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Neat Video Explaining the Evidence of Our Relationship To the Other Great Apes

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why does it matter whether there is a test or not? What is the point? If God wanted us to be something, then they could have easily made us that way naturally, rather than making it a "test" for us. What does God have to gain from testing his creation?
Who more than Adam pbuh had a right to ask this question.

God is a Creator, He is constantly creating. He is able to create mind blowing Worlds beyond our comprehension, where his creation can live for eternity, never get ill etc. But why should everyone be allowed to enter such a place? Would you like to live their with Hitler, Stalin or Saddam Hussein as neighbours?

This life is a testing ground, where people are given rules to follow or reject. Adam pbuh made a mistake and repented. It was always God's plan to let Adam and his progeny inhabit the Earth, taking over from previous creations. Adam pbuh took his fall from grace with humility and repented. He was forgiven by God, but Satan did not repent, rather he blamed Adam and refused to repent to God.

This is the first lesson for mankind. Will humans admit to their mistakes and turn to God or will they choose to be arrogant like Satan?

Very well, I'll watch the video and give a play-by-play response.

5:21 - after saying what amounts to "God doesn't need anything" while still repeatedly saying "God wants you to...", the video outright tells a falsehood. It says "there is no compulsion in religion". That is a lie. Telling people that they will suffer eternally, or that they are inferior people, for not praising a particular deity, you are essentially making an attempt to compel them to do so.
As believers we are absolutely sure of 3 destinations once we die. 1 is Hell, so you can't blame such videos to have a tone of warning about them. Even within strict communities you can choose not to believe in your heart, and just go through the motions of prayer, fasting etc. What that lady is experiencing should be of her own free will, as there truly is no compulsion in Religion, but neither are the gates of Heaven open to disbelievers.

As for the Catholic man, I don't believe Jesus pbuh banned his followers from marrying and having families. Christians don't really listen to what Jesus pbuh had to say, rather they listen to people who never met him, and rely upon Church doctrines and traditions.

End of video: the video can be summed up as "God doesn't need anything from you" without actually answering the question of "why did God create anything anyway". There is a fundamental and obvious contradiction the video is clearly missing: a truly complete God that doesn't want or need anything also doesn't need or want to create existence in the first place. The fact that God created existence absolutely demonstrates that God must have limits or needs or desires, otherwise there would never have been a creation in the first place. The video says so itself: "But look at what Allah just did; he said everyone is going to die, which means no one's left to honour Allah and no one's left to glorify Allah, and Allah still owns it." If it makes no difference to Allah whether there is life or no life, then why was life created to begin with? Life can surely serve no purpose whatsoever to a being that is literally all things and all powerful - it cannot, by definition, be fulfilling any desire, aim or want of such a being. Thus, the Allah this video speaks of cannot possibly exist. Either Allah isn't a perfect being and created life for some purpose, or Allah is a perfect being and life shouldn't either exist. Logically, no such being makes any kind of sense.
Allah swt created us so we may benefit from the World to come. Billions have accepted the invitation and I for one look forward to joining them. Atheists can live their lives to the full right here on Earth and not complain when they return to God. win win situation for all.

Again, this is just another re-assertion. "God made us, so we should be thankful", but if God is all-powerful there is no need to be thanked. This whole existence literally took no effort on their part, and the thanks would be just as meaningless to them. A truly perfect, omnipotent being wouldn't want or require thanks or praise or glory or prayer.
He created us and gave us a set of rules to follow. He doesn't need us, rather we need Him. Using our free will we can rationalise things as you've done and negate to follow or choose to follow as Billions have and continue to do so.


And how to you prove whether or not something comes from God? How do you I'm not God and these posts I am making are my true doctrine?
Well the book given to Muslims contains signs, many many signs showing it comes from a higher being.

Science tells us the most likely model for the start of the Universe is something termed the Big bang, following rapid expansion and cosmic gases. There are other theories, and we can argue to and fro on technical terms/different theories, leading to stalling of this discussion.

Using the model Science mentions, we read the following verses in the Qur'an:

The Big Bang


Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

The word "ratq" translated as "sewn to" means "mixed in each, blended" in the Arabic vernacular. It is used to refer to two different substances that make up a whole. The phrase "we unstitched" is the verb "fataqa" in Arabic and implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of things that are sewn to one another. The sprouting of a seed from the soil is one of the actions to which this verb is applied.


