Muffled
Jesus in me
Does Islam say this?: "Heaven, hell and the afterlife are all human speculations." i believe I have never seen any such statement in the Qu'ran.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Heaven Hell And Death
- Thread starter mickey1956
- Start date
Does Islam say this?: "Heaven, hell and the afterlife are all human speculations." i believe I have never seen any such statement in the Qu'ran.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Do you mean like these true teachings from Jesus--that are rejected by the world?
Matt 6: 33--Therefore, keep on seeking--FIRST-- the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness, and all the other things will be added. ( sustenance, covering, spirituality)
Blessed are the meek( mild tempered) for they( great multitude) will inherit the EARTH.
The Lords prayer--Hallowed be thy name( Jehovah)--in trinity translations--the last line--The KINGDOM--POWER--GLORY--all belong to the Father( Jehovah)
Jesus teaches he has a God-his Father--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- all his real teachers are in agreement with that--Paul--2Cor 1:3,1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28)1Peter 1:3--John at Rev 1:6
100% truth--Jesus has a God-Jehovah( psalm 83:18)
At John 17:1-6,26---Jesus clearly teaches--3) the one who sent him( Father)=THE ONLY TRUE GOD-- And one must know him and know Jesus to get eternal life. verse 6=Jehovah-26,=Jehovah.
And through his real teachers--Jesus promise is being kept.
And by stunning the Christian world for the last 135 years or so with new light coming at the proper time--to fulfill this-Daniel 12:4) corrections had to be made here in these last days. They have been--rejected because it wasn't taught before the last days--makes 0 sense.
And once one realizes its getting to the Father to do this( John 4:22-24) is the bottom line of it all--One must go through Jesus( not stop) and get to the Father( Jehovah)--This is the Fathers will-John 4:22-24)--Matt 7:21
I clearly see the only teachers on earth who have accomplished these things--I know for sure they get all of those teachings deep into each ones heart. Most refuse to believe what Jesus really taught.
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
That isn't true at all. There are many scriptures that refer to a spirit world, where both the righteous and the wicked go. Christ himself, during his three days of death went to the spirit world. Christ also taught a parable about two men who died and went to a spirit world, one sat with Abraham, and the other sat afar off, and betwixt them was an impassible gulf. Why did the Jews think that the boy was born blind from his own sin, if they didn't believe he existed as a spirit before he was born? Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus are used many many times in the original Greek and all refer to a spirit realm. John tells us that death and hell (hades) shall give up their dead for the resurrection. John believed in a Hades.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.…"
(1 Peter 3:18-20)
Last edited:
Jesus was so preoccupied with the new kingdom of God that he taught very little about the real world we live in. We know more the natural world from Charles Darwin than Jesus. There isn't much that Jesus taught that can be applied practically. His miracles are not replicable and his parables incoherent at best.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
HK, True! The new earth and kingdom of GOD is to endure for eternity. Jesus was teaching all that would hear to be a part of that kingdom. OR one could choose to be a part of that temporary world which Darwin described---one of the survival of the fittest---violence and death.
To the contrary, Jesus taught the principles of right living within this world while awaiting the reality of the future earth made new. The miracle of re-creation will be seen in the replication of that new earth and new heavens.
It is a sad commentary that mankind, as a whole, hasn't heeded those principles of right living.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Who says that if we accept Jesus as personal Lord and saviour then we are promised eternal life? Where'd you get that salvation method from?
As far as the soul dying, I think that it's possible eventually, not right away.
Luke 12:47-48 “The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. [48] But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Ross, those terms refer to where the deadare--NOT "living dead".. Those who are returning to the Dust from which the Creator GOD made mankind.
GOD gave the breath of life---and at the physical death of one, that gift of life is reclaimed by GOD. Only the righteous, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, will put on immortality(eternal life) and in-corruption--again, from GOD.
Death holds its victim's until the resurrection--just as Job was looking for to change that "corruption" which he foresaw as his time as dust.
