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I have issues with Islam

outhouse

Atheistically
I tend to be very leery of drawing maps that see problems in groups of people as opposed to individuals. I feel this way because groups of people are never homogenous, and blaming groups easily risks intolerance where it is not warranted.

But what if it is warranted?

Example. 1 + 1 = 2 is it not a problem when the whole group is forced to say that by faith alone the answer is 37.3 no matter how patient one explains the factual answer is 2 ???????????????

Is that not a credible example of fanaticism and fundamentalism ?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
="outhouse, post: 4097412, member: 25877"]But what if it is warranted?

Example. 1 + 1 = 2 is it not a problem when the whole group is forced to say that by faith alone the answer is 37.3 no matter how patient one explains the factual answer is 2 ???????????????

Is that not a credible example of fanaticism and fundamentalism ?
Naturally Yes! :)
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I could never find that to be true or correct or even logical in any sense, I would not even call that philosophical.

So Hitler was only a problem because we said he was a problem?

Or was he a problem because of his own actions that killed millions?

Why not Christianity was the main problem and not Hitler, why not Germany ?
Why not his followers ? endless of whys for which one you want him to be causing the problem or being the problem himself.


So is right and wrong, but the lines dividing the two are pretty clear, are they not?

What right to you is wrong to some others, for example it is right for you to eat beef whereas it is wrong for the Hindus.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
But what if it is warranted?

Example. 1 + 1 = 2 is it not a problem when the whole group is forced to say that by faith alone the answer is 37.3 no matter how patient one explains the factual answer is 2 ???????????????

Is that not a credible example of fanaticism and fundamentalism ?

No one denies the facts such as the silly example that you gave, but when you say that you're the only one right and the others are wrong then you should bring a tangible evidence that you're right, you have faith that there's no God and if you're sure that he doesn't exist then prove it similar to the way you did with 1+1 = 2 otherwise keep the others have their own faith as you do.
 
Christians and Jews should be very afraid because Islam is the fastest growing religion today.

Maybe based on birthrates, probably not based on conversion/apostasy ratio. Excessive birthrates are unlikely to help Muslim countries develop their relative power status in the world, might well lead to increasing civil unrest but unlikely to prove much of an existensial threat to Christians and Jews outside the Muslim world. Birthrates in Western countries will make very little difference to demographics over the next few decades either.

It's nothing for Western people to lose much sleep over anyway. Don't panic...

I get the feeling that Muslim priests do not do enough to guide their congregations away from such incidents. After serious incidents there are calls from the priesthood for order, and declarations that terrorism and crime will not be supported by the Muslim communities, but I do begin to wonder whether these are genuine.

This is my question......... how many Muslims discreetly jubilate when they hear of terrorist attacks

Plenty of Muslims do it openly. The majority of those who condemn it though, actually mean it. Muslims seem to be treated like Jews in the past, having some secret hidden agenda. Now people have forgotten about the Jews 'trying to take over the world' (good PR for them :wink:). Many people always assume that Muslims lie at every available opportunity through nefarious intent. It's quite ridiculous when people who know very little about Islam and probably know very few Muslims say that most Muslims routinely practice 'taqqiya' to help defeat the kufr.

Western politicians don't do a great deal to 'guide their congregations' away from foreign military adventures anyway.

what I'm saying is that I am deeply troubled by any system of religion that institutes laws that force an entire nation to treat people in such a cruel and inhumane way because it is the law of Almighty God according to some ancient texts.

I am venting my frustration because it makes me very sick and it is a problem in our world today that affects the lives of countless millions of people.

There are many horrific crimes carried out in the name of Islam, there is no point in saying it is not 'real Islam', because there is no such thing. Religion only exists as people practice it, it is only subjective, never pure or 'real'. But, it is also important to remember that the vast majority of Muslims also find these actions reprehensible and that you don't hold people collectively responsible for actions that have nothing to do with them.

It is also important to remember that a former VP of America publicly and without shame recently implicitly justified murder, anal rape and sexual assault of prisoners and got a fair deal of support for his words. The current president certainly didn't express his horror and disgust at someone supporting these actions. Western countries in the name of democratic progress have justified futile wars that killed hundreds of thousands and provided the bedrock for much of the behaviour they now criticise. The people who justify these actions do so from a perceived moral high ground and make complex apologetics about how it was justified and beneficial to those who were worst affected, even if they don't quite appreciate it now.

Look how many people have been killed directly or indirectly as a result of a militaristic doctrine of democratic interventionism. It is right to criticise Islamic extremism, but if you hold Muslims collectively responsible, then expect to be held collectively responsible by others for crimes you had nothing to do with.

As Jesus said 'lest he who is without sin...'
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
One Muslim member on RF showed this once, during a discussion about an attack by Muslim Terrorists upon an oil refinery in an African desert. Local forces attacked the terrorists, and about thirty were killed, along with nearly all of the hostages. At this news the member made a post which read '30 Muslims gone to heaven'. or something similar to that.
?

