Heaven Hell And Death

[Clear]

Rrosskopf said : Christ was the first to be resurrected, the first to have his spirit reunited with his body. According to the Gospel of Peter, as he arose from the tomb, a loud voice was heard from the heavens."Hast thou preached unto them that sleep?"

Peter also taught this in 1 Peter, chapter 3:18-20 "...He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood." (in post # 74)



Hi rrosskopf :

The first time I heard of a modern Christian movement that held to these earliest Christian interpretations (that I’ve covered in post # 74) I was astounded. I remember wondering if restorationists understood the value of the earliest Christian teachings and traditions.

I don’t remember any of the modern theories of interpretations such as Sincerely’s or any other of the modern interpretations that have any advantage over the earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines that have consistent representation in the early literature.

I think that the early concept of spirits of individuals in all generations of time, having a chance to hear gospel principles is one of those profoundly important base principles as it provides a model of base fairness and explains away arbitrariness of this specific principle as it relates to knowledge of Jesus and ability to accept him as a savior of all mankind in all ages of time.

As a restorationist, I think you understand the value of the earliest salvational base interpretations

Good journey rrosskopf.



Clear
ειτζφυειω

 

[sincerly]

Rrosskopf

I have to vote with the ancient base models such as the LDS and the Catholics on this specific, historical base doctrine. I wish that the protestants had taken more of such doctrines with them when they split from the Roman-based Christian movement that had become the Roman Catholic Church.

Clear, One may believe what-so-ever one pleases. but the Biblical Scriptures do not give those ideas of Heaven and hell as correct understandings of those places for the depository for the Dead persons who are residing in their "graves"--with no knowledge/cogitation concerning anything.

The early church fathers/mankind do no make GOD'S principles.
What GOD says to do and where dead bodies are bodies kept awaiting their specific resurrections is per GOD and not the doings of mankind.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Jesus didn't preach to the physically dead.

The scriptures don't support that viewpoint, and that has already been aptly demonstrated.

Those that died in the flood; were they physically dead? Did Jesus preach to them?

"So he went and preached to the spirits in prison, those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood."
(1 Peter 3:19)

Sinners as bound in the prison houses by being the deeds of the Laws. They are loosed from their bonds by Repentance and forgiveness---then living in submission to the Father's Will..

The Spirit by which Noah found grace, also, preached to those antediluvians ---only eight persons availed themselves of that believing, saving Grace.

NO! They were preached to while they were still alive.---before the flood came and caused their deaths.(GOD--patient waited).

 

[rrosskopf]

NO! They were preached to while they were still alive.---before the flood came and caused their deaths.

That just rehashes your false tradition without explaining the scripture at all. It clearly states that Jesus taught the spirits in prison,after he died. Don't you believe the Bible? Was Peter really such a bad writer that for no apparent reason he would interject a statement about the flood while rehearsing the life and death of Jesus? Why do people hold on so tightly to false traditions? Wouldn't it be easier to just believe the truth? The truth is that people pass around false traditions without even knowing that they are false. I have no doubt that many of the things that we believe, myself included, are false and we just don't know it.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
NO! They were preached to while they were still alive.---before the flood came and caused their deaths.

That just rehashes your false tradition without explaining the scripture at all. It clearly states that Jesus taught the spirits in prison,after he died. Don't you believe the Bible? Was Peter really such a bad writer that for no apparent reason he would interject a statement about the flood while rehearsing the life and death of Jesus? Why do people hold on so tightly to false traditions? Wouldn't it be easier to just believe the truth? The truth is that people pass around false traditions without even knowing that they are false. I have no doubt that many of the things that we believe, myself included, are false and we just don't know it.

Ross that is what you want those verses to say. Jesus said the "dead" would live again at their appointed Resurrections. Why are you so intent to get people into heaven before GOD has given the summons to Jesus Christ for their resurrection?? And to be brought to the wedding supper?
Yes, I believe the Bible and that the Serpent was lying when he contradicted GOD by saying , "Ye shall not surely die."

Why shouldn't Peter use examples from the patriarchs as Paul did?(1Cor.10:6, 11; Rom.15:14), "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

Wasn't that 2Peter's1:10 intent with "make your calling and election sure"--so one could correct false "beliefs"?

 

[Muffled]

Jesus promised a new world order the new kingdom of God to come with his second coming. That has not happened. So to most Christians they are living in the old sinful hell. To the more rational this is the only world we will ever know as explained by Darwin.

I believe this will happen.
I believe it has not happened yet.

I believe born again Christians are living in Christ.

I believe Darwin doesn't know much.

