. If you got evicted from your apartment and had to move to another, do you have the right to go back to your old apartment and tell the new tenants to move out?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Another example: I have ancestors from the medieval kingdom of Navarre, located in Northern Spain. My ancestors were Basque, but the area has since been conquered by Muslims, the French, and now the modern day Spaniards. There are still Basque people in the area as of today. Since this area still retains a Basque identity and I am of Basque descent, do I have the right to go into Navarre, kill people, and claim the land as my own by right of my Basque blood?

 

[Matemkar]

I suggest "Recognizing Zionism" series by Mr Raefipour. It is very informative..

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I suggest "Recognizing Zionism" series by Mr Raefipour. It is very informative..

Never heard of it. Sounds interesting, I'll give it a read.

I've got a lot of time to do it now since nobody wants to continue the debate

 

[Sha'irullah]

Never heard of it. Sounds interesting, I'll give it a read.

I've got a lot of time to do it now since nobody wants to continue the debate

I do not mean to sound like a quitter but I have debated this topic so many times as it was a pivotal point in my departure from Islam it is unsettling to continue it.

I have read your other responses and all I can say is that I have seen such claims before and I can already see their faults.
This debate is truly just something I have gotten tired of I no longer have the energy for it.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I do not mean to sound like a quitter but I have debated this topic so many times as it was a pivotal point in my departure from Islam it is unsettling to continue it.

I have read your other responses and all I can say is that I have seen such claims before and I can already see their faults.
This debate is truly just something I have gotten tired of I no longer have the energy for it.

I'm honestly curious to hear what the faults in my arguments are, particularly the last one (post #23), which sounds exactly like Zionism to me. No pressure though

 

[Sha'irullah]

I'm honestly curious to hear what the faults in my arguments are, particularly the last one (post #23), which sounds exactly like Zionism to me. No pressure though

I will just say that it is not similar from your description alone. Israeli's having been recently removed and slaughtered changes a lot of things. Jordan is the country that imposed and bullied a people to conform to its standards.

This is essentially like me kicking you out of your own house and locking you out after a period of years with you constantly trying to get in. Just because I have made it my home does not mean you have no right to your house.

Jews are still being forced out of their land because Palestinians want all of it. Having been with hundreds of Muslims I can easily tell you that the extermination of Jews is the goal not land.

Also Filistinians have their original home so it is not like your ancestors issue. Their home is in Jordan which is funny because Jordan has been the biggest imposer in this issue. Saying that Filistinians have no right to claim Jewish land is different then them having the right to live on it because they do as long as they cause no harm but they are.

Dear me, here I go ranting

 

[Levite]

Oh, just for the sake of having someone publicly say it (and perhaps in a fit of masochism) I'll just go ahead and note that all this anti-Zionist claptrap is just that. It's absurd political propaganda, and is either magnificently ignorant or anti-Semitic, one of the two.

I especially liked the part about how Ashkenazim (European Jews) "aren't really Jews" or that converts "aren't really Jews" either.

What a load of poisonous horse crap....

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Oh, just for the sake of having someone publicly say it (and perhaps in a fit of masochism) I'll just go ahead and note that all this anti-Zionist claptrap is just that. It's absurd political propaganda, and is either magnificently ignorant or anti-Semitic, one of the two.

I especially liked the part about how Ashkenazim (European Jews) "aren't really Jews" or that converts "aren't really Jews" either.

What a load of poisonous horse crap....

I didn't say they aren't Jews, I said they have no genealogical ties to the land. Also, how can you accuse me of racism for being against entitlement?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

Now this I agree with. Not to mention that the majority of "Jews" who live in Israel are secular (which is a contradictory term when applied to religion in my opinion) and not traditional Jews.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I didn't say they aren't Jews, I said they have no genealogical ties to the land. Also, how can you accuse me of racism for being against entitlement?

THEY HAVE JEWISH BLOOD AND HAVE ANCESTORS WHICH HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT OF THEIR LAND!

Sorry about the yelling but your going against what you aid earlier about the Basque

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

This is essentially like me kicking you out of your own house and locking you out after a period of years with you constantly trying to get in. Just because I have made it my home does not mean you have no right to your house.

