Does It Matter If God Exists?

[Jayhawker Soule]

I found this interesting because I also like to go into nature to 'reconnect'. I also get a wonderful feeling of peace and tranquility from, say, being out under the stars on a clear, dark night. The 'silent mind' is also something I cultivate.

I think you would really enjoy Ursula Goodenough's The Sacred Depths of Nature.

 

[Polymath257]

I think you would really enjoy Ursula Goodenough's The Sacred Depths of Nature.

I just downloaded it and read the first essay. very interesting!

Thank you.

 

[Left Coast]

No. Why should I agree with you when you are wrong... to my mind.
What skeptics call a demonstration is usually a miracle - that is opening their brain, and making them what they don't want to be.
You will always have a hard time understanding this, and I am not about to even attempt that... again.
One time is all I need to see what a person is. After that I don't travel that road again.

When you read in the Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what comes to mind? I don't mean what you think of God. I mean, think about the expression "harden your heart". I think of a heart of stone, or even granite.
That's a heart impossible to reach.
These expressions are not based on story-telling. We know. We know when we want to do something really really bad, the length we go to convince ourselves against anything that will prevent us.
Now think about it,.. If I keep convincing myself about something, what's going to happen? It becomes seasoned - like mixed concrete left in the sun to solidify.
Some of us know this from experience. We've been there, done that.

The Bible describes the Israelites as stiff-necked. They hardened their heart too. Till they were broken.
No LC. I know the truth. I can see it, and I see that everything the Bible says, is Bang On. Everything.
Agree with you? Not when you are clearly dead wrong.
You are fighting for your independent. Or should I say you have chosen a course of independence.


I don't doubt stories where people change their life. Although there are the few pretenders, many people do want to change, and sometimes they really try. There are factors involved though in where that person chooses, as well as their heart, but I know there are sincere people out there who may hold back from taking the right path - perhaps because of fear, uncertainty, etc., but we JWs don't give up on them. So we keep calling on people's homes; talking to them on the bus; at the market; at work; at school.
Our love for them will keep motivating us to do so, as long as Jehovah keeps the door opened.
When he closes it, that's it. We have done our best.
It's at their heart.

To give one example of what holds some religious folk back - Tradition. Some people fear the ridicule from others, but especially family, and they may feel a sense of loyalty to them. They may be a bit uncertain too, because they have not fully tasted and seen that Jehovah is good, and that he will satisfy their every need.
However, yearly, thousands of people show their interest by accepting a free personal study of the Bible with JWs. Many joyfully become disciples, and join us in helping more people.
The disciple making work is the most joyful endeavor among JWs.


True love to me is what true love is.


Okay. Take care.

Sounds like you're uninterested in continuing the conversation.

Have a nice day, nPeace.

 

[Clara Tea]

If God allows suffering, and everyone fears that God will harm them, they believe out of fear. But if one worships power, then why not worship Satan?

Surely everyone has heard the "fire and brimstone" lectures about getting punished for not believing in God.

 

[rrobs]

Actually my disagreement is with the premise that what the Bible says actually happened. If we discuss the internal narrative with the assumption that what the bible says is true, then I would agree with you on the most part. The scriptures themselves are in dispute, and a lot of Christians as well hold this view. For instance many Christians believe Genesis to be metaphorical and that Adam is representative of something else and was not a literal person. You are speaking from the premise that the Bible conveys the truth, whereas I am not, and if we do not agree on the premises then we cannot discuss the contents of the books with a view to it revealing the truth.

My takeaway from all of this is that, for some inexplicable reason, you don't agree with everything I say. I don't know what to make of that.

Take care.

 

[Samael_Khan]

My takeaway from all of this is that, for some inexplicable reason, you don't agree with everything I say. I don't know what to make of that.

Take care.

Well.... you actually quote me where I gave the explicable reason.

You take care too!

 

[Quintessence]

I think you would really enjoy Ursula Goodenough's The Sacred Depths of Nature.

Stuff like this is basically the foundation of many contemporary Paganisms, including my own. I'm a big fan of her works.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the belief or disbelief still wasn't a choice. We cannot switch on and off what I believe in and what I don't. I can be in denial, but still know that I belief deep inside. If that was the case you could choose to be an atheist at will and I don't think that is possible.

I understand that belief is not something nonbelievers can switch on, but by the same token belief is not something that believers can switch off, unless they lose faith, in which case the light switch goes off. I understand that is what has happened to many nonbelievers who were formerly believers.

