Do you as a Muslim believe in women's equality?

[Draka]

It is not that it does not matter, it is at one time at least, husband and wife meant something, it meant they stayed together for life, and looked after one another, and were not selfish and self centered like nowadays... what they call 'independent'...haha

So there is no need for two votes, or at least, should not be. That is all about the woman wanting influence and power over men, to gain more power and wealth for themselves. As for men not seeing that, women have done a great job, as governments have, of steering their thinking to their ideas. Nice when it works, and it has worked. The evidence is all around. But there is always penalties to pay, always consequences.

You keep arguing this ridiculous stance that it has something to do with "power and wealth/money". I have told you, others have told you, that isn't the case. We tell you about making a contribution, about serving others, about being able to stand on our own, about contributing to the household...and you ignore all of it because that is not what you wish to believe. Much like a Creationist, you refuse to see reality before you and adamantly deny anything which may upset your own personal worldview. It is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, squeezing your eyes shut, and yelling really loudly "I'm right, you're wrong" over and over while stomping your feet.

Those whom are not selfish realize that their partner in life is an unique individual with their own mind and desires and needs. Those whom are not selfish allow their partner to express their views, encourage it even. Relationships with un-selfish people in them are an exchange of ideas from two equal partners working together to make their life a good and happy one. One where both partners are appreciated for more than just what they do, but who they are. That includes our differences. To cherish each other is not to try to rule over another, to make one person's voice less than the other, but to embrace each other, both where we are alike and where we are different. I even put the jist of that, in some wording or another, into a wedding I presided over and will continue to do so with any others.

Oh, and men who do not see things your way are reasonable men, educated men, enlightened men. men who care for women and believe that we are more than our ability to give birth, suckle a baby, and change diapers. Men who believe as you do...are obviously scared of women. Hate women. Feel women are at fault for everything they perceive as bad in their lives or the world. That is indicative of something psychologically wrong with them. A complex, perhaps brought about by personal issues in their lives which caused the huge chip on their shoulder. These are feelings and outlooks to be dealt with. To get to the root of the problem. to help.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You keep arguing this ridiculous stance that it

has something to do with "power and wealth/money". I have told you, others have told you,

that isn't the case.

That is exactly the reason it started.Try thinking a little deeper. It did not start because women thought they had too much nor did they say they would work for nothing. Grow up a bit will ya

We tell you about making a contribution, about serving others, about being

able to stand on our own, about contributing to the household...and you ignore all of it because

that is not what you wish to believe. Much like a Creationist, you refuse to see reality before you

and adamantly deny anything which may upset your own personal worldview. It is the

equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, squeezing your eyes shut, and yelling really

loudly "I'm right, you're wrong" over and over while stomping your feet.

Which I could say about you. But you have already made up your mind abou tme, right? It is called having an opinion. What you have now is not the first wave of feminism. You just accept it and probably moan about working as if you don't want to...haha, funny.

Those whom are not selfish realize that their partner in life is an unique individual with their

own mind and desires and needs. Those whom are not selfish allow their partner to express

their views, encourage it even. Relationships with un-selfish people in them are an exchange of

ideas from two equal partners working together to make their life a good and happy one. One

where both partners are appreciated for more than just what they do, but who they are. That

includes our differences. To cherish each other is not to try to rule over another, to make one

person's voice less than the other, but to embrace each other, both where we are alike and where

we are different. I even put the jist of that, in some wording or another, into a wedding I

presided over and will continue to do so with any others.

Yes. But why is it you think I am not saying that? Oh, I get it, you think because I say part of the olden days was okay, you assume I mean all of it. Yet I think it was you that mentioned things of the past also, which it seems you also want to remain, but not all of it. So what?

Oh, and men who do not see things your way are reasonable men, educated men, enlightened

men. men who care for women and believe that we are more than our ability to give birth,

suckle a baby, and change diapers.

