I have issues with Islam

[Woodrow LI]

Ho ho!
And so Shia Muslim leaders are in a position to guide their followers away from the bad stuff that I have already mentioned.

As for your group, which I guess is Sunni, please just confirm that nobody in your religion, NOBODY, is in any position to influence any of your followers at all, in any matters, or in any actions. You see, I don't trust you now, because you have begun to slide down the slippery slopes of INTELLECTUAL OBSTRUCTION. To my call of 'who can guide Muslims away from bad practices, crimes, murder and terrorism?', your answer has attempted to reply...... 'Nobody'..... and I do not believe you.

I can only speak for myself and of what I personally experience.
I have yet to even meet a full time Imam. Every Mosque I have been in for the past ten years, I was the oldest person present and requested to serve as Imam.
If there is any such thing as a central leader for Islam, I have not heard of who it is or know his name.

The only Shi'ite I know in person is my oldest daughter and I disagree with her following an Ayatollah. I have not seen her for almost 10 years now as she disagrees with me not following Shi'ite.

My other 2 children and Grandchildren are Sunni and agree with me. My youngest daughter and her husband live in Pakistan the other 2 older children live in Texas and Louisiana, The Shi'ite daughter lives in Texas.

Currently I live in a very rural area of North Dakota. very far from any permanent Mosque. I do not believe there are any Imams in the entire state and we simply take turns being the Imam at the small Mosques I find. I began building a Mosque but ran out of money before I finished it. Still hope to finish it one day, I know about 20 Muslims and we would like to one day have a permanent Mosque. In the mean time when we meet for prayers we simply call the house we meet at a Mosque.

 

[Godobeyer]

Oh yes there is.....
When groups have attempted to enforce Sharia law in English suburbs, there has very definitely been a presence of influence driving these actions.

Oh yes there is........ There are Muslims who are exceedingly influential, and who can give strong guidance to Muslim communities. And they do not speak out loudly enough against terrorism in our communities.


..... then let's hear Influential Muslims calling this out loud for all to hear, clearly.

accautly there is speak out "by arabic" against terrorism , that message in TV , you would not understand it .

and there is Muslims fighting ISIS in the ground (Syrian Army and Iraqi Army and Kurds ,most are Muslims armies) , they give their lives .

so there is actions on the ground (fighting) and by media (ideology) , you completely ignore

 

[oldbadger]

... and we can see the beautiful history of Christianity very clearly when we read about the Crusades, Inquisition, and even modern-day Christian persecution of minorities like homosexuals.

No........ Not Christians.
Well, not Protestant Christians. We protested aboput all that...... and we now support same-sex marriage and sexual equality, all under Protestant Christian church.

Excuse me....... it's alright....... I'm just practising Intellectual Obstruction, a handy tool to use when folks need to duck and dive.

 

[FearGod]

My friend-.
Search the history a islam
And look at Christian history a bit, and you will know the difference
Looking atthe teachings ofJesus
And look at the teachings of Muhammad
And you will know the difference between them
The Quran is notthewordloveone
Whilethe Gospelislovelyrics
Mohammedmarrieda girl
WhileJesussaidthe most beautifulwordforchildren
Paradise Mohammad is sex and nudity free
While the Kingdom of Christ is the serenity and peace
Christianlove
WhileIslamspreadshate

I searched for how awful the Islamic history was and i found this terrible fact.

 

[Augustus]

So you do believe that our civilians have deserved to suffer terrorism in their own streets, homes shop, etc..... You refer me back to violence committed in my name.

Pretty sure you can easily infer from my comments that I do not support such actions. Was just pointing out that you presumably don't feel the need to incessantly speak out against your tax money facilitating anal rape, carrying out illegal wars, destroying entire countries, even though you are technically more responsible for these actions that the average Muslim is for terrorism.

I just think you are holding the Muslim community to standards which you do not hold yourself to.

Do you support the right of women to go to school?

Yes, as do almost all Muslims.

Do you condemn the murders of schoolteachers and children in Pakistan schools ..... carried out in anger because a young girl was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for her courage?

You really have a warped view of what most Muslims actually believe. Even 99% of the extremists condemn this (the reason for the attack was revenge on military though, nothing about girls going to school).

This young girl you speak of, is she a UK based influential Muslim who speaks out against all of these things that you are blaming Muslims for not speaking out about?

Do you support honour attacks and forced marriages?

And the scriptural basis for these actions is...

