Muslim Reform Movement

[paarsurrey]

They valued their lifes, freedom and religion over 'tax'? That's the only logical reason i see for them to move to an Islamic Caliphate. They weren't dissapointed, you think they weren't aware of Jizya? Islam was already around for 600 years

I'm saying those people probably didn't know about any extra taxes placed upon them. Travel (and the movement of information with it) was a lot more restricted in medieval times than it is now. Refugees fleeing religious persecution in Europe more than likely didn't know they'd be extorted by the barbarians whose lands they were fleeing to - and wouldn't have found out until they got there.

Which country these days imposes Jizya?
Anybody, please.
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Which country these days imposes Jizya?
Anybody, please.
Regards

These days? None, thankfully. Well, unless you want to count Islamic State and the Pakistani Taliban as countries - but that would be stretching the definition of what a 'country' is. In some cases the abolition of jizya collection coincides with colonisation by European empires. But I notice that the Ottoman Empire abolished the 'jizya' on their on terms in 1856 - simply to replace it with a tax called the "baddal-askari" which was basically the same thing:- a tax levied solely on non-Muslims due to the arbitrary removal of the requirement for them to serve in the military.

 

[paarsurrey]

These days? None, thankfully. Well, unless you want to count Islamic State and the Pakistani Taliban as countries - but that would be stretching the definition of what a 'country' is. In some cases the abolition of jizya collection coincides with colonisation by European empires. But I notice that the Ottoman Empire abolished the 'jizya' on their on terms in 1856 - simply to replace it with a tax called the "baddal-askari" which was basically the same thing:- a tax levied solely on non-Muslims due to the arbitrary removal of the requirement for them to serve in the military.

So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)​

This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)​

No, the prophecy wasn't fulfilled because:

1. Jesus didn't descend "shortly", it wasn't even Jesus himself; it was Christians; and it took over a thousand years which is not "shortly".
2. The imperial powers who took control over Muslim territories were not really "just rulers". They violently suppressed dissent and ruled with an iron fist. They also enacted cruel blasphemy laws and divided nations along sectarian lines which paved the way for today's new round of Muslim sectarianism.

This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?
Regards

Why? MGM didn't do any of that; it was done by foreign powers. The only way MGM influenced Pakistani law was to Sunni Muslims a new theological punching bag for them to aim their laws at. You're giving credit to him he does not deserve - for things he did not do.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pigand abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)

No, the prophecy wasn't fulfilled because:

1. Jesus didn't descend "shortly", it wasn't even Jesus himself; it was Christians; and it took over a thousand years which is not "shortly".
2. The imperial powers who took control over Muslim territories were not really "just rulers". They violently suppressed dissent and ruled with an iron fist. They also enacted cruel blasphemy laws and divided nations along sectarian lines which paved the way for today's new round of Muslim sectarianism.

paarsurrey said: ↑This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?
Regards

A Greased Scotsman said:

Why? MGM didn't do any of that; it was done by foreign powers. The only way MGM influenced Pakistani law was to Sunni Muslims a new theological punching bag for them to aim their laws at. You're giving credit to him he does not deserve - for things he did not do.

Who does on mean by MGM? Please
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Who does on mean by MGM? Please
Regards

Oops. I meant to say "MGA". I'm just using Ghulam's intialised title (well I was trying to) because I wasn't wanting to type "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" every single time I referred to him. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Muslim,Bukhari and Ishaq are not Quran.
Regards

The post you just quote-mined from was a bit more expansive than that. I specifically said that the hadith (which those verses are!) and the Quran justified use of violence in exacting jizya monies. You deliberately excluded my Quran reference to make it seem as though I claimed the hadith verses were from the Quran. That is flagrantly dishonest. Here's what I said; in full:

The Qu'ran and hadith advocate violence against religious minorities who don't want to be financially discriminated against.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Muslim (19:4294) - "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (53:386) - "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."

Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

If you have any integrity you'd apologise for misrepresenting what I said.

 

[leibowde84]

So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)​

This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?
Regards

Most of that prophecy was patently false though. Nobody was rich. Jesus wasn't a ruler, he was a prophet (according to Islam I believe), and he had no official authority during his life. Seems like Muhammad might have gotten some parts wrong.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Seems like Muhammad might have gotten some parts wrong.

Imagine that...

 

[paarsurrey]

Most of that prophecy was patently false though. Nobody was rich. Jesus wasn't a ruler, he was a prophet (according to Islam I believe), and he had no official authority during his life. Seems like Muhammad might have gotten some parts wrong.

You got it wrong. Regards

 

[suncowiam]

This seems fantastic to me. A group of Muslim scholars (albeit from "the West"), who are addressing the problems of modern Islam, and seem to be addressing those problems honestly!

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7009/muslim-reform-movement

I'm especially interested in hearing what the Muslims at RF think about this declaration, but of course everyone can pile on

(I have to confess they had me when they mentioned the UN Declaration of Human Rights.)

Ah, religioners arguing with logic. What an oxymoron?!?

 

[leibowde84]

You got it wrong. Regards

What specifically?

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)

This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?

What specifically?

The prophecies in religion are fulfilled in religious terms not necessarily in scientific terms. With the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the concept of war for conversion to one's religion has finished so has the imposition of Jizya. If there is right of freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of opinion then Islam wins the hearts of people with its strong and reasonable arguments and signs, it never favored compulsion in religion.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)

This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?

The prophecies in religion are fulfilled in religious terms not necessarily in scientific terms. With the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the concept of war for conversion to one's religion has finished so has the imposition of Jizya. If there is right of freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of opinion then Islam wins the hearts of people with its strong and reasonable arguments and signs, it never favored compulsion in religion.

Does every body here agree with the above?
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Does every body here agree with the above?
Regards

No. You're still ascribing credit for events to your sect's founder that he doesn't deserve because he didn't actually have a hand in them.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The prophecies in religion are fulfilled in religious terms not necessarily in scientific terms.

What does this even mean?

 

[icehorse]

paarsurrey said: ↑
So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet of Allah(SAW) said:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah . Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)

This also in a sense confirm, I believe, the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah or Jesus son of Mary. Right?

The prophecies in religion are fulfilled in religious terms not necessarily in scientific terms. With the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the concept of war for conversion to one's religion has finished so has the imposition of Jizya. If there is right of freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of opinion then Islam wins the hearts of people with its strong and reasonable arguments and signs, it never favored compulsion in religion.

Regards

Wait. Are you saying Islam has never favored compulsion in religion? What history book are you using?

 

[MARCELLO]

So, there is no Jizya imposed, in any country of the world, these days. In other words in a sense, I believe, it confirms the truthful prophecy of Muhammad.

So,what had been done on the name of jizya for centuries was against Islam,correct?

 

[paarsurrey]

So,what had been done on the name of jizya for centuries was against Islam,correct?

I will discuss Jizya in the times of Muhammad, the first phase of Islam when Islam was founded, or in the present times - the second phase of Islam Reformation what the topic is.
Regards

 

[MARCELLO]

I will discuss Jizya in the times of Muhammad, the first phase of Islam when Islam was founded, or in the present times - the second phase of Islam Reformation what the topic is.
Regards

It was not mine but your quotation. But I have to repeat, was the ottoman empire the khaliffa of the khaliffa was wrong or not?

I am from Croatia ,brother,have not you ever worried how the turks of ottoman empire gained so much blondies in their gene stock? Maybe something else....
History hurts but lets not forget the truth.Yes ,it happened centuries ago,but it did happen.

Jizya issues of Mohammed times is still not very clear,but certainly jizya of muslim ottamans is still a nightmare. That's why and how massacre of Bosnians started. Yes,I was there,seen,been,lived it.