Don't try and claim all men. I am not sure what it is like where you are, but perhaps you make the men feel ashamed at something they have no reason to feel ashamed for. For example, claiming that someone is weak for not doing the woman's role, is not weak. It is taking the role of the man, which you seem to have problems with or you wouldn't be arguing it.

Men who believe as you do...are obviously scared of

women. Hate women. Feel women are at fault for everything they perceive as bad in their lives

or the world. That is indicative of something psychologically wrong with them. A complex,

perhaps brought about by personal issues in their lives which caused the huge chip on their

shoulder. These are feelings and outlooks to be dealt with. To get to the root of the problem. to

help.

No, rather the opposite. It shows women who cannot do their role and have to be free from the house, are intimdated by men, hence first they want the vote, then they have control partly over the government, then jobs, with that comes power and wealth, and then they don't need men once they have the kids. Guess what happens now in the UK? Go on, have a guess.... we have many single parent families. Now you will blaim that on men and I will blame that on women. One thing for sure, it was not like that before. Now we have this 'individualism' kick in, which is just another name for 'selfish'.
I have told you about the crime rates in UK and US which are worse for those who are of single parent families, and I have shown others (women) that also think feminism is to blame. It is the singular change in the last few decades that has changed society. And don't tell me women having not benefitted with money and power.

 

[turk179]

Maybe I can help. This is what you said:


You see the end part. It is not part of the Poe commentary. Okay

She is right. Your views are a very good example of Poe's law. Your views are extremely outrageous. I'm not even sure if men in the 1920's believed that they were as superior over women as you portray yourself to be. You're either joking or crazy. But if this really is how you feel about women, might I suggest counseling.

I bolded a little more so you can see the whole context. It is in regards to Poe's law. Do you have comments about the comparison made between your views which are posted all over this thread and Poe's law?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Weak as p-ss, mate, weak as p-ss.

''Still learning to be wise'' it says under your avatar. You have a long way to go eh

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Robert, are you confident in your perspective about what women should be doing in their daily lives?

From what is this based off?

 

[Robert.Evans]

But if this really is how you feel about women, might I suggest counseling.

I think that is clear

 

[Debater Slayer]

Like I say, you have to understand the law.
They knew years ago not to kill, yet we still do it. So I should not hold you head too high my friend.

By the way, I was part wrong in the last thread. You spoke of secular laws giving religion freedom. In one sense that is right. You see, at the time of Christ the Romans ruled Yerushalaim, and they would not allow the death penalty. So it seems that the secular world then ruled as it does now largely, certainly in the UK at any rate.
This begs the question as to why?
Is God not powerful enough to allow the Church to rule for example? But one of the basic laws of thousands of years ago was, Do not kill. This is said to mean do not murder, but that depends on who you listen to!

So, if we take that as a God given law, and then the other laws, the Mosai, as being man-made, which in turn had the death penalty, it seems that he took away their ability to use the death penalty, then and now.
We might also ask why that is. The reason for that is, the Mosaic law reflects God himself, as God on earth. But ultimately, it is only God who is supposed to take life, not us. So it seems to prevent us acting as 'gods' he put in a secular government who would respect humanity more.

So you were partly right

Well, I strongly disagree with the idea that the laws of any given religion should have any authority on state laws, but at least you acknowledged one of the upsides to secular law. This might be the best thing you've ever posted here.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It is not that it does not matter, it is at one time at least, husband and wife meant something, it meant they stayed together for life, and looked after one another, and were not selfish and self centered like nowadays... what they call 'independent'...haha

So there is no need for two votes, or at least, should not be. That is all about the woman wanting influence and power over men, to gain more power and wealth for themselves. As for men not seeing that, women have done a great job, as governments have, of steering their thinking to their ideas. Nice when it works, and it has worked. The evidence is all around. But there is always penalties to pay, always consequences.

So, when men and women are supposed to be one flesh, the man is given all the power to speak on the couple's behalf... yet when a woman wants to vote on her own and voice her opinion, she is "steering" the status quo against men.

