Is atheism a religion?

[Trailblazer]

I should be easy for you to state just two predictions that Baha’u’llah made. Clear, concise, unambiguous predictions.

Why are you still asking me for those? I already gave them to you. If you don’t like those predictions you can look at some others.

Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass. If you want to know when and how He predicted them, you will have to read the book cited below, which is online to read.

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

From: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

When that didn't work out, you made more generalized "guidelines".

When that did not work out for what? I was not trying to convince you of anything. You asked for the predictions Baha’u’llah made. I gave you those.

Those were not generalized guidelines, those were ways Baha’u’llah told us to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

Character is subjective. In any event, there is no way to truly know the character of Baha'u'llah other than his writings and the writings of his disciples.

Good character is not a subjective thing. It is based upon good deeds. It is not the Writings of Baha’u’llah that we look to in order to know about His character. It is other books written by those who knew Him, books that delineate Baha’i history.The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892. There are other sources that tell us about His life and mission.

Here someone writes of the "character of David Koresh:

Sermons*David Koresh: An American Messiah?

David Koresh is Messiah, being first amongst men to be born into God Consciousness. Having been born under the first creation into this consciousness, he was established as a sign post (sic) before this creation, to show Adam’s race a way out should they fall short of the standard set at the beginning. Hence the phrase “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.” As a matter of fact, Adam was created like unto God the Son at the conclusion of the first creation, which is the material image of God. God the Son, of the first creation, has been raised up from death for the salvation of man. This time however he is to be made Messiah over the coming kingdom of God on earth. The Spirit of God is to dwell in all it’s citizens.[3]

Anyone can write anything about anyone, but what was the life and mission and what were the “fruits” of the mission of Koresh? What did he contribute to the betterment of humanity? NOTHING.

“Koresh came from a dysfunctional family background and was a member, and later a leader, of the Shepherd's Rod, a reform movement led by Victor Houteff that arose from within the Seventh-day Adventist Church......

When Koresh was 22 years old, he had an illegal sexual relationship with a 15-year-old girl who became pregnant.[7] He claimed to have become a born-again Christian in the Southern Baptist Church and soon joined his mother's church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There he became infatuated with the pastor's daughter and, while praying for guidance, he opened his eyes and allegedly found the Bible open at Isaiah 34:16, stating that "none should want for her mate"; convinced this was a sign from God, he approached the pastor and told him that God wanted him to have his daughter for a wife. The pastor threw him out, and when he continued to persist with his pursuit of the daughter he was expelled from the congregation.[7]......

Koresh was alleged to be involved in unproven multiple incidents of child abuse and sexual abuse.[17] Koresh's doctrine of the House of David[18] did lead to "marriages" with both married and single women in the group purportedly with at least one underage girl. The underage girl was Michelle Jones, the younger sister of Koresh's legal wife Rachel and the daughter of lifelong Branch Davidians Perry and Mary Belle Jones. Koresh allegedly had sex with Michelle when she was thirteen, evidently with the consent of the Joneses. .....
Koresh fathered multiple children by different women in the group. His House of David doctrine was based on a purported revelation that involved the procreation of 24 children by chosen women in the community. These 24 children were to serve as the ruling elders over the millennium after the return of Christ.” David Koresh - Wikipedia​

By contrast, Baha’u’llah has been a Light to the World. There is evidence of that, it is not an empty claim.

Light to the World

You mentioned Baha'u'llah's "Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth)"

What is his revelation? It must be his words, oral and written. His revelations and his writings are one and the same. Here is a sample if his writings...

David Koresh wrote similar mumbo jumbo which was very meaningful and insightful and spiritual to his followers.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is not what He wrote. Those are called the Writings. The Revelation is what He did, everything that surrounds His 40 year mission on earth, from 1853-1892 when He died.The ministry of Baha'u'llah from1853-1892, is covered in God Passes By.

The only thing that could really set Baha'u'llah apart would be his predictions. General comments are not predictions. Try as you might, you have been unable to present even one clear concise prediction that could not have been based on common knowledge.