Expanding Universe:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.


Cosmic Gas:

Scientists today are able to observe the formation of stars from a hot gas cloud. Formation from a warm mass of gas also applies to the creation of the universe. The creation of the universe as described in the Qur'an confirms this scientific discovery in the following verse:

He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)

The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "dukhanun," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe.

Below is a site that uses over 50 translations of the meaning of the original Arabic text, so you can check the verses for yourself:

There are many other signs I could mention, but this is sufficient for now. These are not to sell you Islam, but are given so you can see why some people are convinced the 7th Century Arabs could not possibly have known these things, and accept this is revelation from a Spiritual source beyond our understanding.


al-Fatihah 1:1
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Continued....

Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
SOURCE: LGBT in Islam - Wikipedia

Is this or is this not something that the Prophet said?

Your link carries a passage from the Qur'an. No Hadith can over ride the Qur'an:

"And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful." Qur'an 4:15

Like I said, what people do in the privacy of their on homes is between them and God. How likely is it that 4 witnesses are going to be around to witness the act of sexual penetration, much less to then go and testify against the accused.

I'm sure there are many Muslims far more versed in the Qur'an than you are who would do just those very things. I'm not saying their interpretation is correct, I'm saying that the very idea that "Unless you interpret the holy text THIS way rather than THIS way, you are not interpreting it correctly" is always a losing argument. You have absolutely no way of determining whose interpretation is truly more accurate or correct, because religions by-and-large don't really care about personal preference or interpretation - they demand faith, and little else. And on the basis of faith, any interpretation can be considered as good as almost any other interpretation. This is why I have little patience for the "no true Muslim/Christian/Jew/Buddhist/whatever" argument when it applies to things that are almost entirely a matter of interpretation.
The vast majority of Muslims live outside of Countries that punish homosexuals according to their interpretation of the texts. These issues in no way stop people living their lives and conforming to what God requires from us.


You say that, but if that were true there would be no need for Islam to propagate itself through indoctrination. Unless you sincerely raise you children in an entirely religiously neutral environment, do not teach them about Islam (or teach it in a comparative way along with numerous other religions), you cannot be said to genuinely believe that "Blind faith" is forbidden. When families threaten their children with being ostracized if they don't adhere to their beliefs, that is not the action of people who wish to foster rationality and inquiry. It is the mindset of close-minded, fearful, indoctrinated people, no better than a cult.
Like the majority of Muslims I am convinced of my faith and don't want my children walking into the fire. I show them the many many signs in the Qur'an. They have watched science programs related to DNA, the Animal Kingdom and the Universe. They can see design all around them and are happy to call themselves Muslims. What schools teach about Evolution and common ancestry does not impact Islamic beliefs.


Tell me do you/would you raise your child not to accept Islam?
The evidence is too strong for them to reject faith. They may change their minds when they they are older, but I hope they won't.

At the end of the day, there will always be religion and unbelievers, we just have to accept nothings going to change and get along as best as possible.
Peace
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And I'm supposed to believe that? There is only one reason to be deliberately ignorant of a multiple evidence observation and that is blind faith

Darwin published origin of species over 150 years ago. Why do you keep insisting that progress in evolution research stopped a century and a half ago?

The proof has been provided, many times over. No ones fault but your own if you deliberately ignore it.
Darwin had no idea how complex a single self replicating cell was. He thought it a blob that contained limited hereditary material. If he knew the truth, he would have been opening his Bible and asking for forgiveness.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The usual evo talking points. You can't use man cooking the books to prove evolution. It must happen naturally. They might talk about those things but eh ey will not offer any evidence as to HOW it is possible. Virus will not be a mechanism for a change of species. It might be responsible for the species to become extinct.
No-one's cooking the books, and without evidence science wouldn't even consider it.
Retroviruses have been known for decades. They add DNA to the host genome, why would this be unable to affect a change?
Without your indoctrination into evolution being science, you might be able to think, study and analyze without the constraints of a theory over 100 years old and still can't be proved.
The theory has been studied, expanded and tested extensively over those 100 years and has only become more robust. I don't understand your objection to it. Argument from ignorance, personal incredulity?
Darwin had no idea how complex a single self replicating cell was. He thought it a blob that contained limited hereditary material. If he knew the truth, he would have been opening his Bible and asking for forgiveness.
I think he would have endeavored to study the mechanism's involved. He was not one to throw up his hands and declare something magic.
 