Funny thing that on many occasions my husband has asked me why I do not 'become' an atheist, since I was so angry at God all the time, and I told him I cannot do that because I know that God exists. So I continued to try to 'make it right' with God and that is a work in progress. I have had some breakthroughs recently, when I came to some realizations and cleared up some misconceptions I had for so long.

OK. Lets test this then. What falsifying criteria would prove that God doesn't exists?

I do not think there is any way to prove that God exists, not anymore than any one can prove that God exists as a fact, even though some people 'believe' they can. However, I think we can each prove that God exists to ourselves and then we know. I believe that is how God intended it to be because I believe we all have the 'capacity' to believe God exists.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Before I try to answer your question, I first have to say that I've been on Internet forums for some 20 years and that is the best question anyone has ever asked me. Not only because of the question itself, but being spiritually blessed my entire life, with everything coming more or less easily, I never really considered what it would be like for all the "others" who hadn't a clue how to even start on their spiritual path. So I thank you for such a thought provoking question.

Let me assure you, that my question being the best you have come across is purely by accident on my part XD

I also want to state that I'm so not a teacher. I have a tough enough time trying to articulate my spiritual experiences so that others can get some idea of them, which usually doesn't go too well because it's all outside of their physical world everyday experiences. So I find it too draining to go into most spiritual matters too deeply.

I think I understand that.

Now to answer your question.

Both.

For myself I try to view the world around me with as little man made distractions as possible. Spending as much time as possible exploring the natural world, the outdoors, wilderness. It keeps me connected to God, spiritually balanced, and silences my mind so God can answer my spiritual questions. And in my dealings with people, I am always prepared for any spiritual lessons that may be presented to me. To understand what is going on, and how I should deal with it.

But while the above is important, it's just the foundation of it all. The key to "connecting" with God is to "connect" with your soul, inner self, higher self, whatever you may call it. It helps make it easier if one feels connected to God, is spiritually balanced, and MUST have a silent mind. As that is the very first thing God taught me, how to silence my mind so that I could have full access to my soul. Then one can know God and seek true spiritual answers directly from the source. There's more to doing that, but I'm at a loss for the words on how to describe going any further. So all I can do is recommend trying various meditative techniques that does NOT require any noise or chanting until you find the one that works best for you.

So in summary if I understand you correctly:

Foundations:
- Endulge in nature and not man made constructions
- Be open to spiritual lessons

- Connect with your inner self
- Silence your mind
- Try using various noiseless meditative techniques

From what you are saying, it seems to me to be a process trusting your intuition and embracing your true self? I certainly understand why shunning man made constructions in intervals is a requirement because from what I have experienced, I feel way more refreshed and calm when in nature. I have suspected that there is something about nature that has an impact on why people believe in God whereas being surrounded by "concrete" makes on detached.

My follow up question will be though: How do you know that you have connected to God?

Ok, but in context to my comments on religions, too many people just get "locked in" to ONE spiritually void religion and do nothing but let other men lie to them about their "god".

But spiritual teachings are a different thing all together.

OK. I get what you mean. Many people are too closed minded about religion because they follow a cult of personality and what that personality says rather than search for God. They might as well not care about God but follow the man as God.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I understand that belief is not something nonbelievers can switch on, but by the same token belief is not something that believers can switch off, unless they lose faith, in which case the light switch goes off. I understand that is what has happened to many nonbelievers who were formerly believers.

So we agree

Funny thing that on many occasions my husband has asked me why I do not 'become' an atheist, since I was so angry at God all the time, and I told him I cannot do that because I know that God exists. So I continued to try to 'make it right' with God and that is a work in progress. I have had some breakthroughs recently, when I came to some realizations and cleared up some misconceptions I had for so long.

Well, I would say that your husband was asking you to stop believing in God for a bad reason. I remember you being angry with God, as it cropped up in a few conversations we had.

I do not think there is any way to prove that God exists, not anymore than any one can prove that God exists as a fact, even though some people 'believe' they can. However, I think we can each prove that God exists to ourselves and then we know. I believe that is how God intended it to be because I believe we all have the 'capacity' to believe God exists.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

It makes sense to say that everybody has the capacity to believe that God exists. The bigger matter to ask though is whether God actually exists? Just because everybody can believe in something, doesn't make that something true.

 

[Trailblazer]

My follow up question will be though: How do you know that you have connected to God?

