Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[lostwanderingsoul]

Bible interpretation is all about context.

Context is of course important but I still believe words have meaning and we should not try to show that they mean something different from their standard meaning. If one person says their dog is dead another person should not try to prove that it is not really dead because death has some other meaning. That is not interpretation. It is changing the meaning of words to match what you want them to mean. The person with the dead dog surely does not want the dog to be dead but interpreting the word in a different way does not change the fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Context is of course important but I still believe words have meaning and we should not try to show that they mean something different from their standard meaning. If one person says their dog is dead another person should not try to prove that it is not really dead because death has some other meaning. That is not interpretation. It is changing the meaning of words to match what you want them to mean. The person with the dead dog surely does not want the dog to be dead but interpreting the word in a different way does not change the fact.

But it is not the same with animals being dead. A human can be either spiritually dead or physically dead, or both.
Thus 'dead in their graves' does not necessarily mean physically dead; it can also mean spiritually dead, depending upon the context.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

But it is not the same with animals being dead. A human can be either spiritually dead or physically dead, or both.
Thus 'dead in their graves' does not necessarily mean physically dead; it can also mean spiritually dead, depending upon the context.

I would really appreciate if you can quote the verse that says a human can be physically or spiritually dead or both. I certainly hope dead in their graves DOES mean physically dead. I hate to think of burying people who are not physically dead. You see how foolish it is to try to change the meaning of words. Someone can be dead in their grave but not physically dead? Really? Is that what you are saying or did I interpret something wrong?

 

[Nova2216]

Post 1005 was a joke. The is NOTHING in any of these verses that mentions physical bodies or disembodied spirits. The is nothing that says death means the spirit separates from the body. There is nothing that says some people go to Abraham's bosom except the fable in Luke. The Bible says that death is the same for people and animals and the dead know nothing. That is the big difference. I believe nothing means nothing. You believe nothing means something. Give me the Bible verse that says death means our spirit separates from our physical body.

You claim 1005 is a joke yet your response to 1005 is below.


Maybe it would have been easier if you had explained this earlier. Everyone does not understand things as well as you do.

#1005lostwanderingsoul, Monday at 10:35 AM

 

[Nova2216]

Thank you. Those are wise words. But I believe we should trust the words in the Bible to mean what they say instead of trying to explain why they mean something different. Sure, I might have some interpretation wrong but I believe dead means dead and nothing means nothing. Other people try to prove that dead means something else and nothing means something.

Do you TRUST (Luke 16:19-31)?

 

[Trailblazer]

I would really appreciate if you can quote the verse that says a human can be physically or spiritually dead or both. I certainly hope dead in their graves DOES mean physically dead. I hate to think of burying people who are not physically dead. You see how foolish it is to try to change the meaning of words. Someone can be dead in their grave but not physically dead? Really? Is that what you are saying or did I interpret something wrong?

Yes, someone can be dead in their grave of spiritual ignorance and not be physically dead.

I do not know all the verses in the Bible that refer to being dead, but from what I do know most of those verses refer to being spiritually dead, not physically dead. For example on the following verse Jesus was referring to the spiritually dead burying a body that was physically dead.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the [spiritually] dead bury their dead [physical bodies]: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s Cause was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies.

16 For if the dead rise not and 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead refers to Christ’s spiritual resurrection, not to anyone rising from graves.

Below is my complete interpretation.

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death, not physical death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus will have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but they will not have eternal life because in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You claim 1005 is a joke yet your response to 1005 is below.


Maybe it would have been easier if you had explained this earlier. Everyone does not understand things as well as you do.

#1005lostwanderingsoul, Monday at 10:35 AM

It was a joke because you did not really explain anything. Or maybe I should just say that when I say it is a joke that means it is not a joke because the word joke really means that something is true. Just like saying the dead know nothing really means the dead are able to know things. It's all about interpretation so you can interpret joke to mean whatever you want it to mean just like you interpret dead to mean whatever you want it to mean.