Do you support Terrorism and attempted terrorism?

Only attempted terrorism.

And your Influential Muslims in the UK are not speaking out loudly enough against all this bad stuff...

My influential Muslims? I do have quite a collection of them I suppose, will get them on the case asap.

Plenty do speak out against it anyway. Which 'influential Muslims' do you mean btw and what constitutes 'loudly enough'? What would a satisfactory response of 'influential Muslims' be?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I know very well what a Madhhab is. The Hanefi Madhhab was founded by Imam Abu Hanifa. It is based on his teachings which his students wrote down and then after his death his students continued explaining Islam and all new matters in the same manner and logic that he did and that he taught them. To this day, those who follow a Madhhab (which everyone should) they are following the opinions and views of the Scholars of that particular Madhhab.

We as laymen, are obligated to follow the Scholars, Allah comands it, so too his Prophet.

So your statements of not following anyone or any central leader or whatever, is wrong, contradicts your own statement of following the Hanefi Madhhab and contradicts the commands of Allah and his Messenger.

Even if you claim to not follow anyone without seeing the evidence for yourself, you still rely upon the writings of Scholars as you do not live at the time of the Prophet, that time is long gone. If your claim is that you study the hadith yourself on a matter then let me tell you that Muhammed never wrote any hadith, they were written down by the Sahaba and the Scholars that followed. So to say that you learn directly from the Sunnah is very incorrect. Even the hadith themselves are not all part of the Sunnah, there are contradictory hadith which are Sahih. And lastly, I am 110% sure that you are not an expert in the Arabic language. The commands of Allah (Qur'an) were not revealed in English, nor did our Prophet speak in English. To be able to derive rulings on your own as you say you need to be very well versed with the Arabic language to say the least.

Based on everything I know about Islam, the above post is pretty accurate. For all fields of knowledge, most people rely on experts and scholars as the primary source of knowledge regarding that field. I've always thought it would be inconsistent to ignore the knowledge of the majority of scholars who spent their whole lives studying Islam and the Arabic language to understand the Qur'an--which was why I found certain issues irreconcilable with what I believed (and still believe) when I read the Qur'an in Arabic.

As far as I can see, many Qur'anic verses are so clear that regarding them as mere metaphors or allegories requires a lot of mental gymnastics and overlooking fundamental aspects of the Arabic language.

 

[oldbadger]

Pretty sure you can easily infer from my comments that I do not support such actions. Was just pointing out that you presumably don't feel the need to incessantly speak out against your tax money facilitating anal rape, carrying out illegal wars, destroying entire countries, even though you are technically more responsible for these actions that the average Muslim is for terrorism.

Your accusations are the usual lies. Distractions away from the filthy crimes committed against innocent people here.

I just think you are holding the Muslim community to standards which you do not hold yourself to.

I know that you do. It shows me how much you leaders are prepared to speak out against the bad things that happen here, caused by Muslims.

You really have a warped view of what most Muslims actually believe. Even 99% of the extremists condemn this (the reason for the attack was revenge on military though, nothing about girls going to school).

Rubbish...... teachers and children forced to watch each other die. How cowardly was that? How disgusting.

This young girl you speak of, is she a UK based influential Muslim who speaks out against all of these things that you are blaming Muslims for not speaking out about?

She is a brave Pakistani girl, shot in the head because she insisted on going to school.

But in the UK, female teachers and female students in some Madrassas come under unnacceptable oppression.

And the scriptural basis for these actions is...

...... so condemn these actions! Loudly!
No Muslim leaders shoul;d be quiet about these atrocities.

My influential Muslims? I do have quite a collection of them I suppose, will get them on the case asap.

Better late than never. They have been too quiet for too long.

Plenty do speak out against it anyway. Which 'influential Muslims' do you mean btw and what constitutes 'loudly enough'? What would a satisfactory response of 'influential Muslims' be?

Ha ha! You pretend that the Muslim community has no leadership, no guidance, no teachers and no one that the Muslim community can look up to and listen to?
There it is again..... Intellectual Obstruction.

 

[Augustus]

Your accusations are the usual lies. Distractions away from the filthy crimes committed against innocent people here.

Which ones are lies?

She is a brave Pakistani girl, shot in the head because she insisted on going to school.

And a UK based influential Muslim who speaks out against everything you want UK based influential Muslims to speak out about.

Ha ha! You pretend that the Muslim community has no leadership, no guidance, no teachers and no one that the Muslim community can look up to and listen to?
There it is again..... Intellectual Obstruction.