That my friend is the hundred-dollar question.
Anyone can claim that they have connected with God, but why should we believe them? What is their evidence? A personal testimony is by no means evidence. People can imagine all kinds of things or misinterpret experiences they have, believing it was God when it was something else entirely that they experienced. So what is very 'real' to them is not necessarily real.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I would say that your husband was asking you to stop believing in God for a bad reason. I remember you being angry with God, as it cropped up in a few conversations we had.

Thanks for remembering. My husband just got sick of listening to me and also he could not understand why I would want to believe in a God I hated. I turned a corner recently because I do not blame God for what I was blaming Him for before since I no longer believe that God us deliberately sending me tests and difficulties as a way to see if I will pass. Life simply has hardships and come people have more than others. It is not necessary for God to send us any more than we already have!

It makes sense to say that everybody has the capacity to believe that God exists. The bigger matter to ask though is whether God actually exists? Just because everybody can believe in something, doesn't make that something true.

That is true, but I am glad to see that you understand that IF God exists everyone would have the capacity to believe that God exists, even if not everyone is able to use that capacity. I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God and this is based upon what is in the Bible and the Writings of the Bab.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

 

[Polymath257]

Stuff like this is basically the foundation of many contemporary Paganisms, including my own. I'm a big fan of her works.

Even though I self-identify as an atheist (or apatheist or ignostic), I do have an affinity with modern Paganism. I find I relate more to Pagans than I do with Abrahamics.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My takeaway from all of this is that, for some inexplicable reason, you don't agree with everything I say. I don't know what to make of that.

I am not surprised. I too do not agree with anything that you say. You are a Christian believer and I am an atheist. Perhaps Israel Khan also differs with you for some such reason.

“.. that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”

Divine fail (or the failure of your Iranian preacher). Either your Allah or your Iranian preacher is lying. Existence of atheist disproves that.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down , and is reckoned among such as are well assured."

Don't you get tired of this business of believeth, worshippeth (none other God but him, proving again that there are other Gods and your Allah is not the only one), boweth (by day and by night, and does nothing else). Purge, what does your Allah or the Iranian preacher mean by that. The atheists will be killed? Like the purge in Soviet Union or in Mao's China, or even worse, in Pol Pot's Cambodia? Can you give some date? Everybody is talking of the end of days.

 

[Samael_Khan]

That my friend is the hundred-dollar question.
Anyone can claim that they have connected with God, but why should we believe them? What is their evidence? A personal testimony is by no means evidence. People can imagine all kinds of things or misinterpret experiences they have, believing it was God when it was something else entirely that they experienced. So what is very 'real' to them is not necessarily real.

Exactly! I think what you are saying is the deep root of the God conundrum which are possibly the scary questions that many religious people are afraid to even ask themselves. Often times when I speak to certain religious people asking this question cause me to hit a wall, as often they respond by I would know if I had enough faith which just begs the question.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thanks for remembering. My husband just got sick of listening to me and also he could not understand why I would want to believe in a God I hated. I turned a corner recently because I do not blame God for what I was blaming Him for before since I no longer believe that God us deliberately sending me tests and difficulties as a way to see if I will pass. Life simply has hardships and come people have more than others. It is not necessary for God to send us any more than we already have!

Your husband seems to have a weird viewpoint of why a person believes in a god. If God is real, then one should still believe in his existence despite despising him. As for God sending tests, if a god does exist then he created life to follow its course of cause and effect as evidenced by what I see around me. The reasons why certain things happen in our lives is extremely complicated and also involves the consequences of the choices of various people, so for God to intervene to prevent something negative from happening to people would require him to negate freedom of choice from all individuals involved, which negates free will. So if we have choice, I think it is unlikely for God to intervene in people's lives to such an extent. That being said, to me it does seem that some people have more hardships than others and it has caused me to ponder whether luck is actually an attribute of each individual on the planet. Obviously I cannot prove that but it just seems that some people are luckier than others.

That is true, but I am glad to see that you understand that IF God exists everyone would have the capacity to believe that God exists, even if not everyone is able to use that capacity. I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God and this is based upon what is in the Bible and the Writings of the Bab.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

The reason why I believe that everybody has the capacity to believe that God exists is because of how people come to determine whether a god exists or not. Give a person enough adversity in their lives and get a charismatic individual to provide them with a god based hope and you will get them to believe in that god. This would work even if there actually is no god.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly! I think what you are saying is the deep root of the God conundrum which are possibly the scary questions that many religious people are afraid to even ask themselves. Often times when I speak to certain religious people asking this question cause me to hit a wall, as often they respond by I would know if I had enough faith which just begs the question.