Those were not general comments, they were warnings. Was common knowledge in 1869 that Napoleon III would fall from power in 1870, when he was at the height of his glory? It was common knowledge in 1869 that there would be two major world wars? No, nobody knew either one of those things.

So now who is making a big deal out of Baha’u’llah’s predictions? It was never ME who made a big deal out of those. I did not even know anything about those before I became a Baha’i. I became a Baha’i based upon the teachings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha. At that time I believed Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God but it was no big deal to me because I did not care about God.

Your Baha'u'llah is no different than Jim Jones or David Koresh or Joseph Smith or any of hundreds (thousands?) of would be, wanna be, prophets/messengers.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my entire life. First, there is no comparison between the life and mission of Baha’u’llah and those false prophets. Baha’u’llah selflessly sacrificed everything forthe Cause of God. Before that He led an exemplary life and He was considered the Father of the Poor. That is the polar opposite of Koresh and Jones, who were selfish and perverted. Joseph Smith was a good man, but He was not a Messenger of God, nor did he claim to be. The Mormon religion is based upon Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith.

Another little detail is that none of these men fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ/Messiah, but Baha’u’llah fulfilled all those prophecies: Thief in the Night

But facts and reality never get in the way of believers of cults.

Lol, the Baha’i Faith is a widely recognized world religion, not a cult. It has been in reference books as a world religion at least sine I became a Baha’i in 1970.

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world.
Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

 

[ecco]

Why are you still asking me for those? I already gave them to you.

I asked for clear, concise predictions that could not have been based on common knowledge. You responded with a couple of generalized rambling statements.

Following is another of your messengers "clear, concise predictions"

22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.

Baha’u’llah believed that man could transform copper into gold. Years later his sheeples would justify this "prediction" by referencing the atomic bomb.

Anyone can write anything about anyone, but what was the life and mission and what were the “fruits” of the mission of Koresh? What did he contribute to the betterment of humanity? NOTHING.

What did Baha’u’llah contribute to the betterment of humanity?
One more religious cult.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is not what He wrote. Those are called the Writings. The Revelation is what He did,

All he did was create one more religious cult. Just like Jim Jones and David Koresh.

Those were not general comments, they were warnings. Was common knowledge in 1869 that Napoleon III would fall from power in 1870, when he was at the height of his glory?

A vague warning is a general comment.

"For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast to this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. "​

Precise: Where does it say 1870?
Not based on common knowledge: Napolean had survived several attempted assassinations. Prussia had defeated Austria and France had declared war on Prussia.

So now who is making a big deal out of Baha’u’llah’s predictions?

You did until I pointed out they were no better than Nostradamus' BS.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my entire life. First, there is no comparison between the life and mission of Baha’u’llah and those false prophets. Baha’u’llah selflessly sacrificed everything forthe Cause of God.

You refer to them as "those false prophets". Everyone outside of Bahai refers to Baha’u’llah as a false prophet. David Koresh also sacrificed everything for the cause of God. All same-o, same-o.

Another little detail is that none of these men fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ/Messiah, but Baha’u’llah fulfilled all those prophecies:

Biblical prophecies are worth as much as Baha’u’llah's predictions - nothing. Because there are too vague to have any real meaning.

In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world.

Scientology is recognized as a religion. Branch Davidians are recognized as a religion. As I stated earlier: same-o, same-o.

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked for clear, concise predictions that could not have been based on common knowledge. You responded with a couple of generalized rambling statements.

No, those were precise predictions and they came to pass just as predicted.

Trailblazer said: ↑
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.

ecco: Baha’u’llah believed that man could transform copper into gold. Years later his sheeples would justify this "prediction" by referencing the atomic bomb.

Another prediction that came to pass years later.

What did Baha’u’llah contribute to the betterment of humanity?
One more religious cult.

