• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The Influenza Epidemic of 1918


Hard as it is to believe, the answer is true.

World War I claimed an estimated 16 million lives. The influenza epidemic that swept the world in 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people. One fifth of the world's population was attacked by this deadly virus. Within months, it had killed more people than any other illness in recorded history.

The plague emerged in two phases. In late spring of 1918, the first phase, known as the "three-day fever," appeared without warning. Few deaths were reported. Victims recovered after a few days. When the disease surfaced again that fall, it was far more severe. Scientists, doctors, and health officials could not identify this disease which was striking so fast and so viciously, eluding treatment and defying control. Some victims died within hours of their first symptoms. Others succumbed after a few days; their lungs filled with fluid and they suffocated to death.

The plague did not discriminate. It was rampant in urban and rural areas, from the densely populated East coast to the remotest parts of Alaska. Young adults, usually unaffected by these types of infectious diseases, were among the hardest hit groups along with the elderly and young children. The flu afflicted over 25 percent of the U.S. population. In one year, the average life expectancy in the United States dropped by 12 years.

It is an oddity of history that the influenza epidemic of 1918 has been overlooked in the teaching of American history. Documentation of the disease is ample, as shown in the records selected from the holdings of the National Archives regional archives. Exhibiting these documents helps the epidemic take its rightful place as a major disaster in world history.

The Influenza Epidemic of 1918
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I can appreciate that a negative reaction would put people off vaccinations. You have my sympathies. Of course if we're going by anecdotal evidence, then I can name several women who kept on vaccinating their kids even after a "bad/negative" reaction without a single bad thing happening after the first incident. So..........

However that "choice" you speak off puts newborn babies, Cancer patients, people with auto immune deficiencies and eventually even the vaccinated public at risk for becoming sick and possibly dying en mass from preventable diseases. It's one thing to choose alternative medicines for yourself, or reject medical advice from doctors. That's a choice. It's quite another to put everyone else at risk just because someone as a layperson (who doesn't fully understand science) doesn't trust it anymore due to a potential negative side affect.

Why would the 'vaccinated public' be at risk of someone who is not vaccinated? If they are vaccinated, aren't they safe?

I think older kids and adults can be vaccinated without too much problem. I take issue with vaccination of very young babies because of the immune system issue. Immune systems do not naturally begin to function until around 6 months of age. So why vaccinate a newborn? It doesnt make sense nor is it 'scientific' as it doesnt work with nature and what is known about the immune systems in young babies.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
"It turns out that newborn babies, albeit fragile, have immune systems that are stronger than you think. New research shows that newborn immune T cells may have the ability to trigger an inflammatory response to bacteria, an important immune response."

Newborn Babies' Immune Systems Stronger Than You Think : Health & Medicine : Nature World News

Besides... I think the overwhelmingly obvious fact that negative vaccine reactions are extremely rare kinda foils your "babies are unable to process it therefore it's bad for them" argument.

i'll remember that next time im reading the warning label .
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If you look at the arguments mate it becomes abundantly clear that the anti vax positions come from ignorance and arrogance, which relies on purposely distorting medicl data, not completely understanding science and vaccines as a whole, baseless claims, Conflating correlation with causation and conspiracy theories. There's skepticism and then there's just plain ignorance. Call a spade a spade.
Now I can appreciate why some might hold an anti vax position. Negative experiences and all that. I mean that's fair enough but even on this thread the supposed arguments haven't strayed that far from what I mentioned previously. Perhaps someone can give a rational argument, so I look forward to that. As it stands I agree with YmirGF

I can appreciate why some are anti-vax as well... here are some of those reasons:


Flu shot fatality - toddler dies 12 hours after having vaccination

No Cookies | Perth Now

Im not going to trawl the internet for more tragic vaccination stories. Im just going to say that there is good reason why some choose not to vaccinate.

We have to live with the consequences of our decisions either way.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I don't know about Pegg but with most examples, the link is made because the kid seems completely normal and healthy until immediately -after- being vaccinated.
Is anyone really disputing that people can have terrible reactions? I thought that the main argument was that the ratio of non-reaction to reaction was good enough to justify vaccinating the population.

Part of this is what specifically do they can sick with?

But

"
Vaccine combinations
Some parents also questioned whether the MMR vaccine—which combines 3 vaccines into 1 injection—causes autism since symptoms of the disorder often become apparent about the time children start getting immunized.

