Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[lostwanderingsoul]

You claim to use the bible alone for your guide,but reject (Luke 16).

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



Lu 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is a wonderful story and I believe it teaches that some people will recieve their reward for following Jesus and others will be punished for rejecting Jesus. I do not believe that dead people in their graves can hear each other and feel pain or happiness. I see you have not quoted scriptures that say dead is not dead and knowing nothing means knowing something and being burned up does not mean being burned but just separated from God. You pick verses that you like and avoid verses you cannot explain. I believe ALL the Bible. The dead know nothing. The wicked will be burned up.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

There seems to be a lot of concern about the story in Luke 16. Two dead men are able to communicate from the grave. So how about the story in Luke 10 about a Samaritan who helped someone while traveling down a road. Is that completely factual about a real Samaritan? And a story in Luke 13 about a fig tree. Was there really a fig tree that was about to be cut down? And even Luke 15. Is this about a real life son who left home and was later welcomed back? Luke 16 teaches a lesson but it is not about real people and events. It would be wonderful if someone could come back from the dead to warn us about the coming judgement. And the story is warning us about that future time when some will gain eternal life and others will be punished. It does not mean we must believe in events that other parts of the Bible say are not possible.

 

[Nova2216]

This is a wonderful story and I believe it teaches that some people will recieve their reward for following Jesus and others will be punished for rejecting Jesus. I do not believe that dead people in their graves can hear each other and feel pain or happiness. I see you have not quoted scriptures that say dead is not dead and knowing nothing means knowing something and being burned up does not mean being burned but just separated from God. You pick verses that you like and avoid verses you cannot explain. I believe ALL the Bible. The dead know nothing. The wicked will be burned up.

The word is eisegesis.

I do not remember the word "GRAVE" in (Luke 16).


That which is dead is the physical body. (in the grave / under the sun)

That which is made in the image of God lives on forever. That is what (Luke 16) is describing.


If you do not believe (Luke 16) you do NOT believe ALL THE BIBLE.

 

[Nova2216]

There seems to be a lot of concern about the story in Luke 16. Two dead men are able to communicate from the grave. So how about the story in Luke 10 about a Samaritan who helped someone while traveling down a road. Is that completely factual about a real Samaritan? And a story in Luke 13 about a fig tree. Was there really a fig tree that was about to be cut down? And even Luke 15. Is this about a real life son who left home and was later welcomed back? Luke 16 teaches a lesson but it is not about real people and events. It would be wonderful if someone could come back from the dead to warn us about the coming judgement. And the story is warning us about that future time when some will gain eternal life and others will be punished. It does not mean we must believe in events that other parts of the Bible say are not possible.

You misunderstand (Luke 16). It is not an account of two people in the grave communicating with one another. Abraham had been dead for a long time and yet he was communicating with the rich man.

In (Mark 5) spirits left the body of a man named Legion and entered swine.

Did they cease to be spirits just because they were between two physical bodies? - NO

You do not accept the truth in (Luke 16) b/c you have been taught something which opposes the word of God.(Jn 12:48)(Deut.4:2)(1Cor.4:6).

 

[Watchmen]

Too bad Jesus, God incarnate, didn’t think to be a little more specific about what “it” was when he said, “It is finished.”

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The word is eisegesis.

I do not remember the word "GRAVE" in (Luke 16).


That which is dead is the physical body. (in the grave / under the sun)

That which is made in the image of God lives on forever. That is what (Luke 16) is describing.


If you do not believe (Luke 16) you do NOT believe ALL THE BIBLE.

Ezekiel 18:4 the soul that sins shall die. So the soul which is in the image of God does NOT live forever. It CAN die. So it appears there are parts of the Bible that you do not believe. Oh that's right death does not mean death and burned up does not mean burned up. We can just interpret these words to match our beliefs. I am still waiting for any verse that says dead is not dead or burned up is not burned up. Do you have any?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You misunderstand (Luke 16). It is not an account of two people in the grave communicating with one another. Abraham had been dead for a long time and yet he was communicating with the rich man.

In (Mark 5) spirits left the body of a man named Legion and entered swine.

