Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Kfox]

That was not my point. My question was how you would know it was a true God speaking.
How would it be evidence of God's existence if the voice was not from God?

Just so we're on the same page, how are you defining the difference between a God vs a true God?

 

[Kfox]

No, it wouldn't. It could be that something political was going on.
Some people don't believe that Neil Armstrong has been to the moon. They think that it was all political and simulated in a studio.
I don't believe that, of course

A voice from the sky would be far more effective than a man on the moon. A voice from the sky would result in the US military sending up F35 jets into the sky for security reasons, all the other countries would do the same and every country in the world doing this would report it to not being a hoax. This event would be covered by ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News, CNN and every other media outlet worldwide stating it is not a hoax. You would experience the exact same thing the guy next to you are experiencing. A voice from the sky would be 100 times more effective than watching something on TV.

However, if I saw on the News that G-d had "spoken from the sky", I would be highly skeptical. Why would He do that?

Perhaps he would do that because that is the most effective means of getting his message across.

Plenty of people have a strong faith

But if the vast majority of people have faith in the wrong God, are getting the wrong message, or are getting manipulated by crooked people claiming to speak for God. A voice from the sky would clear all of that up; everybody would be able to get their information from the source instead of secondhand information.

WITHOUT G-d shouting at us for no reason as to "force us" to believe.

A voice from the sky would not force anybody to believe, you still have the option to reject the voice from the sky.

Believe what, in any case? That G-d has a voice box, or is able to
make miracles?

Believe you are getting your message from God himself instead of men who write books claiming they speak for God without providing proof that they actually do.

That is already known. By definition, one who is responsible for creating and maintaining this universe can do practically anything.

Evidently he can’t convince most people of who he is because not a single religion has the majority of population as believers. However a voice from the sky could clear all of that up.

That wouldn't include the absurd, because we are not making claims about illogical trick statements.

A voice from the sky is not absurd; after all how many times has a voice from the sky happened in the Old Testament? If it were not absurd then, why would it be now? Especially when such a voice would be confirmed by the technology of today

People who don't accept Jesus or Muhammad have their reasons.

Yes! Jesus never wrote anything down so nobody really knows what Jesus actually said, we just know what other people claimed he said (and of course there is not a consensus on what he said so who are you supposed to believe?). Muhammad never claimed to be God.

We all follow what we wish to follow. We all have our reasons.
If we think that all we see can manifest itself without reason or purpose, then that is our claim.

The best an honest person seeking the truth can do is to work with the best information he has at the moment. The way I see it, God should give all who seek him all the information needed to find him, and a voice from the sky will do that better than anything else.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The way I see it, God should give all who seek him all the information needed to find him, and a voice from the sky will do that better than anything else.

That all depends on what you think G-d is..
G-d could make us all believe the same thing, if He so wished.
He is closer to us than our jugular vein.

He has created us all with "a soul".
The soul comes from G-d.
Primarily, It is the soul which determines what we believe, and not the academic knowledge that we might possess.

G-d doesn't need a loud-hailer from the sky.
We are already "connected" to G-d .. or not.
G-d can do what He wills.
He is able to guide us without public broadcast.

G-d knows best why people follow/belong to different creeds etc.
It is not a black & white issue.
Humans do not have a black & white view of the world.
G-d does not require anything more than sincerity, and effort.

G-d is not a person in the sky.
Every soul is of G-d.

 

[CG Didymus]

That was not my point. My question was how you would know it was a true God speaking.
How would it be evidence of God's existence if the voice was not from God?

If the voice said, "I am the Lord thy God", why wouldn't it be better evidence than a man saying, "I have been sent by the Lord thy God"?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's not really what I was referring to..
I mean, does the whole struggle of human life have no more significance than "humans just happened to evolve, and the last 2000 years of our history just happened to evolve", and that's all there is to it?

Yeah, it seems like there should be more meaning to life. It does seem like we are destined for something. But each religion has a slightly different take on it. So, are the Scriptures of some of the religions fictional? Including the Bible? Things like the creation story, the flood, the tower of Babel, did Elijah fly off in a fiery chariot, then in the NT... did Jesus walk on water, was he virgin born, did God speak from heaven, did Jesus rise from the dead, did Jesus die on the cross, etc.?