No, one more world religion, one that will take eventually transform all of humanity and change the face of the planet. The fact that YOU don’t believe it and YOU won’t see it in your lifetime amounts to nothing more than a hill of beans. Reality is reality. The fact that God exists is the reality whether you believe it or not. Beliefs do not create reality, nor does evidence. Reality just is and we either discover it or not. Most people do not discover it.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”​

In this new age, the narrow gate is the Baha’i Faith and it is narrow because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning.

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel. That is human nature.

Eventually it won’t matter because in the distant future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah and enter through the same gate, the gate that leads to life. However, those that enter now will have a huge reward in this life and after they die, because they made the effort to look for the narrow gate and they had the courage to walk through it.

As far as betterment is concerned, Baha’u’llah gave us the blueprint instructions to build the new world order. It is under construction right now, would you but know it. If you watch any TV news you can see the old world order being tolled up at an ever-increasing pace.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

All he did was create one more religious cult. Just like Jim Jones and David Koresh.

Believe whatever blarney you want to. Obviously you do not know what Baha’u’llah did, you just think you know. Anyone who cannot SEE the difference between Jim Jones and David Koresh and Baha’u’llah has a serious problem in evidence analysis; either that or they never looked at the evidence.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Those were not general comments, they were warnings. Was common knowledge in 1869 that Napoleon III would fall from power in 1870, when he was at the height of his glory?

Ecco: A vague warning is a general comment.

That was not a vague warning. It was a specific prediction and it came to pass.

Who else made a prediction like that? NOBODY, only Baha’u’llah knew that Napoleon III would fall from power, since Baha’u’llah had all knowledge.

"For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast to this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. "
Precise: Where does it say 1870?

Why should He say the exact year, because you expect Him to? He said Napoleon III would fall from power and He did. That is a prediction that came true.

Not based on common knowledge: Napolean had survived several attempted assassinations. Prussia had defeated Austria and France had declared war on Prussia.

So what? Youa re deflecting. It was not common knowledge that “thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands,” Only Baha’u’llah KNEW THAT.

Trailblazer said: ↑
So now who is making a big deal out of Baha’u’llah’s predictions?

ecco: You did until I pointed out they were no better than Nostradamus' BS.

You asked for predictions and I posted them. I never ever made a big deal out of Baha’u’llah’s predictions but if you can present the post where I did I will admit to that. . Good luck with that.

Accusing people of things they did not do is unjust, unless you have evidence.

I said that the predictions are part of the evidence but they are not even considered evidence by Baha’u’llah because He did not make any predictions in order to PROVE who He was. They were simply some predictions He made embedded in His Writings.

You refer to them as "those false prophets". Everyone outside of Bahai refers to Baha’u’llah as a false prophet. David Koresh also sacrificed everything for the cause of God. All same-o, same-o.

It does not matter what people believe, it only matters what is true. Beliefs do not create reality. Narrow is the way and few will find it. It is that way in the beginning, every time a new religion is revealed.

I guess you really do not like to look at evidence. David Koresh did not sacrifice squat for humanity, he was a sex offender and child abuser. What a joke to even compare him to Baha’u’llah, what a joke.

Biblical prophecies are worth as much as Baha’u’llah's predictions - nothing. Because there are too vague to have any real meaning.

Some of the Biblical prophecies are very specific, and since Baha’u’llah fulfills all of them – specific and general -- that ALONE is evidence enough that He was the Return of Christ and the Messiah. Thief in the Night

People who really want to know the truth search for truth and find it, the others will continue to live in the dark and they will fall by the wayside. God does not care.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145​

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339​

Scientology is recognized as a religion. Branch Davidians are recognized as a religion. As I stated earlier: same-o, same-o.

It does not matter what people recognize as a religion. They are NOT a religion in the true sense of the word unless they were revealed by God to a Messenger of God.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81 ​

 

[MarkP]

I realize atheism doesn't claim to be a religion. And I'm only referring to those atheists who feel they must convert God-believers to atheism, or else these God-believers will destroy civilization.

There is an intensity of emotion, an anger, an urgency in these atheists' interactions that remind me of fundamentalist religious adherents. As if the same religious impulses and zeal are operational in both.