 

[Nova2216]

It was a joke because you did not really explain anything. Or maybe I should just say that when I say it is a joke that means it is not a joke because the word joke really means that something is true. Just like saying the dead know nothing really means the dead are able to know things. It's all about interpretation so you can interpret joke to mean whatever you want it to mean just like you interpret dead to mean whatever you want it to mean.

Is Luke 16 the word of God?

What does it say?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Do you TRUST (Luke 16:19-31)?

Depends on how you define "trust". Apparently it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Jesus often spoke in parables. These are stories that teach a lesson but are not literally true. I trust that Luke 16 has something to learn about but I do not believe dead people can see and feel and commu nicate. Do you trust Ecclesiastes? The dead know nothing. Or does that really mean the dead know something. And I am waiting for the verse that says death means the separation of body and soul.

 

[Nova2216]

Does Death Imply Annihilation?
by Kyle Butt, M.Div.

(excerpt)

The Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon gives the following primary definition of the Greek word that is translated “death” (thanatos): “(1) the death of the body (1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which life on earth is ended” (“Thanatos:2505,” 1999). That physical death is viewed in the Bible as separation is evident from several scriptures. The inspired writer James offered the clearest picture of this idea of death when he wrote: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). According to James, faith that is separated from works is a dead faith in the same way that a body which is separated from the soul is a dead body. Notice that a body separated from a soul is not a nonexistent body. On the contrary, the body still exists and lies lifeless, but is separated from the soul and thus presumed dead.

Read more here.
Does Death Imply Annihilation?

 

[Trailblazer]

Does Death Imply Annihilation?
by Kyle Butt, M.Div.

(excerpt)

The Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon gives the following primary definition of the Greek word that is translated “death” (thanatos): “(1) the death of the body (1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which life on earth is ended” (“Thanatos:2505,” 1999). That physical death is viewed in the Bible as separation is evident from several scriptures. The inspired writer James offered the clearest picture of this idea of death when he wrote: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). According to James, faith that is separated from works is a dead faith in the same way that a body which is separated from the soul is a dead body. Notice that a body separated from a soul is not a nonexistent body. On the contrary, the body still exists and lies lifeless, but is separated from the soul and thus presumed dead.

Read more here.
Does Death Imply Annihilation?

Great article, I tend to peruse it further when I have time, but these sentences jumped out and bit me in the nose:

"While the idea that physical death is defined by separation and not nonexistence is clear from the Bible, the idea that spiritual death is defined by a soul’s separation from God and not by a soul’s nonexistence is even more clearly set forth in Scripture."

"In truth, however, the concept of death as used in the Bible does not mean nonexistence; rather, it means “separation.” In regard to physical death, it refers to the separation of the soul from the physical body. In regard to spiritual death, in connotes separation of the soul from God."

"The antithesis of death is “life” (zoe). As we have seen from numerous passages, one way that the word “life” is used in the Bible is to describe the state in which the physical body is joined or connected to the soul of a person. Furthermore, spiritual life, the opposite of spiritual death, is used in the New Testament to describe the condition in which a separated soul is brought back to, and joined with, its Creator."

This is totally congruent with what I believe.

All souls continue to exist after their separation from the body, but only those souls who are close to God will have eternal life. The other souls that become a victim to self and passion will continue to exist but they will be "as dead" souls.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife).

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Great article, I tend to peruse it further when I have time, but these sentences jumped out and bit me in the nose:

"While the idea that physical death is defined by separation and not nonexistence is clear from the Bible, the idea that spiritual death is defined by a soul’s separation from God and not by a soul’s nonexistence is even more clearly set forth in Scripture."

"In truth, however, the concept of death as used in the Bible does not mean nonexistence; rather, it means “separation.” In regard to physical death, it refers to the separation of the soul from the physical body. In regard to spiritual death, in connotes separation of the soul from God."

Please list the scriptures. I would rather read them myself instead of someone's interpretation of them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please list the scriptures. I would rather read them myself instead of someone's interpretation of them.