 

[rrosskopf]

Ross that is what you want those verses to say.

Shall we go through them word for word? I didn't write them.

Jesus said the "dead" would live again at their appointed Resurrections. Why are you so intent to get people into heaven before GOD has given the summons to Jesus Christ for their resurrection??

Death is the separation of body and spirit. Resurrection is the reuniting of body and spirit. Heaven doesn't come until after the final judgement, which takes place after the resurrection. Paradise or the Spirit World, is not heaven. It is a place where spirits await the resurrection. It is Sheol or hell, where all men go when they die. This is impossible to ferret out in the English, because four different words are translated as "hell". It is easier to understand in the Greek. Sheol or Hades is the Spirit World. Tartarus is the pit or spirit prison, which lies withing Hades. Gehemma is the place where the wicked are sent after the resurrection and final judgement.

 

[rrosskopf]

Why shouldn't Peter use examples from the patriarchs as Paul did?

When people write something, it is usually with some goal in mind, and not just wandering aimlessly from one subject to another. Translation becomes much easier when we consider the context or subject of the verse.

Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat.
1 Peter 3:18,19
What is the subject? Christ. He suffered the atonement. Through his righteousness and death, he bridged the gap that separates mankind from God. He died, but then lived as a spirit. Then he went and taught the spirits in prison. Who was in this prison? Those who died in the flood. What am I missing? How could he have been more plain?

 

[Clear]

In response to 29 examples in post # 73 from early Judeo-Christian historical texts describing the early Christian contextual belief in and description of cognisant spirits in hades, Sincerely replied : “ One may believe what-so-ever one pleases. but the Biblical Scriptures do not give those ideas of Heaven and hell as correct understandings of those places for the depository for the Dead persons who are residing in their "graves..."

Sincerely, the Christian movement and their teachings are a historical phenomenon. The early Christians offered many many early historical textual descriptions regarding the historical beliefs of the early Christian movement (which I have described in many, many textual examples in post # 73.) The fact that the beliefs of early christians are not the same as yours does NOT automatically mean that original or early christian beliefs were wrong and your modern theories are correct.

While you hold different beliefs and interpretations than the early Christians described, you've given us no data as to why your interpretation is more correct than the interpretation of those earliest Christians who lived in the earliest and most authentic age of the Christian movement.

If you think this historical conclusion is incorrect, why don’t you look in the earliest Christian literature, their Diaries, their psalms, their hymns, their mishnas, their personal letters, their sacred texts, etc. If you cannot find your interpretation in the earliest Christian literature, then your theory is simply not consistent with the earliest and most authentic Christian interpretation. Whether the early christians were correct or not is a different matter, still, they did believe that once the body died, the spirit left the body and resided in a world of spirits while awaiting resurrection and judgment as their descriptions in post #73 show.

If you think the early christians either were wrong in their beliefs, or they did not believe actually believe the textual testimonies they gave us, then give us some data to work with rather than simply claim the early Christians were wrong in their interpretation and you are right in your personal interpretation.


Clear
ειειδρτζω

 

[sincerly]

Shall we go through them word for word? I didn't write them.

Ross, it isn't single words that is the problem. That aggregate of words was put together by the Holy Spirit ---with a specific message.
I didn't write the biblical account/subjects either,---but that which the Creator GOD revealed concerning mankind true. HIS breath into man's nostrils gave "Life"/purpose/Being/person-hood/etc. to that "dust"; and an entity by which the Creator GOD could communicate and inter-act with on a personal level.

sincerly said: ↑
Jesus said the "dead" would live again at their appointed Resurrections. Why are you so intent to get people into heaven before GOD has given the summons to Jesus Christ for their resurrection??

Death is the separation of body and spirit.

Death separates the body from "life". Spiritual death comes about with separation from the Living Creator GOD by sin/disobedience.

Resurrection is the reuniting of body and spirit. Heaven doesn't come until after the final judgement, which takes place after the resurrection.

When Jesus calls the righteous from the graves where their bodies have undergone decomposition and gathers the righteous living at HIS coming, there will be a reuniting of the dust with the "eternal Life" which will be given at that time.
As Jesus taught in John 14,Jesus has been in HIS Father's house and is taking the redeemed back to those promised "mansions" for the 1000 years of activities. Then will be the destruction of the old heavens and earth and the making of the promised new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.

The final resurrection is the second resurrection(of the wicked) and it occurs 1000 years after the first occurred. And Yes, the judgement will end in the completion of the death of all evil doers as Revelations describes.