Muslim-UK

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Premium Member
I think he would have endeavored to study the mechanism's involved. He was not one to throw up his hands and declare something magic.
Atheists still believe in Abiogenesis; all life started from proteins formed from a primordial soup 3.5 - 3.9 Billion years ago. This process formed the first self replicating living cell. What do we know about the structure of a cell today?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Some unbelievers will tell you that you are going to hell for not worshiping Jesus. What if they're right?
I would tell them, man worship is a Pagan concept. The Romans simply replaced Mithras with Jesus pbuh and secondly, no original texts survive, so we have no real clue about what Jesus pbuh actually taught. Everyone is welcome to use what is found in the NT to support their assertions, this is the reason why Christianity is so diverse on core issues.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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Premium Member
Why didn't Allah just make us better people?

You mean make us soul less robots or something?

We are told that God can only do good. Is that what you mean by a soulless robot?

This robot argument comes up whenever we are discussing creating people that desire to do only what is good and right, and why alleged gods that are said to be so concerned with our behavior didn't create the kind of person it wanted. How is a person that only wants to do good an inferior person to the kind willing to do harm or living a less authentic life than such a person?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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Premium Member
We are examining what's to lose and thus far I see very little.

Then you haven't studied the rebuttal to Pascal's Wager. Here are some of the ways that you can lose your bet:
  • What if God exists and is offended by those who only believe because they are hedging their bet?
  • What if the Christians are right and you meet Jesus on judgment day?
  • What reincarnation occurs, and you come back as a maggot for that attitude?
  • What if there is a god that rewards people of reason and punishes faith based thought?
  • What if the universe is run by a demon that punishes those that believe in gods?
You said that if you were wrong, you couldn't lose. Do you see now how many different ways that you can lose? Any comment? Are you willing to agree that these options are also logically possible?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This robot argument comes up whenever we are discussing creating people that desire to do only what is good and right, and why alleged gods that are said to be so concerned with our behavior didn't create the kind of person it wanted. How is a person that only wants to do good an inferior person to the kind willing to do harm or living a less authentic life than such a person?
Those non believers who do good works in this life are rewarded, so I fail to see the problem. Likewise those believers who outwardly do good, whilst inwardly harbouring hate will be punished accordingly when they return to Allah swt.
 

Muslim-UK

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Premium Member
Then you haven't studied the rebuttal to Pascal's Wager. Here are some of the ways that you can lose your bet:
  • What if God exists and is offended by those who only believe because they are hedging their bet?
  • What if the Christians are right and you meet Jesus on judgment day?
  • What reincarnation occurs, and you come back as a maggot for that attitude?
  • What if there is a god that rewards people of reason and punishes faith based thought?
  • What if the universe is run by a demon that punishes those that believe in gods?
You said that if you were wrong, you couldn't lose. Do you see now how many different ways that you can lose? Any comment? Are you willing to agree that these options are also logically possible?
Let's go through your options and offer a very brief rebuttal to each:

1: I have evidences to know what God wants. I posted some verses in post 121 showing Qur'an could only have come from God.
2: I debate Christians and see little to no evidence for their claims. I'll create a thread soon, and you can see for yourself.
3: No evidence showing Tens of Millions of people have been reincarnated. Family traits and genes are poor evidences.
4: Bring evidence to support your theory or post in the Conspiracy Theory section.
5: Bring evidence to support your theory or post in the Conspiracy Theory section.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Where is the test for mankind if we are all created perfectly to do good works?

What use does mankind have for such a test?

We should give thanks

Agreed, but a god belief is not necessary for that. Gratitude need not be directed. I am an atheist who is grateful to be alive and for the life he has, but the gratitude has no object.

Did we follow his guidance and use our gifts for good, or did we use our hands to do evil.

That's one of the elements of rebuttal to Pascal's Wager. Suppose that there is an afterlife, but not one imagined by any religion. Suppose it involves a judgment as some of the religions suggest, but that you are judged according to how you used the gifts granted you, especially reason. Instead of using that faculty as intended, you chose an earthly religion - usually the one most popular where you were born, often upon having a holy booked tossed in your crib - and you suppressed reason and chose irrational thinking (faith) instead. That might not work out so well. You might be judged unworthy - ungrateful, even - for the gifts given and disregarded. Is that not possible, too?