It was a question.

How do you actually know what anyone in the Muslim community is actually saying anyway? It's not like it's headline news every time a Muslim speaks out against terrorism.

Which influential Muslims haven't spoken up enough? What constitutes speaking up 'enough'? You appear to be an expert on the topic, should be simple enough.

Finally, do you believe Muslims are collectively responsible for the actions and beliefs of all other Muslims? Or are they individually accountable for their own actions and beliefs like everybody else?

 

[beenie]

What are you people talking about? There is no official "clergy" in Islam, but there ARE plenty of groups who speak on behalf of the Muslim community.

Some of these statements were made even before the infamous 9/11...
CAIR's Anti-Terrorism Campaigns - CAIR
is one...
The American Muslim (TAM)
another...
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism – Charles Kurzman

... you get the point yet?

I could keep posting, but my feeling is that those who want to see condemnation by influential Islamic groups will open the links and read, and those who don't want to see the truth will just keep scrolling. It took me less than a minute to find these. Look and ye shall find...

Regarding the ayatollah being a respected religious leader? I'll get back to y'all when I'm done dying of laughter. There is plenty to criticize in Islam, Christianity, etc., but let's be truthful about what not to criticize.

@oldbadger

 

[Gharib]

What are you people talking about? There is no official "clergy" in Islam, but there ARE plenty of groups who speak on behalf of the Muslim community.

The Madhhabs go back to the students of the Sahaba. Their teachings are the 'official clergy'. Moreover our Prophet has said to follow the majority. Again, they are the majority of this ummah.

It is by not following them that people get confused and either change the religion or leave it altogether.

 

[Spiderman]

Islamic extremism should upset you, but if you think that more than 99% of Christian leaders would tell you that executing homosexuals is "extremely wrong and unjust," you are mistaken.
s."

That is precisely what bothers me. When Religion becomes a form of Government where people are imprisoned, mutilated, or executed in a primitive inhumane way for Religious reasons or because of someon'es interpretation of God's orders in an ancient text.

And many millions of people are subjected to these laws which pave the way to big government , military dictatorships, intolerance, discrimination, bigotry, and poison to all of the minds of those who must be born and raised in such countries where such sickening atrocities are considered legal, noble , and God-ordained.

If you are Muslim, do you believe that Allah would prefer that Sharia law be enforced in America?

 

[Godobeyer]

The Madhhabs go back to the students of the Sahaba. Their teachings are the 'official clergy'. Moreover our Prophet has said to follow the majority. Again, they are the majority of this ummah.

It is by not following them that people get confused and either change the religion or leave it altogether.

there is no Pope for Muslims .

Imam in Mosque just for pray Salat and explain Islam as his efforts .

Scholars explain Islam and daawa (call to Islam) .

Bin Laden or Albagdadi (ISIS leader) some others , represent their views by their crimes and speechs , which is against Islam teaching .

the scholars are not divine , so thier speechs could not compare to Quran or Hadith .

so the problem that some people pick the scholars "opinions" as holly , instead of Quran and Hadith .

 

[oldbadger]

What are you people talking about? There is no official "clergy" in Islam, but there ARE plenty of groups who speak on behalf of the Muslim community.

Which part of:-
More Influential Muslims should be speaking out publicly against terrorist acts, the subjugation of females, schooling indoctrination.....

........ don't you get?

 

[oldbadger]

How do you actually know what anyone in the Muslim community is actually saying anyway? It's not like it's headline news every time a Muslim speaks out against terrorism....

What a joke!
Now that would make headline news.
So where are they?

 

[oldbadger]

What are you people talking about? There is no official "clergy" in Islam, but there ARE plenty of groups who speak on behalf of the Muslim community.

..... so there is not a Muslim Council for Great Britain?
So there are no Muslim Leaders in Great Britain?
... so there are no Imams in Great Britain?
.... so there are no influential Muslims in Great Britain?

Check it out......., you might learn something?

 

[Woodrow LI]

What a joke!
Now that would make headline news.
So where are they?

Does Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri get much publicity in the UK?

 

[Woodrow LI]

 

[Woodrow LI]

 

[Woodrow LI]

 

[JustWondering]

Religion is just one of many things that can be used to manipulate otherwise good people into doing evil things. Getting rid of religion or certain religions wouldn't really change much. If you want less violence than getting rid of violent people would be the solution.