Newsflash: I don't think it is in my favor nor in any other man's favor to speak on behalf of women. That's arrogance and an insecure desire to control others, not a right any man has.

 

[turk179]

Do you have comments about the comparison made between your views which are posted all over this thread and Poe's law?

I think that is clear

Is that a no?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Robert, are you confident in your perspective about what women should be doing in their daily lives?

From what is this based off?

Not read it:
Children in single parent families 'worse behaved' - Telegraph
The Telegraph - Telegraph online, Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph - Telegraph › Education › Education News

15 Oct 2010 - Children raised by single mothers are twice as likely to misbehave as those born into traditional two-parent families, according to research.

Not read it:

Broken families 'fuelling black crime' - Telegraph
The Telegraph - Telegraph online, Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph - Telegraph › News › UK News

15 Jun 2007 - Six in 10 black Caribbean youngsters live in single parent ... factor in the "over-representation" of young black men in the criminal justice system ...


'Feminists hate men': Meet Mike Buchanan, the leader of Britain's new Justice for Men and Boys party - People - News - The Independent

''Had I been denied access to my children after my first divorce, I wouldn’t be speaking to you today, I’ve absolutely no doubt about that. Anyone who’s worked with fathers denied access to their children will know a number who’ve committed suicide."

 

[Robert.Evans]

So, when men and women are

supposed to be one flesh, the man is given all the power

All the what?! You seem to be seeing this way out of context.

to speak on the couple's behalf... yet

when a woman wants to vote on her own and voice her opinion, she is "steering" the status quo

against men.

See above.

Newsflash: I don't think it is in my favor nor in any other man's favor to speak on behalf of

women. That's arrogance and an insecure desire to control others, not a right any man has.

Again you misunderstand. Being one flesh one mind, inother words actually liking one another to get married in the first place, we might be foregiven for thinking they want the same thing, eh? As for arrogance, that can be said of your stance. Your not exactly cream and cookies are ya
And insecure? Funny. Perhaps you are insecure. Perhaps you like the woman to be the mother figure. You see! It can be seen in many ways. Let me know when you want to try to understand what I am saying.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Is that a no?

Is that you not wanting to understand?

turk179 said: ↑
But if this really is how you feel about women, might I suggest counseling.

 

[Draka]

Is that you not wanting to understand?

turk179 said: ↑
But if this really is how you feel about women, might I suggest counseling.

Do you not know what Poe's Law refers to and is that why you keep dodging this? It is made quite evident as to the position you hold that is being referred to here. Besides your outrageous claims throughout this thread it is said in his post what he is referring to. I just don't think you either know what Poe's Law is, or you are incredibly blind as to how your posts are an excellent of example of it.

 

[Draka]

@Robert.Evans , Should we all assume that you never watch tv, or watch movies, or buy anything from a woman in a store? I mean, aren't you just validating women working when you not only acknowledge their contributions (enjoying a movie or tv show with an actress in it), but use their abilities when you need something in a store or some service? As a matter of fact, what are you doing using a computer or an internet service? Have you no idea how many women work at internet service providers or for computer companies? My goodness, the very computer/laptop/tablet/phone you are using to post these messages may have been mostly made by women! If you really feel so strongly about women not working, about them knowing their "proper place", why aren't you boycotting absolutely everything that women contribute to? In fact, I suggest you do. If you think women should be in the home, not "taking jobs from men", why you absolutely must make your stance more than just words, you must take action. Boycott. Refuse to use or buy anything a woman had anything to do with, else you are just encouraging women to keep stealing jobs from men and neglect their children. That's right, stand up for your beliefs. Don't just be a blowhard with words alone. In fact, I'd suggest, if you find it hard to survive by boycotting (what with being restricted in even buying food, soap, water, electricity and so on) perhaps you'd find it easier to just move to a place with the same ideals as you hold.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not read it:
Children in single parent families 'worse behaved' - Telegraph
The Telegraph - Telegraph online, Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph - Telegraph › Education › Education News

15 Oct 2010 - Children raised by single mothers are twice as likely to misbehave as those born into traditional two-parent families, according to research.