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
That would be deceitful, as every Greek and Roman knew that these words referred to an actual realm where the dead enjoyed some kind of life. Nor does it explain the whole parable of Lazarus, unless Jesus was once again being deceitful. Nor does it explain how Jesus taught the gospel to the spirits of the dead; there is no point at all to teaching the gospel to their corpses. I respect the Jehovah's Witnesses, but on this topic they do not follow the Bible at all. They cherry pick one verse, which they misinterpret, while ignoring an entire parable, as well as the poignant statement that Jesus made to the thief on the cross. "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise." That sounds very different from "Today your body shall rot in the grave with me."
In terms of the earliest authentic Christian interpretations and Christian worldviews on the world of spirits I have to agree with those taking the position that the early Judeo-Christian interpretation was that when the body died and was interred, the cognisant spirit went to hades, which was a world of cognisant spirits where they awaited later resurrection and judgment.
The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt. ֵ For example, in early Christian literature, the spirit of Dymas (the thief promised paradise that rrosskopf referred to) is described in the decensus literature as ending up in this holding area while Jesus' spirit visits those in Hades to lead them out as his own body laid in the tomb.
Clear
νεσεακω
The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt. ֵ For example, in early Christian literature, the spirit of Dymas (the thief promised paradise that rrosskopf referred to) is described in the decensus literature as ending up in this holding area while Jesus' spirit visits those in Hades to lead them out as his own body laid in the tomb.
Clear
νεσεακω
Last edited:
sincerly
Well-Known Member
sincerly said: ↑
Ross, those terms refer to where the deadare--NOT "living dead"..
Ross,Those Greek and Romans died just as every human does.
The dead according to their beliefs were not the same as the Hebrew--who buried their dead out of their sight. As Job declared(not that he was Hebrew), but in the latter days he would be resurrected.Job.19:25-27, "
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
Job says his dust is still where "consumed".
GOD'S words can't be manipulated by "Greek, Roman, or any other person or "god".
Jesus, in John 5:28-29 said, "
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
The creator GOD said from the onset of sin one would return to the dust one was made from.
Jesus was never deceitful---HE spoke/taught the Truth--concerning the fate of both those who are disobedient and those who are obedient(which is HIS long-suffering plan--repent and live).
Jesus spoke in parables and the "Rich man and Lazarus" is one of those many Luke had placed together. The principles taught are there to see and understand.
Peter's recounting of those who for 120 years had the truth to keep them from their evil actions and fate was not taken to heart(awaiting the building of the Ark)., but perished.(Refused to repent).
It is time to put away false ideas and Believe GOD.
Yes, there will be a fiery end to arrogant and willfully disobedient people--their own choice.--it doesn't have to happen.
I'm not JW. Your misunderstanding is showing.(Right! The Rich man and Lazarus is a parable.)
However, "I say unto you today, you will be with me..." will not make Jesus a liar---either in the "day" or the resurrection.
Ross, those terms refer to where the deadare--NOT "living dead"..
Ross,Those Greek and Romans died just as every human does.
The dead according to their beliefs were not the same as the Hebrew--who buried their dead out of their sight. As Job declared(not that he was Hebrew), but in the latter days he would be resurrected.Job.19:25-27, "
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
Job says his dust is still where "consumed".
GOD'S words can't be manipulated by "Greek, Roman, or any other person or "god".
Jesus, in John 5:28-29 said, "
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
The creator GOD said from the onset of sin one would return to the dust one was made from.
Jesus was never deceitful---HE spoke/taught the Truth--concerning the fate of both those who are disobedient and those who are obedient(which is HIS long-suffering plan--repent and live).
Jesus spoke in parables and the "Rich man and Lazarus" is one of those many Luke had placed together. The principles taught are there to see and understand.
Peter's recounting of those who for 120 years had the truth to keep them from their evil actions and fate was not taken to heart(awaiting the building of the Ark)., but perished.(Refused to repent).
It is time to put away false ideas and Believe GOD.
Yes, there will be a fiery end to arrogant and willfully disobedient people--their own choice.--it doesn't have to happen.
