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Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Of course, everyone thinks they are right and will not listen to other ideas. I mean no offense but I have not heard much about the Bahai faith. Would you describe some of your beliefs, please. Especially about the fate of the dead. Do you believe some go directly to heaven or hell? Can the dead see and hear us? Things like that. I would truly like to learn more.
There has been so much written about the soul and the afterlife in the Writings of the Baha'i Faith that it is hard to know where to start, so I will just answer what you just asked and I can explain more later. (I have on my list to answer your post from yesterday where you asked about the dead being raised again, but I have several posts to answer and I try to answer them in the order that they were received.)

I believe that all souls go the afterlife, what I refer to as the spiritual world, but first you need to understand what I believe about the soul.

The soul works through the body while we are alive in a body, but it is the soul that directs human faculties. As outer circumstances are communicated to the soul by the eyes, ears, and brain, the soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself and leads to experiences and distractions and feelings and all kinds of things.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world. Nobody can understand what that will be like before they die because the only reference point we have is the physical world and the physical body.

According to Baha’i beliefs 1 Corinthians 15:12-22 is all about spiritual death, not physical death. Bodies once dead do not rise from graves. Souls leave the body and rise to heaven and take on a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements in that spiritual realm. They then continue to exist for eternity. The souls who are spiritually alive have eternal life so they go to heaven the souls who are spiritually dead go to what is termed hell.

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife).

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”


The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225


Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

I guess I would be considered a Christian because I do believe in Christ and that is usually the definition of "Christian". But my beliefs do not match most of what other Christians believe. Thanks in advance for anything you can offer.
As a Baha'i, I believe in Christ, and that is an absolute requirement for all Baha'is:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 109


But since I am a follower of Baha'u'llah I call myself a Baha'i. Some of my beliefs match what Christians believe and some don't. That is a BIG subject, and I do not want to overwhelm you any more than I probably have already. ;)

Oh I almost forgot to answer your question about whether the dead can hear us. I believe that those souls who are in the spiritual world (thus physically dead) can hear us, because there is no real separation between this world and the spiritual world.

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

I believe that some people in this world can communicate with spirits in the spiritual world. That is not a Baha'i belief, just a belief I picked up from reading other books.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
It's best to listen to God instead of men. (1Peter 4:11)

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I hope we do not get to far from the OP.
I only got involved on this thread after it had been going for a long time, so I never read the OP, so now I will reply to the OP:

In (John 19:30) Jesus said "it is finished".

Some claim this means man need not do anything to be saved, but then they go on to say you must believe.

Why do I need to believe if Jesus done it all on the cross?

(Jn.19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.​

I believe that when Jesus said "it is finished" He was referring to His work in this world, NOT to what we have to do. I believe that the work of Jesus was finished when He died on the cross and that is why Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


But after Jesus' work was finished our work was just beginning. Our work was to follow what Jesus taught.

Being saved (which really means gaining eternal life) requires that we not only believe in what Jesus did for us, but we must also follow His teachings. For example, Jesus said:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
There has been so much written about the soul and the afterlife in the Writings of the Baha'i Faith that it is hard to know where to start, so I will just answer what you just asked and I can explain more later. (I have on my list to answer your post from yesterday where you asked about the dead being raised again, but I have several posts to answer and I try to answer them in the order that they were received.)

I believe that all souls go the afterlife, what I refer to as the spiritual world, but first you need to understand what I believe about the soul.

The soul works through the body while we are alive in a body, but it is the soul that directs human faculties. As outer circumstances are communicated to the soul by the eyes, ears, and brain, the soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself and leads to experiences and distractions and feelings and all kinds of things.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world. Nobody can understand what that will be like before they die because the only reference point we have is the physical world and the physical body.

According to Baha’i beliefs 1 Corinthians 15:12-22 is all about spiritual death, not physical death. Bodies once dead do not rise from graves. Souls leave the body and rise to heaven and take on a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements in that spiritual realm. They then continue to exist for eternity. The souls who are spiritually alive have eternal life so they go to heaven the souls who are spiritually dead go to what is termed hell.

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife).