Hello oldbadger ,

i feel that you make me looks as defender of Terrorists ? by mention to me and my old thread !!!! well done :clapping:

If you don't read all my replies in that thread , or understand the sense of that thread , that would be problem if you ignore that i was mocked/satire the terrorists belief/wish , when i said "that Algerian Army sent terrorists to heaven" !!!! .

you claim that all the hostages has been killed,No not all the hostages killed , so you wrong

If you allowed me, i will post here our discuss in that thread (between you and me), and make the people know the truth ? i will refresh your memory .

because , this is not good action come from you .you made me looks as defender of terrorists ; by " just one mock sentence" and you neglege all my thread sense " !!!

Damn it , i am lucky that i check this thread
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Although this cannot compare to millions murdered by people who do so without following the tenets of their faith, Christianity today has it's full flares. It has denied rights to Americans such as marriage equality (it claims the word marriage is a Christian word and the government is slowly allowing for marriages to happen without bias to religious choice in federal point of view); military rights; businesses are shut down (in my area, I see) because the business products are against Church morals even though the Church has no reason to impose it's morals on others (unless it takes lives, like abortion).

Many fundamental Christians have a "do not throw pearls among swine" rule so that their mannors of sharing understanding with people who differ in their faith is void; and their being asked to respect people leads to their misunderstanding that they are asking to accept instead.

People are being murdered for who they are via their sexual identity. The federal government is still a Christian values (though its hard to see) and has some Catholic values that go unnoticed unless you are at the capital house floor etc.

In chat rooms, though small, people are ignored all the time because Christians disagree with their faith and shove them to the side as if they have claims to the truth.

Murder happens in many ways, not just by the sword.



I would like to thank you so much for informing me that DIR sections of the forum are not for debate and apologize to you for not having learned that sooner. I will never start another thread such as this in any DIR section.

But, I feel it is important and healthy for me to start a thread where I voice my issues with and resentment of ANY Religion whenever it is used to trample the rights of others.

The Religion I have the least amount of issues with is the one that is responsible for the least amount of intolerance, bigotry, violence, and suffering in our world.

When I see Christians promoting bigotry, intolerance, hatred, or the torturing and disfiguring and executing of those who do not abide by their system of religion, it disgusts me no less than when it comes from Muslims and in fact disgusts me and shocks me that much more.

In our present modern world there is one Religion that stands out from the rest with the most violence and intolerance and complete disregard for the lives and feelings of those of different beliefs from it's members and that Religion is Islam.

The Scriptures say that you will know false prophets by their fruits. If Allah is most merciful (as he is referred to by Islam) than the fruit of his followers should be mercy!

I know what it is like to suffer and so do not wish it on others. My greatest issues with Religion are when it inflicts suffering on others and promotes intolerance, bigotry, violence, and war! I see no Religion that fuels more of this behavior than Islam and hence you know why I have my reservations about it.

I also have major issues with some of what Christ taught, but in our world I do not see Christianity oppressing people as I see Islam, not even close!

I do not see Christianity being a force in governments that call for the execution of people who do not obey Christian morality.


..and I see Christian holy wars and Crusades to be something from previous centuries.

what would we think if there was a big Vietnam war protest going on right now? it would seem ridiculous because America is not involved in the Vietnam War now. Likewise, I do not see any Crusades or inquisitions going on, so I am NOT protesting them.

however jihad is alive and well, and countless millions of lives are ruined as a result of Islamic laws and intolerant fanatic military Dictatorships being forced upon people in the name of Allah.
 
Although I find Scriptures in the OT to be equally repulsive as the intolerance and violence promoted by the Koran, the Old Testament wasn't written 600 years after the death of Christ. But the main reason the Old Testament doesn't bother me as much is those laws were meant for a small nation of people many thousands of years ago, and you can question every Christian ordained pastor or priest in the world whether they believe we should stone Adulterers or Idolators and you will not even find even 1% of them that do

hi man,

i think it's simpler than your thoughts, yes there are a lot of violent muslims who really bothering the world.
let's take ISIS as a pure and massive example for that, how much are the members of ISIS? i think it won't be more than 200,000, it's about than 1 to 10,000 of total muslim population, but as those 200,000 went too violent, they affect the reputation of the whole religion
that's just my opinion and how i do see it
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello oldbadger ,

i feel that you make me as defender of Terrorists ? by mention to me and my old thread !!!!

