Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[Trailblazer]

Thank you. I have been busy and did not read it all yet. I have no problem if you can prove me wrong. But I must say that my source of belief is strictly the Bible. If you show me verses that show I am wrong, then I have no problem. Thanks.

I can show you verses in the Bible and my interpretation of them and then you can decide for yourself if you think you are wrong or not. I would have to know specifically what you concerned you might be wrong about.

 

[Muffled]

May I ask what you believe must be done to be saved? Nova2216 says a person must believe and be baptized. Do you believe a person must be part of a certain religion?

I believe a person must be without sin to enter into The Kingdom of God and have eternal life. For that one must accept the sacrifice for sin that Jesus made on the cross and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior to keep from committing more sins.

 

[Muffled]

The Kingdom was established in the first century. (Col. 1:13)

You can only place people into something which exist.

The Spiritual Kingdom came with the presence of Jesus but the physical Kingdom comes when He returns. As we are taught to pray "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

 

[Muffled]

Thank you for your reply. I find it interesting that you list your religion as Christiam and say you believe in reincarnation. I was not aware of Christian religions that teach reincarnation. I thought it was only religions like Hindu or Bhuddism. I also find it hard to see how people in India or China have all heard the gospel. Perhaps you would be kind enogh to add more to this.

I believe there are statements of Jesus that indicate reincarnation and The Holy Spirit has guided me on matters that are not in the Bible. Christians avoid reincarnation because of the fact that it is a belief of other religions as though other religions got everything wrong. The fact is that the views of other religions about reincarnation are often wrong.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Oh, I see, it is God who is confused according to you.

Eccl is speaking of the physical body. (under the sun / in the grave)

Luke 16 is speaking of the disembodied spirits of men who have been separated from their physical body.

This explanation allows these two passages to harmonize.

Maybe it would have been easier if you had explained this earlier. Everyone does not understand things as well as you do.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Spiritual Kingdom came with the presence of Jesus but the physical Kingdom comes when He returns. As we are taught to pray "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

Thsnk you. This makes a lot of sense. Please continue to comment on this thread.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I believe there are statements of Jesus that indicate reincarnation and The Holy Spirit has guided me on matters that are not in the Bible. Christians avoid reincarnation because of the fact that it is a belief of other religions as though other religions got everything wrong. The fact is that the views of other religions about reincarnation are often wrong.

Thank you again. This is a very refreshing way to look at things. I hope to hear more.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I believe a person must be without sin to enter into The Kingdom of God and have eternal life. For that one must accept the sacrifice for sin that Jesus made on the cross and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior to keep from committing more sins.

Is baptism something to consider?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I can show you verses in the Bible and my interpretation of them and then you can decide for yourself if you think you are wrong or not. I would have to know specifically what you concerned you might be wrong about.

Let me start with what has been discussed recently on this thread. Jesus said that a person must be born again. And He said that those who are born again will be like the wind. You cannot see the wind, only feel its passing. I say that Jesus set an example to show this. He was born as a baby and then was called the firstborm from the dead. When Jesus rose from the dead, that was his second birth. People also are born and die. The hope for them is that Jesus is coming back to earth to raise them from the dead. That is when they will be born the second time, or born again. They will not be physical bodies but will be invisible spirits. Our first life is physical. We are born and die. Our second life is spiritual. Some of those spiritual lives will last forever and some will not. But that is another subject for another time. Thank you for your comments.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I think maybe I have failed to properly explain some of the reasons for my beliefs so I will try one more time. Most Christians say that the Old Testament no longer applies to them. After all, the OT says we should obey the 10 commandments, avoid eating pork and circumcise our male children. What Christian does all of that? So there is a story in Ecclesiastes in the OT that tells about two men who die and can communicate with others from beyond death. Is it a factual story, or a fable, or a parable, or is that the way people believed in OT times? I do not think anyone can say for sure. There is another story in the OT about a flood and an ark. I believe that story because nothing else in the Bible contradicts it. Also a story about Moses parting the Red Sea so the Isrealites could walk across. I believe that story because nothing else contradicts it. But the story of Lazarus and the begger has contradictory things in the Bible. In the same book of Ecclesiastes, in chapter 3, verse 19 it says that animals and people die in the same way. They breathe out their breath and return to the dust. Nothing about human souls separating from the physical body. Nothing about Abraham's bosom. Death is death for animals and humans. Then in the New Testament Jesus own words say that "the dead know not anything". Again, nothing about souls or Abraham's bosom. The dead are dead and their thoughts and feeling end. So I accept OT stories when they are not contradicted by other scripture. But I have a problem believing a story that is contradicted in the same book as well as by actual words from Jesus. So I believe that the dead wait silently in their graves until Jesus returns and raises them to new life. I do not base my beliefs on a story that may be a parable and is contradicted elsewhere in the Bible. I hope this clears up the reason behind my beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

So I believe that the dead wait silently in their graves until Jesus returns and raises them to new life.