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”


The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225


Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243


As a Baha'i, I believe in Christ, and that is an absolute requirement for all Baha'is:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 109


But since I am a follower of Baha'u'llah I call myself a Baha'i. Some of my beliefs match what Christians believe and some don't. That is a BIG subject, and I do not want to overwhelm you any more than I probably have already. ;)

Oh I almost forgot to answer your question about whether the dead can hear us. I believe that those souls who are in the spiritual world (thus physically dead) can hear us, because there is no real separation between this world and the spiritual world.

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

I believe that some people in this world can communicate with spirits in the spiritual world. That is not a Baha'i belief, just a belief I picked up from reading other books.
It will take me some time to go over this and I am sure there will be things I have trouble seeing. But I appreciate all your efforts. I hope we can continue honest discussions.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
It's best to listen to God instead of men. (1Peter 4:11)

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
All religion is based on man's interpretation of scripture. You interpret "the dead know not anything" to mean that some people in hades know joy and happiness and some know torment and pain depending on what part of hades they are in. I interpret it to mean they know NOTHING. Who decides which is right? Mine makes far more sense to me. And I am sure your's makes more sense to you. Maybe you consider mine to be "private interpretation" and yours is something else. I am just saying that to me "nothing" means "nothing" Maybe it means something else to you. It all comes back to interpretation which you warn against .
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I hope we do not get to far from the OP.
The OP. Jesus said "it is finished". Jesus physical body was dying on the cross. His physical life was finished. But after three days in the tomb He was re-born, born again, the FIRSTborn from the dead. Jesus was setting an example. Humans also will die and spend time in their graves. But they too will be born again to a new spirit life. But while we are dead we will be really dead. Not enjoying a pleasant time on one side of hades while others suffer pain and torment on the other side. All will be dead until they follow Jesus and are born from the dead. That is what is means to be boen again. Like Jesus told Nicodemus, those who are born again will be invisible spirit beings.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
All religion is based on man's interpretation of scripture. You interpret "the dead know not anything" to mean that some people in hades know joy and happiness and some know torment and pain depending on what part of hades they are in. I interpret it to mean they know NOTHING. Who decides which is right? Mine makes far more sense to me. And I am sure your's makes more sense to you. Maybe you consider mine to be "private interpretation" and yours is something else. I am just saying that to me "nothing" means "nothing" Maybe it means something else to you. It all comes back to interpretation which you warn against .
I did not say the following, I read it in Gods word.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
The OP. Jesus said "it is finished". Jesus physical body was dying on the cross. His physical life was finished. But after three days in the tomb He was re-born, born again, the FIRSTborn from the dead. Jesus was setting an example. Humans also will die and spend time in their graves. But they too will be born again to a new spirit life. But while we are dead we will be really dead. Not enjoying a pleasant time on one side of hades while others suffer pain and torment on the other side. All will be dead until they follow Jesus and are born from the dead. That is what is means to be boen again. Like Jesus told Nicodemus, those who are born again will be invisible spirit beings.

You are not interpreting, you are CHANGING Gods word in (Luke 16:19-31).

De 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2) (1Cor.4:6)
 

Nova2216

Active Member
All religion is based on man's interpretation of scripture. You interpret "the dead know not anything" to mean that some people in hades know joy and happiness and some know torment and pain depending on what part of hades they are in. I interpret it to mean they know NOTHING. Who decides which is right? Mine makes far more sense to me. And I am sure your's makes more sense to you. Maybe you consider mine to be "private interpretation" and yours is something else. I am just saying that to me "nothing" means "nothing" Maybe it means something else to you. It all comes back to interpretation which you warn against .

The dead UNDER THE SUN know nothing.

UNDER THE SUN gives us the CONTEXT.

In other words ON EARTH.


Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Thank you for the commercial for the Church of Christ. I am sure they are a wonderful organization but I have no reason to think they are any better or worse than the thousands of other religious groups in the world. Different people look at the same scriptures and interpret them in different ways.
I gave you bible answers and you call it a commercial.

It seems you may be looking for support of your position rather than truth.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The dead UNDER THE SUN know nothing.

UNDER THE SUN gives us the CONTEXT.

In other words ON EARTH.


Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Would you be kind enough to quote the verse that says under the sun means on earth. Sunlight falls on the moon and other planets so they are all under the sun.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I gave you bible answers and you call it a commercial.

It seems you may be looking for support of your position rather than truth.
I am absolutely NOT looking for support. I am looking for someone to prove me wrong. So far no one has.For example in Ec 9:5 the dead know nothing. Your belief is that some of the dead are in Abraham's bosom and know happiness while others are in another place and know sorrow. This means they know SOMETHING. And SOMETHING is not the same as NOTHING. It does not say they are on earth or under the sun or in heaven or anywhere else . It says they are DEAD and they know NOTHING. Until someone can prove that NOTHING means enjoying bliss or feeling remorse, I will believe my interpretation is right.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Would you be kind enough to quote the verse that says under the sun means on earth. Sunlight falls on the moon and other planets so they are all under the sun.
Eccl. speaks of "UNDER THE SUN". (top sde)

(Eccl.9:10) speaks of "THE GRAVE". (bottom sde)

God does not leave any room for error. (this physical world)
 

Nova2216

Active Member
I am absolutely NOT looking for support. I am looking for someone to prove me wrong. So far no one has.For example in Ec 9:5 the dead know nothing. Your belief is that some of the dead are in Abraham's bosom and know happiness while others are in another place and know sorrow. This means they know SOMETHING. And SOMETHING is not the same as NOTHING. It does not say they are on earth or under the sun or in heaven or anywhere else . It says they are DEAD and they know NOTHING. Until someone can prove that NOTHING means enjoying bliss or feeling remorse, I will believe my interpretation is right.

(Eccl.9:5) and (Luke 16:19-31) harmonizes.

It is your understanding of those scriptures which does not harmonize.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Would you be kind enough to quote the verse that says under the sun means on earth. Sunlight falls on the moon and other planets so they are all under the sun.

Do men live on the moon?

Are there graves on the moon?

You are reaching way out there trying to find support for your doctrine.

Why not just look into the bible?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
(Eccl.9:5) and (Luke 16:19-31) harmonizes.

It is your understanding of those scriptures which does not harmonize.
If you want to talk about harmonizing, we can go there.When scriptures harmonize, they agree and support each other. In Luke, the dead beggar can see and communicate with others. His mind is active and aware. Ecclesiastes says that the dead know nothing. This is what does not harmonize. Knowing nothing and knowing something are exact opposites. If you prefer Luke over Ecclesiastes, that is your choice. I prefer Ecclesiastes. But it is not my understanding that does not harmonize, it is these two scriptures which are complete opposites that do not harmonize. I am still waiting for an explanation of how nothing is the same as something.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I am looking for someone to prove me wrong. So far no one has.
Did you read the long post I posted to you yesterday? #981 Trailblazer
I am not trying to prove you wrong, I was just sharing what I believe about the afterlife.
I believe that the dead will know everything they knew before they died, but not through the brain and body, through the soul.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Did you read the long post I posted to you yesterday? #981 Trailblazer
I am not trying to prove you wrong, I was just sharing what I believe about the afterlife.
I believe that the dead will know everything they knew before they died, but not through the brain and body, through the soul.
Thank you. I have been busy and did not read it all yet. I have no problem if you can prove me wrong. But I must say that my source of belief is strictly the Bible. If you show me verses that show I am wrong, then I have no problem. Thanks.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
If you want to talk about harmonizing, we can go there.When scriptures harmonize, they agree and support each other. In Luke, the dead beggar can see and communicate with others. His mind is active and aware. Ecclesiastes says that the dead know nothing. This is what does not harmonize. Knowing nothing and knowing something are exact opposites. If you prefer Luke over Ecclesiastes, that is your choice. I prefer Ecclesiastes. But it is not my understanding that does not harmonize, it is these two scriptures which are complete opposites that do not harmonize. I am still waiting for an explanation of how nothing is the same as something.

Oh, I see, it is God who is confused according to you.

Eccl is speaking of the physical body. (under the sun / in the grave)

Luke 16 is speaking of the disembodied spirits of men who have been separated from their physical body.

This explanation allows these two passages to harmonize.
 
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