Not read it:

Broken families 'fuelling black crime' - Telegraph
The Telegraph - Telegraph online, Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph - Telegraph › News › UK News

15 Jun 2007 - Six in 10 black Caribbean youngsters live in single parent ... factor in the "over-representation" of young black men in the criminal justice system ...


'Feminists hate men': Meet Mike Buchanan, the leader of Britain's new Justice for Men and Boys party - People - News - The Independent

''Had I been denied access to my children after my first divorce, I wouldn’t be speaking to you today, I’ve absolutely no doubt about that. Anyone who’s worked with fathers denied access to their children will know a number who’ve committed suicide."

In no way did that answer my question.

Are you confident in what you think all women should be doing in their daily lives?

That's a yes or no answer. So please answer a simple "yes" or a simple "no."

And if "yes" you ARE confident in that you know best what all women should be doing, from what do you base your opinion from?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

@Robert.Evans , Should we all assume that you never watch tv, or watch movies, or buy anything from a woman in a store? I mean, aren't you just validating women working when you not only acknowledge their contributions (enjoying a movie or tv show with an actress in it), but use their abilities when you need something in a store or some service? As a matter of fact, what are you doing using a computer or an internet service? Have you no idea how many women work at internet service providers or for computer companies? My goodness, the very computer/laptop/tablet/phone you are using to post these messages may have been mostly made by women! If you really feel so strongly about women not working, about them knowing their "proper place", why aren't you boycotting absolutely everything that women contribute to? In fact, I suggest you do. If you think women should be in the home, not "taking jobs from men", why you absolutely must make your stance more than just words, you must take action. Boycott. Refuse to use or buy anything a woman had anything to do with, else you are just encouraging women to keep stealing jobs from men and neglect their children. That's right, stand up for your beliefs. Don't just be a blowhard with words alone. In fact, I'd suggest, if you find it hard to survive by boycotting (what with being restricted in even buying food, soap, water, electricity and so on) perhaps you'd find it easier to just move to a place with the same ideals as you hold.

Actually, there are plenty of women in history who have been integral to the success, innovation, and proliferation of information technology (IT).

Mothers of Technology: 10 Women Who Invented and Innovated in Tech — BizTech

 

[gnostic]

You look at it as unequal treatment. I see it as a means of protecting women from free loaders that would try to live off the wealth of a rich woman.
a man is permitted up to 4 wives not because it means satisfaction, but because it is a social obligation to provide for women that are unable to care for them self.

The restriction of 4 wives was made to discourage polygamy, not to encourage it. The criteria to have more than one wife is very difficult to achieve. The financial obligation alone is hard to meet. Each wife is to have her own house. In Islam the wife owns the house and furnishings. Each house is to be of equal value. When a woman marries it is she who sets the what she wants in a house in the Nikkah. If a man takes an additional wife and she demands a house worth more that what the existing wives have, he must upgrade the value of their homes.

Next in the choice of his added wife, he must first choose from among the widows and divorcees in the community, if they all turn him down only then can he look further.
The permission to have multiple wives was not given to satisfy males, it's purpose is to provide for women that can not provide for them self.

The reason a woman is not required to have multiple husbands is because a woman is not required to financially support any male.

I do not see the requirement to have 2 female witness as being unfair, I see it as a means of reducing the chance of a woman being intimidated by an abusive husband. In other words it is much more difficult to get 2 woman to testify in favor of a man than it would be to get just one to.this is done out of fairness not because of inferiority.

For example in the signing of the nikkah(Marriage) contract a man needs to provide 2 male witnesses to testify he is doing so of his own free will, a woman has to provide 4. This makes forced marriages much more difficult to carry out.
Yes abuses occur, but they are abuses and not what we are commanded.