No, it's not. None of the original people (to whom these homes belong) conquered by the Palestinians are alive to take their homes back, because it happened centuries ago. It would be more like if you kicked me out of my house 500 years ago and passed it down through your family, and out of nowhere my great-great-great, etc. grandchildren fell on hard times, then decided to kick your descendants out of the house in my name, even though I'm long dead and the house has been your family's residence for quite some time. Again, I refer you to post 23 and the example I posed there. Do I have more right to Navarre than the modern day Spaniards because my ancestors were conquered and removed from their land 800 years ago?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Oh, just for the sake of having someone publicly say it (and perhaps in a fit of masochism) I'll just go ahead and note that all this anti-Zionist claptrap is just that. It's absurd political propaganda, and is either magnificently ignorant or anti-Semitic, one of the two.

I especially liked the part about how Ashkenazim (European Jews) "aren't really Jews" or that converts "aren't really Jews" either.

What a load of poisonous horse crap....

Ani ohev otach!

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

THEY HAVE JEWISH BLOOD AND HAVE ANCESTORS WHICH HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT OF THEIR LAND!

Sorry about the yelling but your going against what you aid earlier about the Basque

Converts do???

 

[Sha'irullah]

Converts do???

You did not reference converts you said European Jew which may have implied converts but more then enough European Jews are Jewish by ethnicity

 

[Sha'irullah]

No, it's not. None of the original people (to whom these homes belong) conquered by the Palestinians are alive to take their homes back, because it happened centuries ago. It would be more like if you kicked me out of my house 500 years ago and passed it down through your family, and out of nowhere my great-great-great, etc. grandchildren fell on hard times, then decided to kick your descendants out of the house in my name, even though I'm long dead and the house has been your family's residence for quite some time. Again, I refer you to post 23 and the example I posed there. Do I have more right to Navarre than the modern day Spaniards because my ancestors were conquered and removed from their land 800 years ago?

Really? Then this would mean Filistinians have no right to the land still on a moral basis and would leave Jews without a country and on top of this you history is heavily off.

You are claiming ALL of Israel was Arab?

 

[Shermana]

If the Palestinians didn't start wars against Israel, they wouldn't lose land when they lost the wars they started. Pretty simple.

PS The "Palestine" map in 1946 doesn't refer to "Palestinian held land", it refers to British held land that was called "Palestine", in which Jews and Arabs alike were "Palestinians", do try not to be misled by such blatant mischaracterizations.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You did not reference converts you said European Jew which may have implied converts but more then enough European Jews are Jewish by ethnicity

I did reference converts in a later post, not in the OP. But my response to Levite was about converts. Also, how do you know all these European Jews have actual Israelite ancestry? Is it not possible that a large number are of European descent all the way back and were converted by someone of Israelite descent who moved to Europe a few generations before? Religion does have a tendency of spreading.

 

[Levite]

I didn't say they aren't Jews, I said they have no genealogical ties to the land.

First of all, that's not true. Many Ashkenazi Jews retain the same genetic markers shared by Mizrachi (Middle Eastern) Jews, which indicate common ancestry in the Ancient Near East.

But even when the genetics are different, it doesn't matter. Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity, with semi-permeable social boundaries. When a person converts to Judaism according to the Jewish laws of conversion, it is like being adopted into the family of Abraham and Sarah (in fact, converts, as their Hebrew names, always take their name followed by "son/daughter of Abraham and Sarah"). Just because a child is adopted doesn't mean they don't inherit their adoptive parents' estate.

So however one wishes to reckon genealogy, all the Jewish People have the right to call the Land of Israel their homeland and go and live there.

It is worth noting, by the way, that the majority Jewish populace of Israel is not Ashkenazi, and hasn't been for probably forty years or more....

Also, how can you accuse me of racism for being against entitlement?

I don't even know what you mean by this.

What I do know is that when someone comes along, says that Jews have no right to live in their ancestral homeland, and that their state is illegitimate, and was only gained by the pity of others after the Holocaust (which is 100% not what happened, by the way), and in the process of saying so, makes it clear that they don't even understand what Judaism is or how it works, I call that either ignorance or anti-Semitism.