I have issues with Islam

[Spiderman]

I would like to thank you so much for informing me that DIR sections of the forum are not for debate and apologize to you for not having learned that sooner. I will never start another thread such as this in any DIR section.

But, I feel it is important and healthy for me to start a thread where I voice my issues with and resentment of ANY Religion whenever it is used to trample the rights of others.

The Religion I have the least amount of issues with is the one that is responsible for the least amount of intolerance, bigotry, violence, and suffering in our world.

When I see Christians promoting bigotry, intolerance, hatred, or the torturing and disfiguring and executing of those who do not abide by their system of religion, it disgusts me no less than when it comes from Muslims and in fact disgusts me and shocks me that much more.

In our present modern world there is one Religion that stands out from the rest with the most violence and intolerance and complete disregard for the lives and feelings of those of different beliefs from it's members and that Religion is Islam.

The Scriptures say that you will know false prophets by their fruits. If Allah is most merciful (as he is referred to by Islam) than the fruit of his followers should be mercy!

I know what it is like to suffer and so do not wish it on others. My greatest issues with Religion are when it inflicts suffering on others and promotes intolerance, bigotry, violence, and war! I see no Religion that fuels more of this behavior than Islam and hence you know why I have my reservations about it.

I also have major issues with some of what Christ taught, but in our world I do not see Christianity oppressing people as I see Islam, not even close!

I do not see Christianity being a force in governments that call for the execution of people who do not obey Christian morality.

..and I see Christian holy wars and Crusades to be something from previous centuries.

what would we think if there was a big Vietnam war protest going on right now? it would seem ridiculous because America is not involved in the Vietnam War now. Likewise, I do not see any Crusades or inquisitions going on, so I am NOT protesting them.

however jihad is alive and well, and countless millions of lives are ruined as a result of Islamic laws and intolerant fanatic military Dictatorships being forced upon people in the name of Allah.

 

[Nooj]

The Scriptures say that you will know false prophets by their fruits. If Allah is most merciful (as he is referred to by Islam) than the fruit of his followers should be mercy!

i do not think many muslims are followers of the most merciful god they believe in.

just as i don't think many christians are followers of the god of love we believe in.

as christ said, wide is the gate that leads to destruction. and we're walking it.

you must look for the true believers - men and women who are certainly not among our likes - who are walking through the narrow gate. they are hard to find. not because they are so far away, in distant lands. but because they may look so plain that our eyes slide over them.

 

[Spiderman]

thank you nooj, you speak the truth and it is a breath of fresh air to hear you say so.

 

[Spiderman]

So where I started this thread before a Muslim boasted that Muslims follow God's law where Christians and Jews abandoned God's law to please atheists, humanists, feminists, and other "followers of Satan".

Oh...ok...and who decides what God's law is? A Muslim might say "the Koran decides", but this begs the question when the two warring parties agree that the Koran is the final authority yet disagree on the interpretation, where do we go?

The violent radical fanatics claim the Quaran backs them and they can back up their statements with the sacred text. The peaceful Muslims claim the Koran backs their statements. So the Koran has, since its existence lead countless of millions of those who read it to the opposite opinions because many verses in the Koran simply support the opposite belief!

So if a Muslim has no authority to say that he/she has the authentic interpetation of the Koran and can put each verse in it's proper context, then NO Muslim has the authority to cut a child's hand off, stone an adulterer or homosexual, or torture and execute someone for Heresy because of their interpretation of "God's Law".

Although I find Scriptures in the OT to be equally repulsive as the intolerance and violence promoted by the Koran, the Old Testament wasn't written 600 years after the death of Christ. But the main reason the Old Testament doesn't bother me as much is those laws were meant for a small nation of people many thousands of years ago, and you can question every Christian ordained pastor or priest in the world whether they believe we should stone Adulterers or Idolators and you will not even find even 1% of them that do. Way more than 99% of Christian leaders would tell you that to institute laws calling for or approving of the execution of someone for having consensual sex outside of marriage would be EXTREMELY wrong and unjust!

However, there are countless millions of people in the Islamic laws who are subject to such tyranny, intolerance, and cruelty, and those atrocities are happening to innocent people (including children) on a daily basis, publicly before the eyes many people, and it is done in the name of God and considered a praiseworthy and noble deed!

