What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

Iow, I have no clue!

No, quite the contrary! When it comes to the subject of God, you are the most knowledgeable nonbeliever I have ever met...

If I did not know better I'd say you were a Baha'i.... Maybe it is because you have been reading my Gleanings passages for so long... a girl can only hope.

Of course, there are so many things nobody has a clue about because God is for the most part a mystery.

 

[Trailblazer]

What God knows does not determine what happens, what god knows is the consequence of determinism.

In a deterministic universe we could not have made a different choice.

So do you believe we live in a deterministic universe?
How can we ever know that we could not have made a different choice?

 

[John53]

My system has a point to it because it gives us a reason for for life on earth, including the joy and the suffering.

Those suffering probably don't share your enthusiasm.

What would be the point of God implanting memories of things that never happened to people into their minds.

No point at all because it couldn't happen, it was a hypothetical to try and help me understand the meaning of life from your perspective. I admit failure to get that across.

That's true, there are a couple of us, but we can only know what was revealed through the Messengers we believe in and that certainly is not everything.

Nor is it fact, it's probably not even an educated guess. It relies on your ability to know a genuine prophet from a charlatan, it relies on interpretation and it relies on accurate translations.

The religions are not trying to control people, they are just trying to give you a chance to get to heaven. How fair would it be if we did not give you a roadmap and then expected you to find your own way?

In my opinion the main purpose of religion is to control people.

You asked why God created us, what was the purpose of creating us and I answered with the only answer I have. God created us out of His love for us. God has no needs since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining, so God does not need anything from us, including our love, but God loves us nonetheless even if we do not love Him.

We're basically gods ant farm.

I know that and since I cannot disbelieve I am kind of in between a rock and a hard place, stuck with these feelings about God I can do nothing about.

There's always hope. Well I hope so.

 

[Heyo]

So do you believe we live in a deterministic universe?

All the (quantum) physics and maths point to a non-deterministic universe.

How can we ever know that we could not have made a different choice?

We can't. What we can know is that the universe can't have free choice and perfect foreknowledge. They are contradictory.
Either our choices are not free, or knowledge can't be perfect.
(Except very wild concepts of time where the past can be changed or time is somehow cyclic.)

 

[Trailblazer]

Those suffering probably don't share your enthusiasm.

Enthusiasm? I am the one with the suffering, not the joy.

No point at all because it couldn't happen, it was a hypothetical to try and help me understand the meaning of life from your perspective. I admit failure to get that across.

I got the point even though I don't agree with it.

Nor is it fact, it's probably not even an educated guess. It relies on your ability to know a genuine prophet from a charlatan, it relies on interpretation and it relies on accurate translations.

You are correct, it does rely upon all of that, but it is really not that difficult to know a genuine prophet from a charlatan, as Jesus said:

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

In my opinion the main purpose of religion is to control people.

What religions do you think are controlling people? My religion surely isn't.

We're basically gods ant farm.

In a certain sense you are right. We are chess pieces on God's chess board called earth.

There's always hope. Well I hope so.

Thanks, it is a little better than in the past but I am still spitting mad at God over the animal suffering and death.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can't. What we can know is that the universe can't have free choice and perfect foreknowledge. They are contradictory.
Either our choices are not free, or knowledge can't be perfect.

Sorry if we covered this before, but why can't we have free choice and perfect foreknowledge?

 

[Trailblazer]

@osgart

For the post part...

I said: Of course, there are so many things nobody has a clue about because God is for the post part a mystery.
I meant: Of course, there are so many things nobody has a clue about because God is for the most part a mystery.

I hate my typos!

 

[Trailblazer]

If its nature, he was born to worry about free will.

That is probably me, I was born to worry... Since my parents never talked to me it cannot be nurture.

 

[Trailblazer]

muhammad_isa said: It is our perception that the future "has not happened yet".
For God, His perception is that the future has happened already. It is as if this universe is like a bottle in a time warp, in which we are oblivious to. We consider our perception of time as the only one possible .. as absolute.

Our choices aren't made until we make them, as far as we are concerned .. God's ability to see the future does not change this.

Nimos said: But in that case, there wouldn't be any free will.

Why wouldn't there be any free will in that case?