In response to this concern, researchers in Europe, Canada, and the United States looked closely at this issue. Studies have looked at the timing of the vaccine and the vaccine itself and have found no link between the vaccines and autism.4

It's risky if you don't vaccinate your child. Immunizations are importantfor many reasons. Lots of research has already been done, and research continues to show that vaccines are safe."

Autism and Vaccines-Topic Overview


also just interesting.


The Flu Vaccine Controversy
JANUARY 17, 2013 BY NURSE.COM
By: Jennifer Chaikin, RN-BC, MSN, MHA, CCRN Executive Director of Educational Initiatives, Nurse.com


The Flu Vaccine Controversy | Nurse.com Blog
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Well, one possible motivation is money. For example: Contaminated haemophilia blood products - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not saying that vaccines are part of a conspiracy, but I'm not saying they aren't, either. My mind hasn't been made up either way. I don't have much of a reason to trust the government or pharmaceutical corporations, though.
Except that most people involved in the sort of "conspiracy" that would be required to cover up vaccine damage are never, ever going to be making a penny.

I can't even see how you might think the contaminated blood scandal is remotely relevant.

Anybody capable of understanding numbers can look into vaccination and see the benefits vs the risk - that's all it takes.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
I can appreciate why some are anti-vax as well... here are some of those reasons:


Flu shot fatality - toddler dies 12 hours after having vaccination

No Cookies | Perth Now

Im not going to trawl the internet for more tragic vaccination stories. Im just going to say that there is good reason why some choose not to vaccinate.

We have to live with the consequences of our decisions either way.
Thing is "Toddler dies of flu" is not news, it's life. It happens so much more frequently that deaths are reported as statistics, not anecdotes, and people get a skewed idea of the risk. "Toddler dies 24 hours before his vaccination was scheduled" is also not news, though it probably happens with equal frequency to the 24-hours afterwards.

One recent "teenager dies after HPV vaccination" story run locally here never ran an equivalent "Teenager's death shown to have nothing whatsoever to do with HPV vaccine" - the first was a front page scare story, the other might have been in the paper, but hidden so nobody saw it. I'm sure people like you will find the first (it and many echoes are still online) and not realize that it's another unwarranted scare: so many millions of people are vaccinated, by simple law of averages something bad is bound to happen to some of them soon after. a) this does not prove causality, as you should well know, but b) if actual causes are not reported, people doing your "trawl the internet for tragic vaccination stories" will see a load of inaccurate assertions that vaccines have caused damage while never seeing the corrections if it is shown that they do not.

The simple fact that you have to trawl the world for anecdata about "vaccine damage" is proof of how safe they are.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
One recent "teenager dies after HPV vaccination" story run locally here never ran an equivalent "Teenager's death shown to have nothing whatsoever to do with HPV vaccine" - the first was a front page scare story, the other might have been in the paper, but hidden so nobody saw it. I'm sure people like you will find the first (it and many echoes are still online) and not realize that it's another unwarranted scare: so many millions of people are vaccinated, by simple law of averages something bad is bound to happen to some of them soon after. a) this does not prove causality, as you should well know, but b) if actual causes are not reported, people doing your "trawl the internet for tragic vaccination stories" will see a load of inaccurate assertions that vaccines have caused damage while never seeing the corrections if it is shown that they do not.

Would you be able to send me a link to the article explaining that the HPV vaccine had nothing to do with the girl's death?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thing is "Toddler dies of flu" is not news, it's life. It happens so much more frequently that deaths are reported as statistics, not anecdotes, and people get a skewed idea of the risk. "Toddler dies 24 hours before his vaccination was scheduled" is also not news, though it probably happens with equal frequency to the 24-hours afterwards.

One recent "teenager dies after HPV vaccination" story run locally here never ran an equivalent "Teenager's death shown to have nothing whatsoever to do with HPV vaccine" - the first was a front page scare story, the other might have been in the paper, but hidden so nobody saw it. I'm sure people like you will find the first (it and many echoes are still online) and not realize that it's another unwarranted scare: so many millions of people are vaccinated, by simple law of averages something bad is bound to happen to some of them soon after. a) this does not prove causality, as you should well know, but b) if actual causes are not reported, people doing your "trawl the internet for tragic vaccination stories" will see a load of inaccurate assertions that vaccines have caused damage while never seeing the corrections if it is shown that they do not.