Should this not upset me me?

 

[Pastek]

NO Muslim has the authority to cut a child's hand off,

Who did ?

 

[Spiderman]

is there a point you are trying to make?

I'm saying it's wrong that anybody or any government should institute laws that call for the cutting off of somebody's hand because someone's interpretation of an ancient book preaches that it is God's will.

if I steal your cell phone from you I can replace it. if you cut off my hands that cannot be replaced and you leave me with a permanent disability and deformity. I find that to be extremely sad and inhumane

Who did ?

 

[gsa]

Although I find Scriptures in the OT to be equally repulsive as the intolerance and violence promoted by the Koran, the Old Testament wasn't written 600 years after the death of Christ. But the main reason the Old Testament doesn't bother me as much is those laws were meant for a small nation of people many thousands of years ago, and you can question every Christian ordained pastor or priest in the world whether they believe we should stone Adulterers or Idolators and you will not even find even 1% of them that do. Way more than 99% of Christian leaders would tell you that to institute laws calling for or approving of the execution of someone for having consensual sex outside of marriage would be EXTREMELY wrong and unjust!

However, there are countless millions of people in the Islamic laws who are subject to such tyranny, intolerance, and cruelty, and those atrocities are happening to innocent people (including children) on a daily basis, publicly before the eyes many people, and it is done in the name of God and considered a praiseworthy and noble deed!

Should this not upset me me?

Islamic extremism should upset you, but if you think that more than 99% of Christian leaders would tell you that executing homosexuals is "extremely wrong and unjust," you are mistaken. There are a number of Christians, in the United States and the global South, and in Europe and Eurasia and Asia, who support the execution of gay people. Trinity Broadcasting Network, hardly a fringe group in the Christian community, includes a show by Andrew Wommack who supported the anti-gay Uganda legislation. Although the death penalty provision was dropped, Wommack and his ministry came out in support of the earlier draft that supported capital punishment.

Christian extremism is not something that happened once in Europe, long ago. It exists today, and Christian fundamentalism remains a threat today. Certainly it is overshadowed, politically and numerically, by Islamic extremism, but do not be fooled: there are a number of Christian leaders that support capital punishment for consensual sex, heresy and other victimless "crimes."

 

[Quintessence]

Take care not to oversimplify a complex reality. Humans will always be doing things that other humans disagree with. The causes of human behaviors, as well as our responses to them, are complex. Beware of attempting to place blame, and ask yourself what this accomplishes. What does blaming an entire group, instead of individuals who are more directly responsible, accomplish?

 

[oldbadger]

Ah....... good!
You've opened the thread for all. Excellent!

I live in England.
2 years ago I took issue with the way in which some Muslim children can be subjected to educational pressures by parents and Muslim schools...... I learned that some parents pressure their children to learn the Koran by heart (hafiz) because if these children would succeed then their parents believe that they will gain a place in heaven automatically.

There are other issues in England, such as pressuring Muslim girls to marry strange partners, and the incidence of honour attacks and killings of Muslim women who refuse or seek freedom from such subjection is not uncommon here.

I get the feeling that Muslim priests do not do enough to guide their congregations away from such incidents. After serious incidents there are calls from the priesthood for order, and declarations that terrorism and crime will not be supported by the Muslim communities, but I do begin to wonder whether these are genuine.

One Muslim member on RF showed this once, during a discussion about an attack by Muslim Terrorists upon an oil refinery in an African desert. Local forces attacked the terrorists, and about thirty were killed, along with nearly all of the hostages. At this news the member made a post which read '30 Muslims gone to heaven'. or something similar to that.

This is my question......... how many Muslims discreetly jubilate when they hear of terrorist attacks, honour attacks on wayward females, bullying of slow school children?

 

[Spiderman]

what I'm saying is that I am deeply troubled by any system of religion that institutes laws that force an entire nation to treat people in such a cruel and inhumane way because it is the law of Almighty God according to some ancient texts.

I am venting my frustration because it makes me very sick and it is a problem in our world today that affects the lives of countless millions of people.

 

[outhouse]

Take care not to oversimplify a complex reality. Humans will always be doing things that other humans disagree with. The causes of human behaviors, as well as our responses to them, are complex. Beware of attempting to place blame, and ask yourself what this accomplishes. What does blaming an entire group, instead of individuals who are more directly responsible, accomplish?