The scriptures are all cited in the article that Nova posted.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The scriptures are all cited in the article that Nova posted.

I looked at the article briefly and will look at it again later. Let me see if I got it right. Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body and spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. Right? So spirits never cease to exist. They are either with God or away from God. That actually seems to make sense in a way. But what if I have a piece of paper. I can hold it in my hand and look at it. Then I set it on fire and it burns to ashes and the ashes blow away on the wind. Would It be correct to say that BOTH statements are true? 1. The paper no longer exits. 2. The paper has been separated from me. Why can't the same be true for spirits? The reason they are separated from God is that they no longer exist. God says the wicked will be burned up like garbage. You do not throw garbage in the fire to punish it, you put it in the fire to destroy it. Yes of course the wicked will definately be separated from God. But they will be separated because they will be destroyed and no longer exist. Is there any scripture that says spirits can never be destroyed?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Malachi 4:1 The day is coming that will burn like an oven and the wicked will be like stubble and that day shall BURN THEN UP. When you burn something up it no longer exists. If the wicked are burned up and no longer exist then it is obvious that they will be separated from God. They will be separated from everything. Not lying in agony over hot coals while little demons poke them with pitchforks. Not begging for a drop of water to cool their parched tongues. This cannot be about physical bodies because even the physical bodies of Christians return to the dust. This is the complete destruction of everything that makes up the wicked person. Body, soul, spirit, mind - the entire person will no longer exist. Can you find a verse that says "oh, by the way, this is only the physical body"? I don't think so. All you can say is, death does not mean death, or burn up does not mean burn up, or you have to think about the Greek words.

 

[Trailblazer]

I looked at the article briefly and will look at it again later. Let me see if I got it right. Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body and spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. Right? So spirits never cease to exist. They are either with God or away from God.

I looked at the article briefly and will look at it again later. Let me see if I got it right.

In the context of the afterlife, the soul and the spirit are the same entity; so the words soul and spirit have the same meaning.

Physical death is separation of the soul from the body and spiritual death is the soul’s separation from God. Souls never cease to exist; they just are near or far from God. Heaven is a state of the soul that is near to God, hell is a state of the soul that is far from God.

Those souls who are near to God attain eternal life; those souls who are far from God are as dead souls. Although they continue to exist I the spiritual world, they are as nonexistent compared to the holy souls who are near to God.

That actually seems to make sense in a way. But what if I have a piece of paper. I can hold it in my hand and look at it. Then I set it on fire and it burns to ashes and the ashes blow away on the wind. Would It be correct to say that BOTH statements are true? 1. The paper no longer exits. 2. The paper has been separated from me. Why can't the same be true for spirits?

The reason the same thing cannot happen to spirits (souls) as happens to the paper that burns to ashes is because the soul is immortal, so it cannot ever die or be destroyed. Whenever Jesus referred to the soul being destroyed He meant that it was far from God because it was attached to self and the world. Take for example these verses:

Matthew 16:24-26 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

The reason they are separated from God is that they no longer exist. God says the wicked will be burned up like garbage. You do not throw garbage in the fire to punish it, you put it in the fire to destroy it. Yes of course the wicked will definitely be separated from God. But they will be separated because they will be destroyed and no longer exist. Is there any scripture that says spirits can never be destroyed?

I do not know if there is any Bible scripture that says spirits (souls) can never be destroyed.

I believe that evil souls will be separated from God but they will continue to exist in a state that can be likened to hell, unless God has mercy on their souls. If you want a graphic description of what hell might be like, I can post it to you but I warn you that it ain’t pretty. It is not from Baha’i scriptures, it is from a medium who communicated with spirits in the spiritual world. It is not that different from some biblical depictions of hell.

 

[Nova2216]

Anytime a person thinks scriptures contradict the problem is with his understanding of the scriptures and not the scriptures. (a true sign of error)

All the scriptures harmonize beautifully (Ps. 119:160) (Jn 17:17).