Paradise or the Spirit World, is not heaven. It is a place where spirits await the resurrection. It is Sheol or hell, where all men go when they die. This is impossible to ferret out in the English, because four different words are translated as "hell". It is easier to understand in the Greek. Sheol or Hades is the Spirit World. Tartarus is the pit or spirit prison, which lies withing Hades. Gehemma is the place where the wicked are sent after the resurrection and final judgement.

Paradise is mentioned three times in the KJV---twice by Jesus---in Luke with the thief and in Revelation 2 in regards to the overcoming and the eating from the Tree of life "in the midst of paradise."---that would be Heaven "or the earth made new".

The Greek="hades" and the Hebrew= "sheol" both mean---grave, hell, pit.
A place where the dead are placed.

Gehenna is a NT spelling translated "hell" and is a place where the refuse of the city of Jerusalem was "consumed"/destroyed(fire or worms".

Th Greek=tartarus was used one time and refers to the darkness that surrounded the material universe. 2Pet,2:4.(Those evil angels who are reserved for judgment.)

 

[rrosskopf]

Th Greek=tartarus was used one time and refers to the darkness that surrounded the material universe.

So then, you are suggesting that these angels were flesh and blood? Can you show me one place where it is obvious that Tartarus was used by the Greeks to represent the darkness that surrounds the material universe? Or are you suggesting that the apostles adopted the Greek terms, while completely ignoring the Greek definitions? That would be a deceptive practice to say the least. By what authority do you define Greek words to mean something entirely different than what the Greeks themselves understood?
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment." - 2 Peter 2:4

 

[Muffled]

Shall we go through them word for word? I didn't write them.

Death is the separation of body and spirit. Resurrection is the reuniting of body and spirit. Heaven doesn't come until after the final judgement, which takes place after the resurrection. Paradise or the Spirit World, is not heaven. It is a place where spirits await the resurrection. It is Sheol or hell, where all men go when they die. This is impossible to ferret out in the English, because four different words are translated as "hell". It is easier to understand in the Greek. Sheol or Hades is the Spirit World. Tartarus is the pit or spirit prison, which lies withing Hades. Gehemma is the place where the wicked are sent after the resurrection and final judgement.

I believe this is not necessarily so. There is spirit walking while the body sleeps and there are some spirits that never leave the body after it dies. I do believe the spiritual entity lives on after the death of the body.

I believe Heaven does not come. It is there and available now.

I believe there is no such thing as a spirit world but certainly Heaven is a paradise but maybe not the one Jesus was talking about.

I don't believe there is any evidence that there is such a place.

I beleive all bodies go into a grave of some kind even if it is an urn on the mantlepiece.

Hades is the Greek equivalent of Hel. Hell is commonly used to refer to the lake of fire even if it is a misnomer and Norse myth does not have an equivalent to Tartarus so Hel serves as a word for both.

 

[rrosskopf]

I believe there is no such thing as a spirit world but certainly Heaven is a paradise but maybe not the one Jesus was talking about.

I don't believe there is any evidence that there is such a place.

If you are Christian, then the Bible itself holds testimony that there is such a place, as I have already detailed. If you don't believe the scriptures, then all I can offer as evidence is the many life after death experiences that have been recorded. Typically, they see their dead or dying body, go through a tunnel, are met by some dead relative, get a chance to see the spirit world, and then are given the chance to stay or return. It is estimated that hundreds of thousands of people in the US have experienced a similar event, based on surveys. I remember reading about the case of a spanish-speaking women who died and came back. When she awoke, she insisted that the nurses look out the window of an upper story, and tell her if there was a red tennis shoe lying on the trim of the building. They went and looked, and there was a shoe, exactly as described, invisible from the ground.
One of the earliest cases of a life after death experience was of a Mormon Elder who died back in the late 1800's or early 1900's; he went to a spirit world where they told him it wasn't his time, and that he had to return. He was also told about two other church members, whom he knew, whose time had expired. They both died within two weeks. There has been a profusion of such books, and scientific studies have documented this other-worldly phenomenon.

 

[GreenKepi]

The wages of sin is death but the gift from God is eternal life. Romans 6:23. I believed for a long time on the theory of hell but through prayer and reading of the scriptures I believe God has revealed to me the truth. If we accept Jesus as personal Lord and saviour then we are promised eternal life but we reject him our body and soul will die.

Correct...Rev. 21:4 - doesn't say that crying, pain, etc...will only exist in the Lake of Fire or Hell. Jesus said... "All Pain" would stop! Eternal punishment is not the same thing as eternal "punishing"! Jesus Himself stated for us to fear the One who can destroy body and 'soul'....