I'm not JW. Your misunderstanding is showing.(Right! The Rich man and Lazarus is a parable.)
However, "I say unto you today, you will be with me..." will not make Jesus a liar---either in the "day" or the resurrection.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Clear, 2Thess. 2:3-4 has this to say about the coming on the scene prophesied ecclesiastical body which would hold sway as a main body until the last trumpet sounds.
"
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Rrosskopf
I have to vote with the ancient base models such as the LDS and the Catholics on this specific, historical base doctrine. I wish that the protestants had taken more of such doctrines with them when they split from the Roman-based Christian movement that had become the Roman Catholic Church.
Though the early judeo-christians describe the world of spirits (spirit world) differently than the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality. The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.
REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
Regarding your interesting example of Dymas, the thief on the cross and Jesus promise that Dymas would be in “paradise”, Perhaps I can make a specific point regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”
For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.
This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as a genre. But more on this later.
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the punishment of "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
I think that the catholic version of this early doctrine took on a bit different character partly because in some contexts, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts. I’ve liked the LDS version from a historical standpoint from the moment I discovered it.
THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES
For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
SPIRITS ARE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate,to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches holding to later religious theory, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : Quote:
"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
GOSPEL PRINCIPLES ARE TAUGHT TO THOSE PRESENT
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah, who is there with all other spirits of the dead said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
SONS OF SYMEON BELIEVE, CONVERT AND BECOME WITNESSES OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”
EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTUAL TRADITIONS AND WITNESSES THAT THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD IS NOT STATIC
There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, descriptive terms.
First, Perpetua relates : “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.
“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates : “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote:
“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.
However, my point in offering such descriptions is NOT to say that a specific modern or ancient description of “purgatory” is completely correct per se, but to offer support to the specific point that the doctrine of a world between death and resurrection/judgement itself was believed by the early Judao-Christians; that it was orthodox; and that the early christians who believed in such traditions would have interpreted scriptures inside this context of belief.
Clear
νενετωω
I have to vote with the ancient base models such as the LDS and the Catholics on this specific, historical base doctrine. I wish that the protestants had taken more of such doctrines with them when they split from the Roman-based Christian movement that had become the Roman Catholic Church.
Though the early judeo-christians describe the world of spirits (spirit world) differently than the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality. The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.
REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
Regarding your interesting example of Dymas, the thief on the cross and Jesus promise that Dymas would be in “paradise”, Perhaps I can make a specific point regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”
For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.
This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as a genre. But more on this later.
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the punishment of "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
I think that the catholic version of this early doctrine took on a bit different character partly because in some contexts, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts. I’ve liked the LDS version from a historical standpoint from the moment I discovered it.
THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES
For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
SPIRITS ARE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate,to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches holding to later religious theory, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : Quote:
"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
GOSPEL PRINCIPLES ARE TAUGHT TO THOSE PRESENT
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah, who is there with all other spirits of the dead said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
SONS OF SYMEON BELIEVE, CONVERT AND BECOME WITNESSES OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”
EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTUAL TRADITIONS AND WITNESSES THAT THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD IS NOT STATIC
There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, descriptive terms.
First, Perpetua relates : “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.
“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates : “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote:
“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.
However, my point in offering such descriptions is NOT to say that a specific modern or ancient description of “purgatory” is completely correct per se, but to offer support to the specific point that the doctrine of a world between death and resurrection/judgement itself was believed by the early Judao-Christians; that it was orthodox; and that the early christians who believed in such traditions would have interpreted scriptures inside this context of belief.
Clear
νενετωω
Last edited:
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
Christ was the first to be resurrected, the first to have his spirit reunited with his body. According to the Gospel of Peter, as he arose from the tomb, a loud voice was heard from the heavens.
"Hast thou preached unto them that sleep?"
Peter also taught this in 1 Peter, chapter 3:18-20
"...He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood."
Why did Jesus preach to the spirits of the dead?