"I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them" - Galileo Galilei
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure, but I believe the trial he's talking about is the Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District trial.


Interesting, but not surprising, that the creationists at the trial were dumbstruck by this news, but perhaps we have an intrepid creationist here who would like to take up the challenge and show where the evidence fails.

Anyone?

I'm not impressed. This proves nothing. I say, So what?
 

Muslim-UK

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Premium Member
What use does mankind have for such a test?
The test is created by God to reward those who give thanks to their Creator. We are on Earth performing our works, and will be paid at the end of our lives.

Agreed, but a god belief is not necessary for that. Gratitude need not be directed. I am an atheist who is grateful to be alive and for the life he has, but the gratitude has no object.
You do good works for your fellow humans, and give thanks for being alive and well. You are rewarded by God, even though you don't believe in Him. Great is it not?

That's one of the elements of rebuttal to Pascal's Wager. Suppose that there is an afterlife, but not one imagined by any religion. Suppose it involves a judgment as some of the religions suggest, but that you are judged according to how you used the gifts granted you, especially reason. Instead of using that faculty as intended, you chose an earthly religion - usually the one most popular where you were born, often upon having a holy booked tossed in your crib - and you suppressed reason and chose irrational thinking (faith) instead. That might not work out so well. You might be judged unworthy - ungrateful, even - for the gifts given and disregarded. Is that not possible, too?
As before I use the Qur'an as my guide book and know it is from God. To prove it's not the truth, you would have to provide evidence supporting your claims. A book or whatever it may be, so I can check the claims and see if it holds more truth. We can spend our whole lives dreaming up different scenarios around the unseen and purpose of life. Our lives are relatively short, so bring something concrete to the table.

"I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them" - Galileo Galilei
I couldn't agree more. The Qur'an tells us to use our brains and examine the evidences all around us. Blind faith is forbidden.

Allah swt praises people who use their mind:

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding - Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], “Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.” Qur'an 3:190-191

About the Quran, Allah swt Says:

[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they (i.e. people) might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. Qur'an 38:29


“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth” Qur'an 41:53
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Darwin had no idea how complex a single self replicating cell was. He thought it a blob that contained limited hereditary material. If he knew the truth, he would have been opening his Bible and asking for forgiveness.

The evidence all around you contradicts that prediction. People who know now what Darwin could not have known then are routinely atheistic.

Furthermore, complexity is not an argument for a god - something Darwin probably understood. It is a logical error (special pleading) to suggest that a cell is too complex to exist undesigned and uncreated, and then posit the most complex undesigned and uncreated entity imaginable to account for it. In so doing, you have magnified the problem by untold orders of magnitude, not solved it.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheists still believe in Abiogenesis; all life started from proteins formed from a primordial soup 3.5 - 3.9 Billion years ago. This process formed the first self replicating living cell. What do we know about the structure of a cell today?
Theists believe in abiogenesis, too, they just posit no mechanism save magic poofing.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The evidence all around you contradicts that prediction. People who know now what Darwin could not have known then are routinely atheistic.
There are plenty of Religious Scientists around.

Furthermore, complexity is not an argument for a god - something Darwin probably understood. It is a logical error (special pleading) to suggest that a cell is too complex to exist undesigned and uncreated, and then posit the most complex undesigned and uncreated entity imaginable to account for it.
Atheists Scientist have no concrete evidence, just a number of theories. Mind blowing complexity shows a power behind the design and creation, a intelligent conscious entity with unlimited wisdom and knowledge, much as God describes Himself in the Qur'an.

You could come together with every Scientist on the planet, create a single cell from absolutely nothing and prove me wrong.

In so doing, you have magnified the problem by untold orders of magnitude, not solved it.
How so?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Theists believe in abiogenesis, too, they just posit no mechanism save magic poofing.
Vedanta is linked with Hinduism right? If so please explain your spiritual/religious beliefs, and then I'll be happy to address your statement.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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Premium Member
Examples of how the commandments benefit us: Refraining from Alcohol protects the Heart and Liver

How Red Wine Helps the Heart

Prayer benefits our body and mind

"patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms" Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

This is the original study if you care to examine its set-up and the numerical results.

giving in charity benefits the poor.

We don't need commandments to know that, nor to be charitable. Wouldn't you be charitable without them?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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Premium Member
What is the purpose of life according the atheist religion?

There is no atheist religion.

"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes." - Amanda Marcotte
 
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