Is this not just passing the buck, ignoring problems. The Japanese have a word that applies much better then your paragraph here.

Its called "Kaizen" roughly meaning "good change"


I hope you don't think there is no room for improvement here.

 

[Harikrish]

There is a reason God chose an illiterate Arab to be his prophet after he sent a carpenters son Jesus. The prophet Mohammed (pbuh) restored what was originally in the bible like multiple wives, stoning and death sentences for breaking
Gods commandments. In addition, the prophet was given 161 jihad verses to deal with infidels.
Christians and Jews should be very afraid because Islam is the fastest growing religion today.

 

[gsa]

what I'm saying is that I am deeply troubled by any system of religion that institutes laws that force an entire nation to treat people in such a cruel and inhumane way because it is the law of Almighty God according to some ancient texts.

I am venting my frustration because it makes me very sick and it is a problem in our world today that affects the lives of countless millions of people.

This is simply something that is an intrinsic danger with Abrahamic monotheism, if history is any guide. Whether your example is modern, ancient or medieval, these revealed religions made very specific claims about divine judgment, morality and the validity of punishment in the here and now.

Do I think that these decrees are the cause of the violence that we see? No. There are plenty of examples of tolerance in Islamic history; the current sectarian feuds have more to do with geopolitics than doctrine, as was the case with the Troubles. Theravada Buddhism is not known as inherently violent or even supportive of any violence, yet there are Buddhists monks blessing Sinhalese soldiers in Sri Lanka and telling them that their intention of preserving the nation will absolve them of karmic consequences for taking life. But some religions are more susceptible to violent interpretations, and there is ample justification for violence in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic scriptures.

 

[Spiderman]

yes Christian extremism also makes me very ill when I see it.
(In response to an earlier post)

 

[nazz]

I would like to thank you so much for informing me that DIR sections of the forum are not for debate and apologize to you for not having learned that sooner. I will never start another thread such as this in any DIR section.

But, I feel it is important and healthy for me to start a thread where I voice my issues with and resentment of ANY Religion whenever it is used to trample the rights of others.

The Religion I have the least amount of issues with is the one that is responsible for the least amount of intolerance, bigotry, violence, and suffering in our world.

When I see Christians promoting bigotry, intolerance, hatred, or the torturing and disfiguring and executing of those who do not abide by their system of religion, it disgusts me no less than when it comes from Muslims and in fact disgusts me and shocks me that much more.

In our present modern world there is one Religion that stands out from the rest with the most violence and intolerance and complete disregard for the lives and feelings of those of different beliefs from it's members and that Religion is Islam.

The Scriptures say that you will know false prophets by their fruits. If Allah is most merciful (as he is referred to by Islam) than the fruit of his followers should be mercy!

I know what it is like to suffer and so do not wish it on others. My greatest issues with Religion are when it inflicts suffering on others and promotes intolerance, bigotry, violence, and war! I see no Religion that fuels more of this behavior than Islam and hence you know why I have my reservations about it.

I also have major issues with some of what Christ taught, but in our world I do not see Christianity oppressing people as I see Islam, not even close!

I do not see Christianity being a force in governments that call for the execution of people who do not obey Christian morality.

..and I see Christian holy wars and Crusades to be something from previous centuries.

what would we think if there was a big Vietnam war protest going on right now? it would seem ridiculous because America is not involved in the Vietnam War now. Likewise, I do not see any Crusades or inquisitions going on, so I am NOT protesting them.

however jihad is alive and well, and countless millions of lives are ruined as a result of Islamic laws and intolerant fanatic military Dictatorships being forced upon people in the name of Allah.

The fact that you ignored my earlier attempts to correct you does not encourage me to continue with you.

 

[Sakeenah]

So where I started this thread before a Muslim boasted that Muslims follow God's law where Christians and Jews abandoned God's law to please atheists, humanists, feminists, and other "followers of Satan".

Oh...ok...and who decides what God's law is? A Muslim might say "the Koran decides", but this begs the question when the two warring parties agree that the Koran is the final authority yet disagree on the interpretation, where do we go?