Did they cease to be spirits just because they were between two physical bodies? - NO

You do not accept the truth in (Luke 16) b/c you have been taught something which opposes the word of God.(Jn 12:48)(Deut.4:2)(1Cor.4:6).

I thought death was the separation of the spirit and the body. So if the spirit of man in Mark 5 left his body he would be dead. This was an example of possesion by a demon spirit. Jesus cast out the demon and the man was healed. Jesus cast out demons many times in the Bible. And Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, not an accurate account of something that really happened.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Too bad Jesus, God incarnate, didn’t think to be a little more specific about what “it” was when he said, “It is finished.”

We would surely welcome some new comments if you care to share.

 

[Nova2216]

I thought death was the separation of the spirit and the body. So if the spirit of man in Mark 5 left his body he would be dead. This was an example of possesion by a demon spirit. Jesus cast out the demon and the man was healed. Jesus cast out demons many times in the Bible. And Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, not an accurate account of something that really happened.

Were they spirits?

Did spirits leave the body?

Did they exist between the bodies?

 

[Nova2216]

We would surely welcome some new comments if you care to share.

Jesus never NAMED people in a parable.

Jesus said -

Lu 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Did Jesus Lie?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Were they spirits?

Did spirits leave the body?

Did they exist between the bodies?

Is Satan a spirit along with other demons? Can't a spirit inhabit a body? Didn't Jesus drive out spirits? Isn't a person dead when his spirit leaves his body? You are good with questions but not so good with answers.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Jesus never NAMED people in a parable.

Jesus said -

Lu 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Did Jesus Lie?

A parable can't have people with names? Did Adam really call himself Adam or is that just the way the translators interpreted the name? Did Jesus lie when he said a Samaritan help a person on the road? Are you sure it wasn't a Greek or Roman? Just because the beggar had a name you are going to throw out the verse that say the dead know nothing and burned up and animals die in the same way that men do? Change the whole meaning of things because someone in a story had a name? Still waiting for verses that say dead is not dead and burned up is not burned up. Don't think you can find any so you keep asking questions that have nothing to do with the subject. Of course Jesus did not lie. Were the children in the fairy tale really named Hansel and Grettle? Maybe these were made up names. So we should throw out the fairy tale.

 

[Trailblazer]

It appears that you are so interested in trying to prove what you want to believe that you are willing to contradict even yourself. You said souls or spirits are immortal and can never die or be destroyed and then just a few lines later you admit that there is no scripture that says souls or spirits cannot be destroyed.

There may or may not be any biblical scripture that says that verbatim, but it is implied in the Bible that the soul (spirit) is eternal (lives forever) and that means it cannot be destroyed. That can be stated in more than one way as it is in the Bible.

But if you are looking to believe the soul can be destroyed you can probably find a verse or verses that you can interpret to mean that. That’s the thing about the Bible, you can pretty much make it say whatever you want to believe by selecting verses and mixing and matching verses and ignoring verses you do not like because they disprove what you want to believe. It’s all about psychology.

You want to believe that souls are immortal so you believe it even though there is nothing in the Bible says says that.

You want to believe that souls are not immortal so you look for verses that you think mean that.

Malachi says that SOMETHING will be BURNED UP. It cannot mean the physical body because that is already destroyed in the grave. So it must be the soul or spirit that is BURNED UP and destroyed. I do not need a description of hell. The hell I know about is much worse than anything you can even imagine. You hell is about hot enough to cook a hot dog. My hell is hot enough to BURN THINGS UP. Is Malachi wrong?

I do not believe hell is a physical location where things are burned up. You are making a lot of guesses as to what the verses mean. Please post me the verses and I will tell you what I think they mean.

 

[Nova2216]

Is Satan a spirit along with other demons? Can't a spirit inhabit a body? Didn't Jesus drive out spirits? Isn't a person dead when his spirit leaves his body? You are good with questions but not so good with answers.

A spirit left a body / still existed / and went into another body

TRUE / FALSE


Sometimes it may be good to ask rhetorical questions.

Some people do not like being told anything.

That is why I try to use scriptures and allow them to do the speaking.

Able while being dead still speaks. (Heb.11:4)

How does Able still speak?

Through the scriptures.