If you don't read all my replies in that thread , or understand the sense of that thread , that would be problem if you ignore that i was mocked/satire the terrorists belief/wish , when i said "that Algerian Army sent terrorists to heaven" !!!! .

you claim that all the hostages has been killed,No not all the hostages killed , so you wrong

If you allowed me, i will post here our discuss in that thread (between you and me), and make the people know the truth ? i will refresh your memory .

because , this is not good action come from you .you made me looks as defender of terrorists ; by " just one mock sentence" and you neglege all my thread sense " !!!

Damn it , i am lucky that i check this thread

You were not named.
Why should I trust your word?

What I seek to understand is this:-
at early lunchtime on Tuesday 11th September 2001 I wandered out into Chatham High Street to get a sandwich. Groups of men were chanting and jubilating in the road. I walked towards my fast-food shop and passed by an electrical store. A small crowd watched television displays. As I watched a man started to explain to such as me what had happened. Another group of chanting persons came past us........ the same man said, 'They're Moslems!' (his pronunciation). Yes..... they were..........

Now I am wondering how many Muslims discreetly rejoice when things like this happen.... ? I am not alone. Lots of English people seem to feel the same as me, that not enough senior Muslim clerics are speaking out loud enough against bad stuff....... like honour attacks, failing to teach kids within the national teaching curriculum, terrorist attempts, terrorist attacks and more.
Not good......
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
You were not named.
Why should I trust your word?

...
EDITED .
I know you did not name me , but you accuatly mention to me and my thread .

I am the only RF Muslims member who created thread about sahara attack ,and you chat with in that thread and i am who said "they sent to heaven" .

if you let me post our discuss in that thread, you will trust me .
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
EDITED .
I know you did not name me , but you accuatly mention to me and my thread .

I am the only RF Muslims member who created thread about sahara attack ,and you chat with in that thread and i am who said "they sent to heaven" .

if you let me post our discuss in that thread, you will trust me .

You just don't get it, do you?
Whether your mention was genuine, or just disgusting bad taste is of no interest to me.

I am interested in the fact that on Thursday morning 7th July 2005 my daughter was walking down towards Russell Square in London when an Islamic terrorist blew up the bus 50 odd meters behind her. She felt the blast!

About 40-50 innocents died that morning in that and other attacks. I don't think that senior Muslim priests are loud enough in condemning the bad stuff that extremist Muslims have been and are carrying out, here and all over the World.
Not good enough. Not enough reassurance. Not enough guidance for their own followers imo.
Why not?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
You just don't get it, do you?
Whether your mention was genuine, or just disgusting bad taste is of no interest to me.

I am interested in the fact that on Thursday morning 7th July 2005 my daughter was walking down towards Russell Square in London when an Islamic terrorist blew up the bus 50 odd meters behind her. She felt the blast!

About 40-50 innocents died that morning in that and other attacks. I don't think that senior Muslim priests are loud enough in condemning the bad stuff that extremist Muslims have been and are carrying out, here and all over the World.
Not good enough. Not enough reassurance. Not enough guidance for their own followers imo.
Why not?
I get it ,so , you try to change the subject ? by telling stories about 911 and London terrorist attack ?

just for refresh your memory , is not this thread that you mentioned by your reply :
Algeria never negotiate the terroristes , agree with that ? | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com

oldbadger said:
One Muslim member on RF showed this once, during a discussion about an attack by Muslim Terrorists upon an oil refinery in an African desert. Local forces attacked the terrorists, and about thirty were killed, along with nearly all of the hostages. At this news the member made a post which read '30 Muslims gone to heaven'. or something similar to that.
?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Plenty of Muslims do it openly. The majority of those who condemn it though, actually mean it.
And how would you know this......?
Muslims seem to be treated like Jews in the past, having some secret hidden agenda. Now people have forgotten about the Jews 'trying to take over the world' (good PR for them :wink:).
.....what is this...?
Many people always assume that Muslims lie at every available opportunity through nefarious intent. It's quite ridiculous when people who know very little about Islam and probably know very few Muslims say that most Muslims routinely practice 'taqqiya' to help defeat the kufr.
....... this is a massive generalization, yes?
How do you know what most people think?
I am talking about 'not enough done by high ranking Muslim priests'

Western politicians don't do a great deal to 'guide their congregations' away from foreign military adventures anyway.
Ah...... let me get this right......... so, because of our politicians it's ok to blow up innocents in London streets....? Is that your point?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I get it ,so , you try to change the subject ? by telling stories about 911 and London terrorist attack ?

just for refresh your memory , is not this thread that you mentioned by your reply :
Algeria never negotiate the terroristes , agree with that ? | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com

Ha! I spoke of my experience in Chatham High st before you even posted! Your usual distractions and diversions cannot help.

I want to know why so few Muslim senior Clerics speak out against the bad stuff, killings, honour attacks, bad schooling, attempted terrorism and successfull terrorism in my country.

Perhaps you might like to speak out against Islamic terrorists here? ..... and honour attacks?.......... ??
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I could never find that to be true or correct or even logical in any sense, I would not even call that philosophical.