The problem with that belief is that Jesus never said that He would return and Jesus never said he would raise people from their graves; this is not in the New Testament at all. I hope to readdress this when I answer your other posts, but meanwhile:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Finished means finished and it means that the mission of Jesus on earth was finished, so there is no reason for Jesus to ever return to earth. That is why Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Saying that we will see the Son of man in the clouds is not Jesus referring to Himself and it is not about the physical clouds in the sky. Note that Jesus never said "you will see ME coming in the clouds."

Then I ask you, do you want to hold a belief that is false? Do you want to wait for Jesus to return and raise you from your grave, if that is never going to happen, or do you want to know the truth about what is going to happen to you when you die?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The problem with that belief is that Jesus never said that He would return and Jesus never said he would raise people from their graves; this is not in the New Testament at all. I hope to readdress this when I answer your other posts, but meanwhile:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Finished means finished and it means that the mission of Jesus on earth was finished, so there is no reason for Jesus to ever return to earth. That is why Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Saying that we will see the Son of man in the clouds is not Jesus referring to Himself and it is not about the physical clouds in the sky. Note that Jesus never said "you will see ME coming in the clouds."

Then I ask you, do you want to hold a belief that is false? Do you want to wait for Jesus to return and raise you from your grave, if that is never going to happen, or do you want to know the truth about what is going to happen to you when you die?

Mathew 24:27-31 says that the son of man will come with the sound of trumpets and he will send his angels. This must be Jesus at his second coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

Mathew 24:27-31 says that the son of man will come with the sound of trumpets and he will send his angels. This must be Jesus at his second coming.

Son of man is a title that applied to Jesus and it represents the perfect humanity Jesus represented, but there is no reason to believe that it applies exclusively to Jesus. Why didn't Jesus say "you will see me?" Jesus never said that. He said you will see the Son of man in the clouds.

The belief that Jesus will return to earth conflicts with:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Son of man is a title that applied to Jesus and it represents the perfect humanity Jesus represented, but there is no reason to believe that it applies exclusively to Jesus. Why didn't Jesus say "you will see me?" Jesus never said that. He said you will see the Son of man in the clouds.

The belief that Jesus will return to earth conflicts with:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So who do you believe that this "son of man" who will come with angels in the clouds MIGHT be? I personally can't think of anyone who might come with angels in the clouds. If not Jesus, who MIGHT it be? Or do you think the whole verse is a lie and NO ONE is going to come with angels?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Acts 1:9-11 says that the apostles were told, even as they watched Jesus taken up into the clouds, that he was coming back in the same way. I guess the book of Acts is a lie.It says he is coming back just like he was taken up in the clouds. So there must be some mistake and we can't believe the Bible or we just pick out the parts we want to believe. Jesus is coming back with the sound of trumpets and thousands of angels in the clouds. That is what the Bible says. You do not have to believe it but I do.

 

[Trailblazer]

So who do you believe that this "son of man" who will come with angels in the clouds MIGHT be? I personally can't think of anyone who might come with angels in the clouds. If not Jesus, who MIGHT it be? Or do you think the whole verse is a lie and NO ONE is going to come with angels?

Mathew 24:27-31 says that the son of man will come with the sound of trumpets and he will send his angels. This must be Jesus at his second coming.

First of all, I do not interpret that verse literally so I do not believe there will be actual trumpets and actual angels, but rather the verse has a symbolic meaning. I do not have time to address that right now.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

I believe that Baha’u’llah was one like the Son of man who came in the clouds of heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Much of this is explained in Thief in the Night by William Sears, who researched the Bible prophecies for seven years and explained exactly how they were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Thus when Jesus said “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” we believe that means that His Return, the next Manifestation of God, would reside in the loftiness and exaltation of the divine presence (heaven), and would come down to earth by the will of God in the clouds (veiled from the sight of most people), like a thief in the night.

The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven, but I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Now it gets interesting. You said before that Jesus never said he was coming back to earth. Now you say it must be him coming in clouds at his second coming. You also do not take this verse literally. Do you take the story of Lazarus and the begger literally? Are we at liberty to decide what verses we want to believe and what ones we do not want to believe?

 

[Trailblazer]

New Acts 1:9-11 says that the apostles were told, even as they watched Jesus taken up into the clouds, that he was coming back in the same way. I guess the book of Acts is a lie.It says he is coming back just like he was taken up in the clouds. So there must be some mistake and we can't believe the Bible or we just pick out the parts we want to believe.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

As I said before, Bible verses can have more than one interpretation. I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.

I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

Jesus is coming back with the sound of trumpets and thousands of angels in the clouds. That is what the Bible says. You do not have to believe it but I do.

No, the Bible does not say the JESUS is coming back at all. Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever promise to return. Rather, Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you say it must be him coming in clouds at his second coming.

No, I did not say it was the same man Jesus we would see coming in clouds at his second coming. I said it would be the return of the Christ Spirit in the person of Baha'u'llah.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

No, I did not say it was the same man Jesus we would see coming in clouds at his second coming. I said it would be the return of the Christ Spirit in the person of Baha'u'llah.

Oh, you did not say it was the same man Jesus. But if you believe Acts 1:11 it says " this SAME man Jesus will so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". Nothing about his spirit in another person. So you may say it is not the same Jesus but the Bible says it is.