The same way the Lord speaks to men today (Heb.1:1-3)

You keep wanting my opinion.

I have the mind of Christ. (Phil. 2:5)

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

There may or may not be any biblical scripture that says that verbatim, but it is implied in the Bible that the soul (spirit) is eternal (lives forever) and that means it cannot be destroyed. That can be stated in more than one way as it is in the Bible.

But if you are looking to believe the soul can be destroyed you can probably find a verse or verses that you can interpret to mean that. That’s the thing about the Bible, you can pretty much make it say whatever you want to believe by selecting verses and mixing and matching verses and ignoring verses you do not like because they disprove what you want to believe. It’s all about psychology.

You want to believe that souls are not immortal so you look for verses that you think mean that.

I do not believe hell is a physical location where things are burned up. You are making a lot of guesses as to what the verses mean. Please post me the verses and I will tell you what I think they mean.

I will say with all due respect that I believe you are a kind and caring person. But I think you are ignoring very clear statements in the Bible in favor of ideas that you think are IMPLIED. 1. I have given verses that say the soul can DIE. You say there are verses that IMPLY souls are immortal. I would like to see them. 2. I do not WANT to believe anything. I list verses that clearly say souls can die and YOU WANT to believe that they IMPLY souls are immortal. 3. Malachi 4:1 clearly says the wicked will be BURNED UP. Verse 4:3 says the wicked will be ASHES under your feet. What do you think this means? What is burned up? What becomes ashes under someone's feet. It cannot be physical bodies because some people died in fires and are already burned up. Why would God worry about burning up physical bodies that have already turned to ashes and dust. God is going to punish the wicked by destroying every last part of them - their spirits. So please tell me what YOU THINK Malachi 4:1-3 mean.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

A spirit left a body / still existed / and went into another body

TRUE / FALSE


Sometimes it may be good to ask rhetorical questions.

Some people do not like being told anything.

That is why I try to use scriptures and allow them to do the speaking.

Able while being dead still speaks. (Heb.11:4)

How does Able still speak?

Through the scriptures.

The same way the Lord speaks to men today (Heb.1:1-3)

You keep wanting my opinion.

I have the mind of Christ. (Phil. 2:5)

You know what? I actually agree with you that sometimes it is better to let scriptures speak for themselves and I respect you for that. At other times a person might need a little help understanding something so it is good to give an explanation. Anyway, I think we need to take a step back and look at something very basic. Almost all Christians believe people have an immortal soul, or some call it spirit. This means the soul or spirit can never die or be destroyed or cease to exist. And this is something that all humans have. In this case, I will not complain if you list as many scriptures as you can that support the idea of the immortal soul or spirit. I feel sure that such a basic belief that is almost universally accepted must have a large number of verse that suppot it. Problem is I have never been able to find them. Someone with the mind of Christ should have no problem coming up with a long list. I will be most happy to read them and mark them in my Bible so I never forget them.

 

[Nova2216]

You know what? I actually agree with you that sometimes it is better to let scriptures speak for themselves and I respect you for that. At other times a person might need a little help understanding something so it is good to give an explanation. Anyway, I think we need to take a step back and look at something very basic. Almost all Christians believe people have an immortal soul, or some call it spirit. This means the soul or spirit can never die or be destroyed or cease to exist. And this is something that all humans have. In this case, I will not complain if you list as many scriptures as you can that support the idea of the immortal soul or spirit. I feel sure that such a basic belief that is almost universally accepted must have a large number of verse that suppot it. Problem is I have never been able to find them. Someone with the mind of Christ should have no problem coming up with a long list. I will be most happy to read them and mark them in my Bible so I never forget them.

It would only take one scripture for me. (Luke 16:19-31)

 

[Trailblazer]

1. I have given verses that say the soul can DIE.
You say there are verses that IMPLY souls are immortal. I would like to see them.
2. I do not WANT to believe anything. I list verses that clearly say souls can die and YOU WANT to believe that they IMPLY souls are immortal.