That said, I agree that it has bad effects on society when people reject provable knowledge about the physical universe obtained via the scientific method, especially when large groups do so.

Also, the kind of God you believe in matters. A God who commits genocide on innocents, and who commands angels and humans to do likewise; belief in this kind of God will obviously have bad consequences for society. Also, a God who judges small transgressions by torture and execution. Also, a God who promotes an infer role in society for women, for example. Or promotes slavery.

Also, merely claiming that there is intelligent design without demonstrating at least a possible mechanism that the intelligent designer could interact with the physical atoms and molecules to implement his/her design; this is not science, nor is it responsible. For example, you might suppose that the intelligent designer fiddles around with the motions of atoms. But would he/she violate the laws of physics in doing so? There is no known mechanism for this fiddling. And how could anyone, even a super-intellect, possibly know the consequences of doing such a thing? The biochemical systems of life are simply too complex for this kind of predictive power. And why would God even want to micromanage the universe at the atomic level anyway?

Also, claiming that God provides a moral basis for society is false. Especially when the holy books of the revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are fiction, and clearly and provably contradict science, archaeology, document analysis, and logic.

This world contains pain and suffering. Claiming that God is good but created bad is illogical. Claiming that God is good but he/she allowed for pain and suffering implies God is not so good after all. And claiming that people being tortured to death and animals eating each other alive is desirable for a higher good is an offensive idea. And claiming that God is both good and bad means God is not God.

So within these constraints, atheists should allow for belief in God. But note that such a God has no effect whatsoever on the physical world at all, and his/her influence can only enter into our minds to bring goodness and justice and beauty and joy and peace. Why should anyone object to a God like that?

I would prefer if atheists would limit their critiques of belief in God to critiques of the specific ideas such as I've outlined above. And that they would be calm and rational and polite in their demeanor. I was needlessly a Christian for 30 years because I was offended by the rage of atheists, and so, rejected their views out of hand.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ MarkP

Hi Mark. Welcome to the forum.
Did you have a comment to make regarding what dmap said?

 

[ecco]

No, one more world religion, one that will take eventually transform all of humanity and change the face of the planet.

No different than any other religion.

If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Why do you single out atheists? Do you think Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindiis accept your Ballula?

Eventually it won’t matter because in the distant future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah and enter through the same gate, the gate that leads to life.

Uh huh. EVERYONE!

Believe whatever blarney you want to. Obviously you do not know what Baha’u’llah did, you just think you know. Anyone who cannot SEE the difference between Jim Jones and David Koresh and Baha’u’llah has a serious problem in evidence analysis; either that or they never looked at the evidence.

Anyone who doesn't see the similarities is dangerously naive.

Who else made a prediction like that? NOBODY, only Baha’u’llah knew that Napoleon III would fall from power, since Baha’u’llah had all knowledge. Why should He say the exact year,

Without a year, better yet a month or date, without circumstances, it's not a prediction. In any case, it wasn't a prediction, it was more of a threat. You come over to my side or you will die.

So what? Youa re deflecting. It was not common knowledge that “thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands,” Only Baha’u’llah KNEW THAT.

Naive or ill informed? Nappy was going up against a major power. There were only two outcomes: Victory or defeat.

I said that the predictions are part of the evidence but they are not even considered evidence by Baha’u’llah because He did not make any predictions in order to PROVE who He was. They were simply some predictions He made embedded in His Writings.

And without precise predictions, Balulla was just another guy who could write a lot of mumbo jumbo. There's nothing special about him at all.

I guess you really do not like to look at evidence. David Koresh did not sacrifice squat for humanity, he was a sex offender and child abuser. What a joke to even compare him to Baha’u’llah, what a joke.

David Koresh's followers would think Ballula is a joke.

Some of the Biblical prophecies are very specific, and since Baha’u’llah fulfills all of them – specific and general -- that ALONE is evidence enough that He was the Return of Christ and the Messiah.