Most of the things you wrote still make her inferior to men, especially to the husbands. And that mean they (women) have less rights and privileges than the male counterparts.

So in marriage, it is never about equal partnership or shared responsibilities. It is about the wife/wives being confined to the "house", which is archaic attitude of woman being the weaker sex.

The whole islamic concept of woman needing protection, may be positive in some respects and in some aspects of marriage, but also at the same time, it is an excuse to restrict their rights to do more, hence negative aspects, which lead to oppression of women.

The Qur'an and muslim society is still operating on the ideal of women being stay-at-home-housewife mentality, while the husband being the breadwinner, head of the household. What if the wife is more career-oriented than husband, and more successful and richer than the husband.

About 17-18 years ago, my sister worked with a couple of Muslim Pakistani women in administration at a security company. I have never met them, but they seemed to be related, or their husbands might have been related to each other, because my sister said the men knew each other.

Regardless of who is related to who, both men did exactly the same things to their wives. They always pick them, but that's not the problem. The problem was that each week, when the wives were paid their weekly salary in paid cheques, both husbands took their earnings from their wives. My sister witnessed this happened every single week till she left this job.

Despite being both women were working and "earning their living", apparently both of them couldn't keep their earnings. They don't seemed to allow their finance or manage their own money.

I don't think all married Muslim couples do this, but apparently this does happen in real life, with some marriages. Regardless if majority of marriages happened like this or not, it is backward view on how some Muslim men treat their wives.

This is clear example on how restrictive (and oppressive) a Muslim husband can be towards his wife.

If a woman is working, shouldn't she decide how the money be save or use, not her husband?

 

[Draka]

@Robert.Evans , Should we all assume that you never watch tv, or watch movies, or buy anything from a woman in a store? I mean, aren't you just validating women working when you not only acknowledge their contributions (enjoying a movie or tv show with an actress in it), but use their abilities when you need something in a store or some service? As a matter of fact, what are you doing using a computer or an internet service? Have you no idea how many women work at internet service providers or for computer companies? My goodness, the very computer/laptop/tablet/phone you are using to post these messages may have been mostly made by women! If you really feel so strongly about women not working, about them knowing their "proper place", why aren't you boycotting absolutely everything that women contribute to? In fact, I suggest you do. If you think women should be in the home, not "taking jobs from men", why you absolutely must make your stance more than just words, you must take action. Boycott. Refuse to use or buy anything a woman had anything to do with, else you are just encouraging women to keep stealing jobs from men and neglect their children. That's right, stand up for your beliefs. Don't just be a blowhard with words alone. In fact, I'd suggest, if you find it hard to survive by boycotting (what with being restricted in even buying food, soap, water, electricity and so on) perhaps you'd find it easier to just move to a place with the same ideals as you hold.

In fact, I thoroughly hope that you are so adamant about women shouldn't be working that you obviously show that position when in dire medical need and turn down any care provided by a female. Woman doctor...absurd. Female heart surgeon...you'd rather die. Oh, let's not forget other fields. Your house is on fire, a female firefighter is there? Let it burn. She comes in to pull you out and save your life...heck you'll just burn. Female paramedic responds to your car crash...forget it, you'll just bleed out on your steering wheel.

Don't just talk the talk...walk the walk.

 

[Draka]

Actually, there are plenty of women in history who have been integral to the success, innovation, and proliferation of information technology (IT).

Mothers of Technology: 10 Women Who Invented and Innovated in Tech — BizTech

Well then obviously we should clearly not have all the advancements we do. Because we little delicate and weak women are not to be bothering our baby making selves with such manly things. Those rebellious greedy women had some kind of nerve to dare to make technological contributions to our society.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well then obviously we should clearly not have all the advancements we do. Because we little delicate and weak women are not to be bothering our baby making selves with such manly things. Those rebellious greedy women had some kind of nerve to dare to make technological contributions to our society.

God, I love you.