If those things happened, they'd be evidence for God. And lots of Christians do believe they literally happened and think that proves that God is real. But Baha'is say most of those, and maybe all of them, were fictional and meant to be taken metaphorically. So why would anybody believe God is real when the stories in the Bible about him are fictional. So, how then are these Bible stories interpreted in Islam?

 

[CG Didymus]

G-d could make us all believe the same thing, if He so wished.

I think that is exactly what the Baha'is are claiming. Baha'u'llah has been sent to unite all people. He claim is that all religions, at least the major ones, are true and from God. Now is the time to put away our differences and recognize the truth... that we are one people and there is only one religion, the religion from God. And the Baha'i Faith is God's latest message to us. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then God does want us to believe the same thing, and he has told us that is what he wants. Yet, most of us don't believe it. Why is that?

So, just like what would be evidence for God to Atheists, what would be evidence to people that believe in all the different religions that Baha'u'llah is a true messenger from God and should be listened to and followed?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, just like what would be evidence for God to Atheists, what would be evidence to people that believe in all the different religions that Baha'u'llah is a true messenger from God and should be listened to and followed?

I couldn't subscribe to it.
I don't believe that pig-meat could be made lawful.
People conjure up all sorts of reasons why it is no longer prohibited by G-d.
Even if they were valid [ which they are not in my opinion ], there would be no need to embrace eating pigs, and hoarding wealth in bank accounts that increase in value etc.

..so it was Muslims who wanted the freedoms of Christians that embraced this type of philosophy, imo.
The truth is not easy to follow. Many Christians claim that the law was cancelled because it is impossible for a human to follow.
Jesus did not cancel it.
Roman gentile authority cancelled it.

 

[Kfox]

That all depends on what you think G-d is..
G-d could make us all believe the same thing, if He so wished.
He is closer to us than our jugular vein.

Do you agree if God could easily make us believe, he has no moral right to punish us for choosing the wrong religion?

He has created us all with "a soul".
The soul comes from G-d.
Primarily, It is the soul which determines what we believe, and not the academic knowledge that we might possess.

Why did he give most people souls that direct them to the false Gods?

G-d doesn't need a loud-hailer from the sky.
We are already "connected" to G-d .. or not.
G-d can do what He wills.
He is able to guide us without public broadcast.

Without the public broadcast, most people are not connected to God

G-d knows best why people follow/belong to different creeds etc.
It is not a black & white issue.
Humans do not have a black & white view of the world.

Actually many people (perhaps too many) do have such a view of the world; and their view of God reflects their black and white views.

G-d does not require anything more than sincerity, and effort.

Again; sincerity and effort leads most people to the wrong God.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How would it be evidence of God's existence if the voice was not from God?

This is the question you have been asked when claiming that the life and words of a Messenger is evidence of a God as you claim it is. How would those words be evidence of God's existence if the words were not from God. You've never addressed that. You just say that they are evidence for you. Apparently, that standard only applies to written words.

Happy holidays, Trailblazer.

does the whole struggle of human life have no more significance than "humans just happened to evolve

Significance to whom? it's quite significant to me and billions of others, but probably not to Halley's comet or most of the rest of the universe. I'm perfectly content with that possibility. It's one of the premiums of secular humanism. One learns to accept the possibility of his insignificance everywhere but earth, and that he might be unloved except by those who know him - people, and maybe a few animals, that he may be mortal and not watched over, that there may be no god or afterlife, and that any meaning to life is determined by the living.

It's not that hard, and it might be correct.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..sincerity and effort leads most people to the wrong God.

How do you know that?

 

[Kfox]

How do you know that?

As I pointed out before, there is not a single religion that has more than 50% of the worlds population; so if we assume there is a single correct concept of God, you have to conclude most (over 50%) do not accept that interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just so we're on the same page, how are you defining the difference between a God vs a true God?

A true God is the God that actually exists in reality.
An imaginary god is a god someone only imagines exists.
According to my beliefs there is only one true God.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[Trailblazer]

But if the vast majority of people have faith in the wrong God, are getting the wrong message, or are getting manipulated by crooked people claiming to speak for God. A voice from the sky would clear all of that up; everybody would be able to get their information from the source instead of secondhand information.

It is true that the vast majority of people have misconceptions about God and faith in a God that has been misconceived.

How do you think a voice from the sky would clear that up? Do you think most people would believe that voice was God? I highly doubt it. Most people would keep doing what they are now doing, clinging tenaciously to the religion they believe in, which is the essential problem, because that is why there are so many different beliefs and misconceptions about God.