The simple fact that you have to trawl the world for anecdata about "vaccine damage" is proof of how safe they are.

If we are honest, the fact is we are being scared by both sides.

Vaccinations are not always safe. Thats a fact. Its true. We are warned about the 'possible' adverse reactions by the very people who promote vaccinations.

So lets be honest and at least agree that there is risk on both sides. But are we happy to live in a world where the governments decide what medical treatment we will receive. Do you really want your rights to choose to be taken away from you? Because that is what is happening now due to the powerful lobby groups who are backed by multinational pharmaceutical companies and drug producers. They are pushing to make vaccination compulsory whether you agree with it or not.

Is that the sort of world you want to live in?
 

.kaleb

Member
If we are honest, the fact is we are being scared by both sides.

Vaccinations are not always safe. Thats a fact. Its true. We are warned about the 'possible' adverse reactions by the very people who promote vaccinations.

So lets be honest and at least agree that there is risk on both sides. But are we happy to live in a world where the governments decide what medical treatment we will receive. Do you really want your rights to choose to be taken away from you? Because that is what is happening now due to the powerful lobby groups who are backed by multinational pharmaceutical companies and drug producers. They are pushing to make vaccination compulsory whether you agree with it or not.

Is that the sort of world you want to live in?
Fortunately we won't have to live in such a world when Christ takes over mans affairs. Can't be far from happening either!
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
If we are honest, the fact is we are being scared by both sides.

Vaccinations are not always safe. Thats a fact. Its true. We are warned about the 'possible' adverse reactions by the very people who promote vaccinations.

So lets be honest and at least agree that there is risk on both sides. But are we happy to live in a world where the governments decide what medical treatment we will receive. Do you really want your rights to choose to be taken away from you? Because that is what is happening now due to the powerful lobby groups who are backed by multinational pharmaceutical companies and drug producers. They are pushing to make vaccination compulsory whether you agree with it or not.

Is that the sort of world you want to live in?

Yes.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Why would the 'vaccinated public' be at risk of someone who is not vaccinated? If they are vaccinated, aren't they safe?

I think older kids and adults can be vaccinated without too much problem. I take issue with vaccination of very young babies because of the immune system issue. Immune systems do not naturally begin to function until around 6 months of age. So why vaccinate a newborn? It doesnt make sense nor is it 'scientific' as it doesnt work with nature and what is known about the immune systems in young babies.

Vaccines aren't a magical freaking barrier mate. They work off something called "Herd Immunity"
Basically it works like this if you have a part of the population who did not vaccinate then they are viable hosts for viruses. The more viable hosts the more chance a virus has to mutate as it spreads. This mutating can potentially mean the virus becomes immune to vaccines thereby making our current vaccines useless. Ergo the vaccinated people become at risk for said mutated virus. That's why people are angry at the anti vaxxers. They actually have the potential to literally undo vaccines!!!!
In order to minimise that risk we immunise as many people as possible. If there's hardly any potential hosts for a virus then that virus has a harder time latching onto something. This reduces the chances that it can mutate.

Actually we're beginning to learn more about newborn immune systems and they do in fact function at very young ages, just not the exact way an adult's does. Now you can ask others far more knowledgeable than I about why we vaccinate babies. I fear I am woefully too ignorant to help you out there.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
All I can say is don't believe everything your told, of course the FDA are going to protect their ***, can you imagine the law suite against them. just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you know all about vaccines, they only know what need to know and that is how WHO wants it to be, anyway I have my beliefs and you have yours.
Thing is, I don't live in the US, I'm not basing my conclusions on what the FDA say, or the WHO. I'm basing them on statistics independently researched from dozens of different countries, on research done by governmens, by universities and by charities. All I can say is "don't believe everything you are told", as that includes what you're told by conspiracy theorists, too.

Would you be able to send me a link to the article explaining that the HPV vaccine had nothing to do with the girl's death?
Girl who died after cervical cancer injection had tumour in her chest | Society | The Guardian
The Graun is one of the better papers for running articles which contradict a previous one - though I've only just realized this story (from 2009) is actually about a girl who *isn't* local, yet my local newpaper saw fit to run it front page. This is how vaccine damage scares spread, because damage stories are "news" and sell newspapers; "we were wrong" stories don't sell anything like as much.