 

[osgart]

I don't know about that .. you seem to be quite thoughtful on the subject.

I'm straining to understand actually.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God know you will buy a red car, will you buy a red car then?

Yes, you will buy a red car if God knew you would buy a red car, but...
If you bought a blue car, God would have known you would buy a blue car...
If you bought a green car, God would have known you would buy a green car...
If you bought a purple car, God would have known you would buy a purple car...
If you bought a brown car, God would have known you would buy a brown car...
If you bought a orange car, God would have known you would buy a orange car...

Now don't forget, you were the one who said this was fun.

 

[John53]

Sorry for the chop, I'm over the other stuff.

What religions do you think are controlling people? My religion surely isn't.

All religions. Baha'i has no rules to follow?

Anyway new enquiry... is there free will in the promised paradise?

 

[osgart]

No, quite the contrary! When it comes to the subject of God, you are the most knowledgeable nonbeliever I have ever met...

If I did not know better I'd say you were a Baha'i.... Maybe it is because you have been reading my Gleanings passages for so long... a girl can only hope.

Of course, there are so many things nobody has a clue about because God is for the most part a mystery.

Ok that's a shock. I don't figure myself to understand this stuff. But if you say so!

 

[John53]

No, but you do! So I am arguing from the assumption that such a god does exist, in order to show the contradiction involved.

You have to wonder why that's so hard to understand. It should not be necessary to keep telling someone you're an atheist and lack belief in any gods every post. Although it did become a little clearer when @muhammad_isa stated that those with opinions different to his should not participate in the discussion. So much for free will.

 

[blü 2]

It was all created as God intended it to be, but humans were given free will and then all hell broke loose.

I don't see how humans could have theological free will if God is omnipotent omniscient and perfect.

And even if [he] were, I don't see how humans could have real free will since we're all reliant on our real brains and they, though exquisitely complex, nonetheless work by interacting chains of physical cause+effect.

To put that another way, what are the thought processes of an immaterial being and how do they operate? Talk me through what actually happens when God is making a decision.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok that's a shock. I don't figure myself to understand this stuff. But if you say so!

You underestimate yourself but that is not always a bad thing.

 

[Heyo]

Sorry if we covered this before,

Yes, we did.

but why can't we have free choice and perfect foreknowledge?

I'm currently at a loss explaining it. For me the contradiction is obvious. I'm going to bed now (it's 01:22 here), maybe I can think more clearly tomorrow.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry for the chop, I'm over the other stuff.

You know I'm glad.

All religions. Baha'i has no rules to follow?

Yes, there are Baha'i Laws.

Anyway new enquiry... is there free will in the promised paradise?

Good question, and a very important one...
No, in the next world there is no free will like we have in this world and that is why it is so important to use your free will while you can. We advance spiritually in this world by making choices with our free will but in the next world we have to rely upon the mercy of God and the prayers of other people to advance.

That is why there are so many warnings in the Bible, Qur'an, and the Baha'i Writings about what we are to do in this life.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm currently at a loss explaining it. For me the contradiction is obvious. I'm going to bed now (it's 01:22 here), maybe I can think more clearly tomorrow.

Okay, see you tomorrow.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see how humans could have theological free will if God is omnipotent omniscient and perfect.

I certainly don't know why not. After all, an omnipotent God can do anything, so of course He could give humans free will. And just because God can do anything that does not mean God wants to do everything He can do. God has delegated the task of taking care of the world and each other to humans.

As far as God being omniscient, there is no reason why God cannot know everything including what we will choose with our free will. There is no contradiction.

And even if [he] were, I don't see how humans could have real free will since we're all reliant on our real brains and they, though exquisitely complex, nonetheless work by interacting chains of physical cause+effect.

How free we are to choose is another subject altogether. Free will has many constraints but that does not mean we cannot choose anything at all.

To put that another way, what are the thought processes of an immaterial being and how do they operate? Talk me through what actually happens when God is making a decision.

I really have no idea. Nobody except God knows the mind of God and how it operates.

I do not think that God makes decisions. Why would God have to make decisions when God already knows everything that has happened and everything that will ever happen?

God wills things to happen in this world and then they happen. I believe that is how it works.