We can get information from the Source, but it has to come through the Messengers who were sent by that Source to represent that Source since that is how the Source communicates.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the voice said, "I am the Lord thy God", why wouldn't it be better evidence than a man saying, "I have been sent by the Lord thy God"?

It would be better evidence if the Voice could ever be verified to be the Voice of God.
Do you understand the problem? We are right back to square one.

 

[Kfox]

A true God is the God that actually exists in reality.
An imaginary god is a god someone only imagines exists.
According to my beliefs there is only one true God.

Thanks for the clarification. To answer your question, for me there is no difference between a God vs a true God, so my answer applies to both. There will be no way of knowing immediately if the voice from the sky is speaking the truth of himself, but whatever he says, it will be a lot more believable than having flawed men capable of lies, deceit, and falsehoods telling me he speaks for God; which seems to be the system in place right now.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How would it be evidence of God's existence if the voice was not from God?

This is the question you have been asked when claiming that the life and words of a Messenger is evidence of a God as you claim it is. How would those words be evidence of God's existence if the words were not from God.

The answer to that question is obvious. They would not be evidence of God's existence if the words were not from God.

You've never addressed that. You just say that they are evidence for you. Apparently, that standard only applies to written words.

I say I believe that everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the evidence for God, not only what He wrote. No two people think alike so I cannot make anyone else see it as I see it.

Happy holidays, Trailblazer.

Happy holidays to you too, if you are celebrating the holidays down there in Mexico.

 

[Kfox]

It is true that the vast majority of people have misconceptions about God and faith in a God that has been misconceived.

How do you know you aren’t one of those people? After all they have the same faith you have.

How do you think a voice from the sky would clear that up? Do you think most people would believe that voice was God?

I don’t know about most, but a lot more would believe than now!

I highly doubt it. Most people would keep doing what they are now doing, clinging tenaciously to the religion they believe in, which is the essential problem, because that is why there are so many different beliefs and misconceptions about God.

We can get information from the Source, but it has to come through the Messengers who were sent by that Source to represent that Source since that is how the Source communicates.

I disagree! Information should come from the source, not someone claiming to represent the source; that’s how we got into the mess we in right now with religion, everybody claiming to represent God when they are really just looking for power. After all; how are you supposed to know this guy claiming to speak for God actually is? Now a voice from the sky…..

 

[Trailblazer]

There will be no way of knowing immediately if the voice from the sky is speaking the truth of himself, but whatever he says, it will be a lot more believable than having flawed men capable of lies, deceit, and falsehoods telling me he speaks for God; which seems to be the system in place right now.

It would be more believable to you and maybe other atheists, but not necessarily more believable to everyone. Religious believers who constitute about 84% of the world population would know it was not God because we know that God does not speak from the sky.

The system in place right now is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah since we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. As such, people no longer have to listen to flawed men capable of lies, deceit, and falsehood.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

Baha'is believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God and that Messenger is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger of God for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

I believe that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates the Dispensations that preceded it making them null and void.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know you aren’t one of those people? After all they have the same faith you have.

That s a legitimate question. How I know is by looking at all the evidence, and I also believe that God has a part in the conclusions I came to from looking at the evidence.

I don’t know about most, but a lot more would believe than now!

Maybe so, but here is the thing.... Why do you think it is important that more people believe in God?
And if it was not the real God, why would it matter how many people believed?

I disagree! Information should come from the source, not someone claiming to represent the source; that’s how we got into the mess we in right now with religion, everybody claiming to represent God when they are really just looking for power. After all; how are you supposed to know this guy claiming to speak for God actually is? Now a voice from the sky…..

If the information came from the source no human could understand the source. And think of how it would be possible for a God speaking from the sky to reveal all the information that was revealed tho the Messengers in such a way that everyone would have ready access to it. Clearly Messengers who write scriptures is the best way for humans to have access to information about God and what God's will is for humans. All that could not be conveyed to everyone from a God speaking from the sky.

Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets, and thus far only about 15% of them have been translated into English. Nevertheless we have a the most important works in the Baha’i Reference Library online.

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Tiberius]

It would be better evidence if the Voice could ever be verified to be the Voice of God.
Do you understand the problem? We are right back to square one.

And we'd have the same problem if the voice was from a man claiming to speak for God. How would we verify that he actually was speaking for God?