So lets be honest and at least agree that there is risk on both sides.
Yes, but as a functionally-numerate person, I am clearly able to see that the relative risks are overwhelmingly disproportionate: more people have died from one major flu epidemic that will ever have had any kind of negative reaction to every vaccine ever given. People have fogotten just how nasty some of these diseases are, because we don't see them any more. And *why* don't we see them any more?
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Why would the 'vaccinated public' be at risk of someone who is not vaccinated? If they are vaccinated, aren't they safe?
Vaccines vary in effectiveness: some are almost 100% effective, some not much more than 90% (i.e. if you've been vaccinated, there's still a 1 in 10 chance you might catch the disease)

Most people who're vaccinated will be safe from contrating what they've been vaccinated against; however, there are always those for whom the vaccines didn't take, those who for other medical reasons were unable to be vaccinated, those too young to be vaccinatd - these people rely on herd immunity, where the levels of protection are high enough so the disease is unable to spread.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Why would the 'vaccinated public' be at risk of someone who is not vaccinated? If they are vaccinated, aren't they safe?

I think older kids and adults can be vaccinated without too much problem. I take issue with vaccination of very young babies because of the immune system issue. Immune systems do not naturally begin to function until around 6 months of age. So why vaccinate a newborn? It doesnt make sense nor is it 'scientific' as it doesnt work with nature and what is known about the immune systems in young babies.

Myth 1: Getting so many vaccines will overwhelm my child's immune system.

No doubt about it, the immunization schedule recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) can seem daunting. Your child can receive up to 23 shots by the time she's 2 years old and as many as six shots at a single doctor visit. So it's not surprising that many parents have concerns about how vaccines might affect a child's developing immunity and often cite these as a reason to refuse a vaccine.

But it should be the least of your worries. "Children have an enormous capacity to respond safely to challenges to the immune system from vaccines," says Dr. Offit. "A baby's body is bombarded with immunologic challenges—from bacteria in food to the dust they breathe. Compared to what they typically encounter and manage during the day, vaccines are literally a drop in the ocean." In fact, Dr. Offit's studies show that in theory, healthy infants could safely get up to 100,000 vaccines at once.

10 Vaccine Myths—Busted | Parenting
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Did you know the chinese government force prisoners to donate their vital organs....while they are still alive!

You can give up your rights to self autonomy if you wish... but i dont want to do that.
Compelling the administration of vaccinations, the rewards for which overwhelmingly outweigh the risks, is not quite the same thing... not even in an abstract way... as harvesting organs from prisoners.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Why would the 'vaccinated public' be at risk of someone who is not vaccinated? If they are vaccinated, aren't they safe?

I think older kids and adults can be vaccinated without too much problem. I take issue with vaccination of very young babies because of the immune system issue. Immune systems do not naturally begin to function until around 6 months of age. So why vaccinate a newborn? It doesnt make sense nor is it 'scientific' as it doesnt work with nature and what is known about the immune systems in young babies.

Importance of Timing
According to the Recommended Immunization Schedule for Persons 0 — 6 years of age, children may receive up to 24 vaccinations to protect them from up to 14 diseases by the time they're 2 years of age. It may seem like a lot of vaccines for your child, but some parents are unnecessarily concerned..

Vaccines are recommended for very young children because their immune systems are not yet fully mature and also because their stomachs produce less acid, making it easier for ingested bacteria and viruses to multiply. These factors leave them the most vulnerable to the devastating effects of these serious diseases.

When a baby is developing in the mother's womb it is in a sterile environment. The baby's immune system goes into action at birth, as the child confronts bacteria outside of the womb. But our bodies are an amazing creation with an immune system that is ready to go to work from the moment that we are born. Infants begin to immediately develop an active immune response to these bacteria -- an immune response that prevents these bacteria from entering the bloodstream and causing harm.

Within the first two years of life a child is exposed to 11 or 12 vaccines, some of which are given over time in multiple doses. The degree to which these vaccines challenge a child's immune system is just a drop in the ocean when compared to the tens of thousands of environmental challenges that babies successfully manage every single day.

:: Vaccinate Your Baby : Importance of Timing ::
 
Top