How sad for you that you cannot even show one specific prediction. That alone should convince all but the most naive.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: ↑
If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

ecco: Why do you single out atheists? Do you think Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindiis accept your Ballula?

I said that atheists do not like the idea of Messengers... Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus might not like Baha’u’llah but they do not have the problem with Messengers that atheists have. In fact, they have their own Messengers of their religions.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Believe whatever blarney you want to. Obviously you do not know what Baha’u’llah did, you just think you know. Anyone who cannot SEE the difference between Jim Jones and David Koresh and Baha’u’llah has a serious problem in evidence analysis; either that or they never looked at the evidence.

ecco: Anyone who doesn't see the similarities is dangerously naive.

Talk is cheap. Go ahead and point out the similarities.

And without precise predictions, Balulla was just another guy who could write a lot of mumbo jumbo. There's nothing special about him at all.

What a joke, like the predictions would be enough to prove that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. Any psychic can make predictions that come true, but that does not make them a Messenger of God. I guess logic is not your strong point.

Trailblazer said: ↑

I guess you really do not like to look at evidence. David Koresh did not sacrifice squat for humanity, he was a sex offender and child abuser. What a joke to even compare him to Baha’u’llah, what a joke.

ecco: David Koresh's followers would think Ballula is a joke.

And that would matter exactly WHY? What would that prove? I guess logic is not your strong point.

Hint: What people believe does not create reality.

Trailblazer said: ↑

Some of the Biblical prophecies are very specific, and since Baha’u’llah fulfills all of them – specific and general -- that ALONE is evidence enough that He was the Return of Christ and the Messiah.

ecco: How sad for you that you cannot even show one specific prediction. That alone should convince all but the most naive.

I gave you 30 predictions that Baha’u’llah made. Too bad those are not good enough for you.

 

[Tiapan]

Atheism is the intellectual position that we have one very short opportunity with sentience to appreciate the natural universe and realise that heaven/paradise is right here and now, we are standing in it. Earth is a beautiful jewel in a harsh universe so be grateful for the beauty and diversity we are privelleged to enjoy on the best planet in the western spiral arm of the galaxy. After all what can heaven/paradise have that we do not have better right here and now. One simple rule.... do unto others as you would have them do to you and leave the world in a better place than when you arrived. When your dead, your dead, no after life sorry.
Cheers

 

[Trailblazer]

Atheism is the intellectual position that we have one very short opportunity with sentience to appreciate the natural universe and realise that heaven/paradise is right here and now, we are standing in it. Earth is a beautiful jewel in a harsh universe so be grateful for the beauty and diversity we are privelleged to enjoy on the best planet in the western spiral arm of the galaxy. After all what can heaven/paradise have that we do not have better right here and now. One simple rule.... do unto others as you would have them do to you and leave the world in a better place than when you arrived. When your dead, your dead, no after life sorry.
Cheers

Atheists alike you are very refreshing. I encounter some atheists who are angry and bitter about life and they blame the god they do not believe in. I see no problem with not believing in God. What is most important is how we live our lives, mainly how we treat other people.

I wish I could view life as positively as you do, but unfortunately my life has not been a bowl of cherries, it has been a storehouse of suffering. I am working on trying to improve it but find many roadblocks in my way.

 

[Tiapan]

Atheists alike you are very refreshing. I encounter some atheists who are angry and bitter about life and they blame the god they do not believe in. I see no problem with not believing in God. What is most important is how we live our lives, mainly how we treat other people.

I wish I could view life as positively as you do, but unfortunately my life has not been a bowl of cherries, it has been a storehouse of suffering. I am working on trying to improve it but find many roadblocks in my way.

Life was not meant to be easy but it's appreciation is precious
I have stage 4 cancer but I can still appreciate the beauty all around me
Cheers

 

[Altfish]

Why are you still asking me for those? I already gave them to you. If you don’t like those predictions you can look at some others.

Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass. If you want to know when and how He predicted them, you will have to read the book cited below, which is online to read.