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
(1 Peter 4:6)
sincerly
Well-Known Member
sincerly said: ↑
John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Jesus didn't preach to the physically dead. HE did preach to many who were "spiritually dead." That is still being done.
Let's look at the message of 1Pet.4:6,via Gen.6:3, " And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years".
Yes, the many years that the Ark was in building GOD was "striving"/ judging/pleading/contending with those antediluvians to repent.
It wasn't an after-the-fact-preaching, but as GOD has dealt with humans from the beginning--Be obedient--Repent.
Heb.4:2, speaks to the Gospel and the past actions as well.
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it".
Peter is acknowledging that the antediluvians are "dead"(presently--at that time) and refused to heed.
Shouldn't it be our covenant to obey?
Jesus said that Second resurrection was to be for "damnation" Or As The Creator said(Gen.3:19), "for dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return".
Of the wicked's fate, GOD makes it plain in Mal.4:1-3, "
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."
There is not a Repenting after physical death. "The dead know not anything".
"Death" is that 'gulf which can not be crossed'.
So as Peter admonished--"make your calling and election sure" while one has the ability to do so.
John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Jesus didn't preach to the physically dead. HE did preach to many who were "spiritually dead." That is still being done.
Let's look at the message of 1Pet.4:6,via Gen.6:3, " And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years".
Yes, the many years that the Ark was in building GOD was "striving"/ judging/pleading/contending with those antediluvians to repent.
It wasn't an after-the-fact-preaching, but as GOD has dealt with humans from the beginning--Be obedient--Repent.
Heb.4:2, speaks to the Gospel and the past actions as well.
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it".
Peter is acknowledging that the antediluvians are "dead"(presently--at that time) and refused to heed.
Shouldn't it be our covenant to obey?
Jesus said that Second resurrection was to be for "damnation" Or As The Creator said(Gen.3:19), "for dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return".
Of the wicked's fate, GOD makes it plain in Mal.4:1-3, "
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."
There is not a Repenting after physical death. "The dead know not anything".
"Death" is that 'gulf which can not be crossed'.
So as Peter admonished--"make your calling and election sure" while one has the ability to do so.
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
The scriptures don't support that viewpoint, and that has already been aptly demonstrated.
Those that died in the flood; were they physically dead? Did Jesus preach to them?
"So he went and preached to the spirits in prison, those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood."
(1 Peter 3:19)
psychoslice
Veteran Member
The wages of sin is what we get if we are not tuned to our true inner Self, its nothing to do with a hell after death, its all to do with our growth. Sin is simply being off the make, its believing we are the mind body organism, or the carnal self. But we are all pone in God, or Consciousness, take your pick. Religion has destroyed the beautiful true meaning of this truth, as they have with many other truths.
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
It is obvious that Peter is discussing events in chronological order, which puts more than a little doubt into your clumsy rendition.
1) Christ suffered for our sins (1 Peter 3:18)
2) He suffered physical death (1 Peter 3:18)
3) He continued as a spirit (1 Peter 3:18)
4) He preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19)
5) Christ was resurrected (1 Peter 3:21)
6) He is in heaven now (1 Peter 3:22)
sincerly
Well-Known Member
sincerly said: ↑
Jesus didn't preach to the physically dead.
Eccl..9:5-6, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun".
Ross, When "life" and "memory" ceases, preaching doesn't change things.
The Preaching that was done to those antediluvians was while they were alive and could have gotten aboard the Ark.
Jesus didn't preach to the physically dead.
Eccl..9:5-6, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun".
Ross, When "life" and "memory" ceases, preaching doesn't change things.
The Preaching that was done to those antediluvians was while they were alive and could have gotten aboard the Ark.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
1 Pet.3:18-20, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
Ross, Look at vs.17, "For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing."
In context, Peter was telling his audience that the example of the flood that Jesus is the "sinner's ARK." Jesus had/was fulfilling Isa.42:7 during HIS preaching/teaching ministry.(The message Jesus had sent to John the Baptist.)
Jesus was "quickened"/"made alive" by the Spirit.