So Hitler was only a problem because we said he was a problem?

Or was he a problem because of his own actions that killed millions?

It's curious that the most important parts of that post I made were ignored and things said were taken out of context.

If you read the rest of the context of that paragraph instead of taking a small part of it out of context, you'll find I already answered both of these questions.


So is right and wrong, but the lines dividing the two are pretty clear, are they not?

In a sense. If your map contains that sort of thing, it may be set up in a more or less black and white fashion if one chooses to map the territory like that. That is, however, a choice made by the map maker. Further, that a map is cleanly drawn and intelligible to one person does not make it intelligible to another, much less negate the fact that it is a map, not the territory.

But what if it is warranted?

Example. 1 + 1 = 2 is it not a problem when the whole group is forced to say that by faith alone the answer is 37.3 no matter how patient one explains the factual answer is 2 ???????????????

Is that not a credible example of fanaticism and fundamentalism ?

I also addressed this in what I posted before. I don't feel the need to rehash what I wrote earlier. Read the rest of that paragraph. And especially the one after it.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Ha! I spoke of my experience in Chatham High st before you even posted! Your usual distractions and diversions cannot help.

I want to know why so few Muslim senior Clerics speak out against the bad stuff, killings, honour attacks, bad schooling, attempted terrorism and successfull terrorism in my country.

Perhaps you might like to speak out against Islamic terrorists here? ..... and honour attacks?.......... ??

NO, you did not spoke in that reply about experience in Chatham High...etc , i don't care
you spoke about our discuss in my old thread:

this is your new reply in this thread:
One Muslim member on RF showed this once
during a discussion about an attack by Muslim Terrorists upon an oil refinery in an African desert. Local forces attacked the terrorists, and about thirty were killed, along with nearly all of the hostages. At this news the member made a post which read '30 Muslims gone to heaven'. or something similar to that.
don't you match about your new reply and your old replies in my thread ?

your old replies is here :
Algeria never negotiate the terroristes , agree with that ? | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com

so i am said in my thread "30 Muslims gone to heaven" or similar to that !!!

this is not good action and bad statement to misquote my thread message and it's sense , to lie about me .

everybody here knew my opinions about terrorist and ISIS...etc
 
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Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
You just don't get it, do you?
Whether your mention was genuine, or just disgusting bad taste is of no interest to me.

I am interested in the fact that on Thursday morning 7th July 2005 my daughter was walking down towards Russell Square in London when an Islamic terrorist blew up the bus 50 odd meters behind her. She felt the blast!

About 40-50 innocents died that morning in that and other attacks. I don't think that senior Muslim priests are loud enough in condemning the bad stuff that extremist Muslims have been and are carrying out, here and all over the World.
Not good enough. Not enough reassurance. Not enough guidance for their own followers imo.
Why not?

This is something non Muslim do not seem to understand.

I don't think that senior Muslim priests are loud enough in condemning the bad stuff that extremist Muslims have been and are carrying out, here and all over the World.

We have no ordained clery. there is no religious hierarchy. Every Muslim is considered equal and we all are "clergy" none of us speak for anyone except our self. We have no living "Religious Authority" that tells us what to do or believe. There is no such thing as "Senior Muslim Priests", we have no priesthood.

Now as to if Muslims speak out against those who do evil. There is no shortage. world wide Muslims condemn those who do evil in the name of Islam a few examples:

Edmonton Muslims rally to condemn violent radicals | Edmonton | News | Edmonton

The American Muslim (TAM)

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism – Charles Kurzman

Central Jersey Muslim groups condemn Islamic extremism | Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA)

Shiites, Sunnis unite to denounce and condemn extremists - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Muslims and Scholars Condemn ISIS for Betraying Religion of 'Mercy' and 'Compassion' | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community

Georgia Muslims Condemn Extremist Violence by ISIS, Boko Haram
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
is there a point you are trying to make?

I'm saying it's wrong that anybody or any government should institute laws that call for the cutting off of somebody's hand because someone's interpretation of an ancient book preaches that it is God's will.

if I steal your cell phone from you I can replace it. if you cut off my hands that cannot be replaced and you leave me with a permanent disability and deformity. I find that to be extremely sad and inhumane

I thought you said somebody cut off the hand of a child in a muslim country. It was just a question.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
But what if it is warranted?

Example. 1 + 1 = 2 is it not a problem when the whole group is forced to say that by faith alone the answer is 37.3 no matter how patient one explains the factual answer is 2 ???????????????

Is that not a credible example of fanaticism and fundamentalism ?
i am not sure if you are the only one who used math sciene to explain his disagree opinion everytime :p
1+1 = 2 whatever your faith said

if i am instread of you i will make it my signature:thumbsup:

just kiding outhouse :)

how about 1+1+1=1 ?
 
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