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

Can he let me know what will win the 3:30 at Haydock Park this afternoon; I've got £50 I could put on its nose.

 

[ecco]

Talk is cheap. Go ahead and point out the similarities.

I've already pointed out the similarities between B and Koresh.

But...
They both thought they were Messengers.
They both had and have a following.
They both wrote a lot of religious mumbo jumbo.
They both had multiple wives.
They both "justified" their marriages...

Bahá'u'lláh on Islamic law
Koresh on the Bible​

What a joke, like the predictions would be enough to prove that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God.

If "Any psychic can make predictions that come true"...

1. Why did you bother to mention them at all?
2. Why did you (try) to go into detail about two of them?
3. Why did you list more?

Any psychic can make predictions that come true,

None that really stand up to scrutiny. No psychic, nor your B, predicted 9/11.

Anyone, like your B, can make general pronouncements - those are not predictions.

I guess logic is not your strong point.

You are the one touting predictions for your B. I'm the one showing you your B's predictions are not worthy of being called predictions.

Hint

What people believe does not create reality.

That's one of the few rational things you've said.

I gave you 30 predictions that Baha’u’llah made. Too bad those are not good enough for you.

No. You gave a list of things that you and B's followers try to interpret as predictions.

As I said...Anyone, like your B and Nostradamus and Sylvia Brown (even you and I), can make general pronouncements - those are not predictions. Even the two that you personally selected were just general comments.

It's noteworthy that the only people who believe that B's "predictions" are predictions are Bahai's. Ya think there's a little bit of bias going on there?

 

[ecco]

Can he let me know what will win the 3:30 at Haydock Park this afternoon; I've got £50 I could put on its nose.

Send the £50 to me. I predict you will find a small treasure-filled box under the tallest tree in Nanny Goat Park.

 

[Trailblazer]

Life was not meant to be easy but it's appreciation is precious
I have stage 4 cancer but I can still appreciate the beauty all around me
Cheers

I am sorry to hear about your cancer. Perhaps that is one reason you appreciate life so much?
Everything is a matter of personal perspective and we are all very different...
I like what my friend Tony said on another thread --

#103 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Today at 12:04 AM
"Trailblazer. It is not about judging anyone. We all face our tests and trials and we all see them in our frame of reference.

There is an old saying, 'one mans trash is another mans treasure'. This is true for suffering. One mans suffering is another mans ease.

Its a big subject to pursue, it is a major part of our existence and I will always wish you and all, all the good and happiness in this world and the world to come."​

 

[Trailblazer]

Can he let me know what will win the 3:30 at Haydock Park this afternoon; I've got £50 I could put on its nose.

Maybe He could if He was still alive...

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: ↑
Talk is cheap. Go ahead and point out the similarities.

ecco: I've already pointed out the similarities between B and Koresh.

But...
They both thought they were Messengers.
They both had and have a following.
They both wrote a lot of religious mumbo jumbo.
They both had multiple wives.
They both "justified" their marriages...

Now let me point out the differences:

• Baha’u’llah was a real Messenger of God, Koresh was a fake. How do we know that? There is no evidence that indicates that he ever got a message from God. There is a lot of evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah got messages from God.

• Baha’u’llah has a following of 7 million all over the world which is increasing every year, there are only a handful of people who still follow Koresh in the U.S.

• Baha’u’llah did not write religious mumbo jumbo, he had real teachings and laws that are for the betterment of humanity, Koresh had mumbo jumbo.

• Baha’u’llah did not have to justify more than one wife, that was the custom and he was under Islamic Law that allowed that.

• Baha’u’llah had many wives for their protection as was the custom in those days and in that culture, Koresh had many wives because he was a perverted sex addict who sexually abused children.

If "Any psychic can make predictions that come true"...

1. Why did you bother to mention them at all?
2. Why did you (try) to go into detail about two of them?
3. Why did you list more?