A soul can die only in the sense of not having eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God vs. a state of the soul that is far from God. A soul that is far from God is dead in comparison to a holy soul that is near to God so it does not have eternal life. Since Jesus said we would have eternal life (John 3:16, John 3:36, John 17:3, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 4:13-14) we know that is in reference to the soul is eternal because the body cannot live forever. It is really that simple.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

What does not perish? The body perishes, so we know Jesus was referring to the soul.
So whenever the scripture says we lose our soul or our soul dies is that our soul will not attain eternal life. The soul did not attain eternal life because it did not believe in Jesus.

3. Malachi 4:1 clearly says the wicked will be BURNED UP. Verse 4:3 says the wicked will be ASHES under your feet. What do you think this means? What is burned up? What becomes ashes under someone's feet. It cannot be physical bodies because some people died in fires and are already burned up. Why would God worry about burning up physical bodies that have already turned to ashes and dust. God is going to punish the wicked by destroying every last part of them - their spirits. So please tell me what YOU THINK Malachi 4:1-3 mean.

Malachi 4
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

These verses are all symbolic, not literal. Nothing will literally be burned up. These verses have nothing to do with the afterlife. They are about what will happen on earth in the day of the Lord, which is in reference to when the Christ Spirit returns to earth.

These verses are congruent with what Jesus said about separating the wheat from the chaff.

The proverbial phrase "separate the wheat from the chaff" may not be terribly meaningful to you — unless you happen to be a grain farmer. The chaff is the husk surrounding a seed, the part of the grain that is generally thrown away.
chaff - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

Matthew 13:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Harvest time is when Christ returns. The Lord of hosts is the return of Christ. Those that recognize Christ will be gathered together in the barn and those who do not recognize Christ will be burned up or destroyed, metaphorically speaking, because they will be far from God, since they rejected God when God sent His Spirit.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

A soul can die only in the sense of not having eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God vs. a state of the soul that is far from God. A soul that is far from God is dead in comparison to a holy soul that is near to God so it does not have eternal life. Since Jesus said we would have eternal life (John 3:16, John 3:36, John 17:3, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 4:13-14) we know that is in reference to the soul is eternal because the body cannot live forever. It is really that simple.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

What does not perish? The body perishes, so we know Jesus was referring to the soul.
So whenever the scripture says we lose our soul or our soul dies is that our soul will not attain eternal life. The soul did not attain eternal life because it did not believe in Jesus.

Malachi 4
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

These verses are all symbolic, not literal. Nothing will literally be burned up. These verses have nothing to do with the afterlife. They are about what will happen on earth in the day of the Lord, which is in reference to when the Christ Spirit returns to earth.

These verses are congruent with what Jesus said about separating the wheat from the chaff.

The proverbial phrase "separate the wheat from the chaff" may not be terribly meaningful to you — unless you happen to be a grain farmer. The chaff is the husk surrounding a seed, the part of the grain that is generally thrown away.
chaff - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

Matthew 13:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Harvest time is when Christ returns. The Lord of hosts is the return of Christ. Those that recognize Christ will be gathered together in the barn and those who do not recognize Christ will be burned up or destroyed, metaphorically speaking, because they will be far from God, since they rejected God when God sent His Spirit.

You have given no scriptures that say spiritual death means simply being far from God. Or that being burned up means being far from God. What happened to the chaff? It was burned up, destroyed. But for some reason, without scripture to support it, you say that being burned up for sould does not mean burned up. That is what I call interpretation, and a very stretched interpretaion at that. I think you cannot give even one scripture that says anything about death or being burned up means separation from God. Why do you think the Bible goes to the trouble of using words like death and burned up? It could very easily say separation from God. The soul that sins will be separated from God. Very easy to say. But it says "will die". I think you are so hung up on things you have heard from some church or religious person that you refuse to believe plain, simple words in the Bible. I say that wil respect for your beliefs but that is the way it is with everyone. They have had ideas and beliefs taught to them for years and so they look for every possible excuse why the Bible does not mean what it clearly says. So I ask again. Can you give ONE scripture that says death is not really death and burned up is not really burned up? Or should I just trust you that you know the Bible does not mean what it says?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It appears that for many Christians the difference between life and death is simply a matter of distance. Alive means close to God and dead means far from God. So everyone's favorite verse Johne 3:16 really should say that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not be far from God but should be near to God.