Truth will always harmonize.

Harmony is the friend of TRUTH.

If I have come to the conclusion a scripture is wrong, I have drawn a wrong conclusion.


The above information is why creed books are wrong and sinful. (1Jn 3:4) (1Cor.4:6) (Deut.4:2)

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Cor.4:6 that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,...

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

In the context of the afterlife, the soul and the spirit are the same entity; so the words soul and spirit have the same meaning.

Physical death is separation of the soul from the body and spiritual death is the soul’s separation from God. Souls never cease to exist; they just are near or far from God. Heaven is a state of the soul that is near to God, hell is a state of the soul that is far from God.

Those souls who are near to God attain eternal life; those souls who are far from God are as dead souls. Although they continue to exist I the spiritual world, they are as nonexistent compared to the holy souls who are near to God.

The reason the same thing cannot happen to spirits (souls) as happens to the paper that burns to ashes is because the soul is immortal, so it cannot ever die or be destroyed. Whenever Jesus referred to the soul being destroyed He meant that it was far from God because it was attached to self and the world. Take for example these verses:

Matthew 16:24-26 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

I do not know if there is any Bible scripture that says spirits (souls) can never be destroyed.

I believe that evil souls will be separated from God but they will continue to exist in a state that can be likened to hell, unless God has mercy on their souls. If you want a graphic description of what hell might be like, I can post it to you but I warn you that it ain’t pretty. It is not from Baha’i scriptures, it is from a medium who communicated with spirits in the spiritual world. It is not that different from some biblical depictions of hell.

It appears that you are so interested in trying to prove what you want to believe that you are willing to contradict even yourself. You said souls or spirits are immortal and can never die or be destroyed and then just a few lines later you admit that there is no scripture that says souls or spirits cannot be destroyed. You want to believe that souls are immortal so you believe it even though there is nothing in the Bible says says that. Malachi says that SOMETHING will be BURNED UP. It cannot mean the physical body because that is already destroyed in the grave. So it must be the soul or spirit that is BURNED UP and destroyed. I do not need a description of hell. The hell I know about is much worse than anything you can even imagine. You hell is about hot enough to cook a hot dog. My hell is hot enough to BURN THINGS UP. Is Malachi wrong?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Anytime a person thinks scriptures contradict the problem is with his understanding of the scriptures and not the scriptures. (a true sign of error)

All the scriptures harmonize beautifully (Ps. 119:160) (Jn 17:17).

Truth will always harmonize.

Harmony is the friend of TRUTH.

If I have come to the conclusion a scripture is wrong, I have drawn a wrong conclusion.


The above information is why creed books are wrong and sinful. (1Jn 3:4) (1Cor.4:6) (Deut.4:2)

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Cor.4:6 that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,...

I absolutely believe scripture is correct and means what it says. I do not believe it means something different from what it says. Dead means dead. Nothing means nothing. Burned up means burned up. Some people want to believe that dead means alive in a different place, and nothing means something, and burned up just means separated from God. I call that stretching the words to match what you want to believe. I still have not seen a single scripture that says dead means not dead or knowing nothing means knowing something or being burned up means being away from God. When I see those scriptures I will decide if I should change my beliefs. Until then I think my beliefs are closer to the Bible than the beliefs of someone who has to make up excuses why the words do not mean what they say.

 

[Nova2216]

I absolutely believe scripture is correct and means what it says. I do not believe it means something different from what it says. Dead means dead. Nothing means nothing. Burned up means burned up. Some people want to believe that dead means alive in a different place, and nothing means something, and burned up just means separated from God. I call that stretching the words to match what you want to believe. I still have not seen a single scripture that says dead means not dead or knowing nothing means knowing something or being burned up means being away from God. When I see those scriptures I will decide if I should change my beliefs. Until then I think my beliefs are closer to the Bible than the beliefs of someone who has to make up excuses why the words do not mean what they say.

You claim to use the bible alone for your guide,but reject (Luke 16).

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



Lu 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.