Because you asked. I always answer what is in my posts in case you have not noticed. Go back and look if you want to verify that. I don’t have the time. I only ever said that there is a list of categories of evidence and the predictions were “one category” of evidence; I never said they were the most important part.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Any psychic can make predictions that come true,

ecco: None that really stand up to scrutiny. No psychic, nor your B, predicted 9/11.

I never said that psychics can predict everything but they can predict some things.

Baha’u’llah also predicted what would happen in America and it is unfolding just as He predicted it would.

Anyone, like your B, can make general pronouncements - those are not predictions.

They were predictions, according to the definition.

Prediction: a statement about what you think will happen in the future: PREDICTION | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

They were not pronouncements, according to the definition.

Pronouncement: an official announcement: PRONOUNCEMENT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

You are the one touting predictions for your B. I'm the one showing you your B's predictions are not worthy of being called predictions.

They are not worthy TO YOU, but they are worthy to other people. What does that tell you, logically speaking?

Trailblazer said: ↑

I gave you 30 predictions that Baha’u’llah made. Too bad those are not good enough for you.

ecco: No. You gave a list of things that you and B's followers try to interpret as predictions.

We do not have to TRY to interpret them as predictions.... By definition of prediction they were predictions and they came to pass. The book I cited explains how.

It's noteworthy that the only people who believe that B's "predictions" are predictions are Bahai's. Ya think there's a little bit of bias going on there?

How do you know that those are the only people who believe in Baha’u’llah’s predictions? Just because they do not become Baha’is does not mean they cannot see what that what Baha’u’llah predicted actually happened. This is verifiable history. Baha’u’llah predicted many things that all came to pass. Those are explained in this book: The Promised Day Is Come.

 

[ecco]

Now let me point out the differences:

• Baha’u’llah was a real Messenger of God, Koresh was a fake. How do we know that? There is no evidence that indicates that he ever got a message from God. There is a lot of evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah got messages from God.

What is the Bible? David Koresh and many millions of people believe it is the Word of God. There is indisputable evidence that David Koresh studied the Bible extensively. What Koresh knew about God he got from the Word of God

What evidence do you have regarding how Balulla got his messages from God?

 

[ecco]

Because you asked. I always answer what is in my posts in case you have not noticed. Go back and look if you want to verify that. I don’t have the time. I only ever said that there is a list of categories of evidence and the predictions were “one category” of evidence; I never said they were the most important part.

I asked what evidence you had to lead you to believe he was a true messenger.

You listed:
His Character
His Writings
His Predictions

I pointed out that his character is difficult to ascertain at this late date. However, I subsequently found that he had three wives and then decided he didn't want to live under Islamic law. That does not speak highly of his character. A person of character should have known that polygamy was wrong, regardless of the current laws.

His writings are no different from any of hundreds of religionists and philosophers. You don't attribute messenger status based on writings.

That leaves his predictions. Except that they aren't predictions. Even you could not show that they were.

So, you are 0 for 3.

There is no more reason to give exhalted status to Balulla than there is to give it to David Koresh or Sun Myung Moon.

 

[ecco]

They were predictions, according to the definition.

Prediction: a statement about what you think will happen in the future: PREDICTION | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

They were not pronouncements, according to the definition.

Pronouncement: an official announcement: PRONOUNCEMENT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Now you are just being flat-out disingenuous. All along you've been touting Balula's predictions as one of the things that sets him apart from others.

Now you want to fall back onto: a statement about what you think will happen in the future.

Well, OK.

I predict I am going to spend Christmas day at my daughter's.
I predict it's going to rain in the next five days.​

There, that makes me and Ballaula equal in the area of predictions.


But we both know that's not what you were referring to when you stated that one of the reasons you believed Ballaula was a Messenger was that he made clear, concise predictions of things that could not be known to him at the time.

He didn't. If you want to use the watered-down definition of: a statement about what you think will happen in the future, then his predictions are worthless and it's childish of you to think any different.

 

[ecco]

How do you know that those are the only people who believe in Baha’u’llah’s predictions?

OK, so tell us who else believes them?


ETA: While you're at it, tell us who, besides Bahai's, even considers them to be predictions.