The violent radical fanatics claim the Quaran backs them and they can back up their statements with the sacred text. The peaceful Muslims claim the Koran backs their statements. So the Koran has, since its existence lead countless of millions of those who read it to the opposite opinions because many verses in the Koran simply support the opposite belief!

So if a Muslim has no authority to say that he/she has the authentic interpetation of the Koran and can put each verse in it's proper context, then NO Muslim has the authority to cut a child's hand off, stone an adulterer or homosexual, or torture and execute someone for Heresy because of their interpretation of "God's Law".

Although I find Scriptures in the OT to be equally repulsive as the intolerance and violence promoted by the Koran, the Old Testament wasn't written 600 years after the death of Christ. But the main reason the Old Testament doesn't bother me as much is those laws were meant for a small nation of people many thousands of years ago, and you can question every Christian ordained pastor or priest in the world whether they believe we should stone Adulterers or Idolators and you will not even find even 1% of them that do. Way more than 99% of Christian leaders would tell you that to institute laws calling for or approving of the execution of someone for having consensual sex outside of marriage would be EXTREMELY wrong and unjust!

However, there are countless millions of people in the Islamic laws who are subject to such tyranny, intolerance, and cruelty, and those atrocities are happening to innocent people (including children) on a daily basis, publicly before the eyes many people, and it is done in the name of God and considered a praiseworthy and noble deed!

Should this not upset me me?

A lot of what you are saying was discussed in the other thread so maybe you can re read those posts...instead of repeating the same thing. ..but if you want I'll copy and paste my post from the other thread for the sake of keeping this discussion going

 

[FearGod]

A lot of what you are saying was discussed in the other thread so maybe you can re read those posts...instead of repeating the same thing. ..but if you want I'll copy and paste my post from the other thread for the sake of keeping this discussion going

I don't think he's willing to understand anything other than showing Islam as an awful religion.

 

[Midnight Rain]

..and I see Christian holy wars and Crusades to be something from previous centuries.

what would we think if there was a big Vietnam war protest going on right now? it would seem ridiculous because America is not involved in the Vietnam War now. Likewise, I do not see any Crusades or inquisitions going on, so I am NOT protesting them.

The US as a country learned from its mistakes (well until recent history). Has Christianity learned from its mistakes? And what of all of the current harm it is doing?

 

[Quintessence]

what I'm saying is that I am deeply troubled by any system of religion that institutes laws that force an entire nation to treat people in such a cruel and inhumane way because it is the law of Almighty God according to some ancient texts.

I am venting my frustration because it makes me very sick and it is a problem in our world today that affects the lives of countless millions of people.

That is entirely fair and understandable I simply suggest that blame games be played with great caution. If nothing else, it is wise to remember that problems exist because we say they do. We call something a problem when it disagrees with how we think reality ought to be. It's a value judgement. And as problem statements are value judgements, it is good to be aware of our own values, and how that is shaping the map we draw of the territory of reality.

I tend to be very leery of drawing maps that see problems in groups of people as opposed to individuals. I feel this way because groups of people are never homogenous, and blaming groups easily risks intolerance where it is not warranted. Some intolerance is unavoidable, but I like to ask myself: what does blaming this group accomplish? Is it in keeping with the character I aim to hold myself to, or does it do me dishonor? Usually all blame games accomplish is finding people to hate. That's toxic, and it's not useful. I do not like to I allow myself to fester in such toxicity, as it does little but make me unhappy, make me seem a bigot in the eyes of others, and compromise my ability to treat all others with dignity and respect.

But for you it could easily be different. Your honor and virtue is not mine, and it is your own affair to maintain your own honor. If it is in keeping with your values to blame an entire group of people for some of humanity's ills, then do so. There will be people who disagree with you no matter what you decide to uphold. It is you who will have to live with the consequences of your choices more than anyone else. Be sure you're comfortable with the attitudes you hold and the virtues you aspire to. You're allowed to change your mind later if you're not.

 

[outhouse]

. it is wise to remember that problems exist because we say they do.

I could never find that to be true or correct or even logical in any sense, I would not even call that philosophical.

So Hitler was only a problem because we said he was a problem?

Or was he a problem because of his own actions that killed millions?

It's a value judgement.

So is right and wrong, but the lines dividing the two are pretty clear, are they not?