It is not only religious believers who claim that the Messengers/Prophets of their respective religions received messages from God, which of course can never be proven, it is also believers who believe in God but have no religion, such as the poster you were responding to when I responded to your post.

These believers claim to have had some kind of personal experiences and/or communication from God and some say they know God. This is very suspect to me; in fact I do not believe they ever had any direct experience of God or any communication from God, although they might have had some kind of spiritual experience. The basis for that belief is my belief that nobody except God's chosen Messengers such as Moses, Jesus, and Baha'u'llah can ever receive communication from God.

In my opinion, there is a reason to believe that that the Messengers of God who established all the great religions received communication from God even if it cannot be proven, because of their scriptures and their mission on earth that resulted in something of value to humanity. By contrast, there is no reason to believe someone who has no scriptures or mission on earth, just because they make claims to have knowledge from God or spiritual knowledge. How could that ever be validated? At least with someone such as Baha'u'llah we can cross check what He wrote with the Bible and scriptures of other religions such as Hinduism to see if the spiritual truths are the same. If they are that is an indication that these messages came from God, the same God, who Baha'is refer to as the one true God. Sure there will be differences between these religions because times change and God reveals a new message, but the essential spiritual truths never change, they are eternal.

 

[Milton Platt]

There are lots of threads floating around the forums these days arguing for and against God's existence.

God has not made her presence known to me in my life. I see no reason to need to believe in her in order to be happy, to reason, to behave ethically, or to understand how things work.

Perhaps God judges our fate in the afterlife? If there is some life beyond death in which she will judge me, I have no control over my fate, as I don't even know what the nature of such an afterlife would be, or by what criteria I'll be judged. Humans offer lots of opinions on that subject, but none has presented a convincing argument that demonstrates they are any more in the know on the subject than I am. So I have no reason to live my life any differently based on what may or may not happen beyond death.

In short, even if God does exist...does it matter?

I have not seen convincing evidence. Which particular god is this thread addressing, anyway?

 

[Trailblazer]

Your husband seems to have a weird viewpoint of why a person believes in a god. If God is real, then one should still believe in his existence despite despising him.

My husband is not always the most logical person. In fact, I'd say he is more emotional and I am more logical. A few weeks ago we got lost in the country coming back from a trip and he told me to keep driving even though neither one of us had any idea if we were going in the right direction in order to get home. I listened to him for a while and finally I realized I had to do something different because it was insanity to keep driving not knowing where we were going or where we might end up. Finally we ended up at a small tavern and I pulled over and tried to flag down some cars for directions and when that didn't work I called 911 for directions. I immediately got good directions and we made our way home.

Obviously, if God exists God exists, and I am not going to stop believing in God because I do not like Him. I not only can't stop believing, it would not be wise to stop, knowing what I know about God and the possible consequences.

As for God sending tests, if a god does exist then he created life to follow its course of cause and effect as evidenced by what I see around me. The reasons why certain things happen in our lives is extremely complicated and also involves the consequences of the choices of various people, so for God to intervene to prevent something negative from happening to people would require him to negate freedom of choice from all individuals involved, which negates free will. So if we have choice, I think it is unlikely for God to intervene in people's lives to such an extent. That being said, to me it does seem that some people have more hardships than others and it has caused me to ponder whether luck is actually an attribute of each individual on the planet. Obviously I cannot prove that but it just seems that some people are luckier than others.

I fully agree with all of what you said above. I am a firm believer in free will and personal responsibility and I do not believe God intervenes to effect outcomes in this world. As for tests and suffering or lack thereof, I think much of it is just luck of the draw. or fate. Whether the happy people who suffered little in this life will be better off in the afterlife is not known, but to the extent that suffering helps us grow stronger and more spiritual and develop our character, I think we are better off even in this life, and there are many examples of that. Compare our U.S. presidential candidates for example. Joe Biden has undergone many hardships and he has character, the other candidate not so much.

The reason why I believe that everybody has the capacity to believe that God exists is because of how people come to determine whether a god exists or not. Give a person enough adversity in their lives and get a charismatic individual to provide them with a god based hope and you will get them to believe in that god. This would work even if there actually is no god.

That is a legitimate point, people could just as easily believe in God if there was no God, but I also think that people have the capacity to believe in God if God actually exists, since it makes sense to me that God would create us with that capacity if God wanted to be believed in. However, if God was a deist God all bets are off because He would not care what we believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have not seen convincing evidence. Which particular god is this thread addressing, anyway?

Didn't you know, there is only one true God, although there are many imposters.

Good to see you again Milton, you are one of my favorite atheists. I have three now.