What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Heyo]

All true.

Here is your problem.
Whatever color car you choose to buy will be the color of car that God has always known you will buy.
You have a choice as to which color car you will buy.

You have things backwards.
You can choose to buy any color car you want to buy.
God has always known what color of car you would buy, because God is all-knowing and God has foreknowledge.
If you decided to buy a red car, God would have known you were going to buy a red car,
If you decided to buy a green car, God would have known you were going to buy a green car.

Remember that I told you that there is no contradiction if time doesn't flow linear?

That is the case in your example. I choose to buy a red car - and god knew that I'd buy a red car.
My decision altered the past. The cause comes after the effect.

 

[KWED]

What are you trying to say here?
Are you saying that if G-d knows what we will do in the future, [because for Him it has already happened] .. and He "pops" in to the universe, this somehow changes things?

You claim god is "outside spacetime". Basically I am trying to ascertain what the means to us, in this universe, with our liner time, our cause and effect, in practice.
You just keep asserting that because he is "outside spacetime", god fixing the future does not restrict our free will, without explaining the process by which this happens.
The other problem is that god is clearly not always or completely "outside spacetime" as he constantly interacts with the universe and its inhabitants - unless you are claiming that he set everything up to a predetermined plan 14 billion years ago and then retired to "outside spacetime" and simply watches his plan unfold?

 

[KWED]

God is not a physical person..
He doesn't "live" anywhere, as in an actual geographical place.

You claimed he does inhabit some places and not others. Which contradicts the general claim by Abrahamic religions that "god is everywhere". I have never read a passage or heard a preacher say "god is not in this universe".

So which is it? Either he is in this universe or he isn't.

 

[KWED]

Do you know what you are describing here? You may not call it so but it is determinism.

Do we agree that a free choice is one where you can do either A or B and if it was possible to go back in time you could make a different choice?

I gave up with @Trailblazer some time ago. She blithely switches positions depending on the position of the other person, without a shred of self-awareness, as well as admitting to holding mutually exclusive positions yet insisting both are valid.

 

[KWED]

I think it is wrong to act on an evil impulse .. but I can see how it could happen.

Well, it depends on how you define "evil".

If someone tortured you and your family because you would not renounce Islam, would you consider that "evil"? I certainly would.

 

[Heyo]

I gave up with @Trailblazer some time ago. She blithely switches positions depending on the position of the other person, without a shred of self-awareness, as well as admitting to holding mutually exclusive positions yet insisting both are valid.

It's called "doublethink" (by George Orwell) and is an art form. It is a challenge for a logician to reduce every statement to basic components and show the contradiction even to one who practices doublethink. I say: challenge accepted, @Trailblazer.

 

[KWED]

To put that another way, what are the thought processes of an immaterial being and how do they operate? Talk me through what actually happens when God is making a decision.

This is where apologists who have earlier been claiming certain knowledge of what god wants and does, suddenly throw their hands up and exclaim "but we can't hope to understand god!".

 

[Trailblazer]

Remember that I told you that there is no contradiction if time doesn't flow linear?

That is the case in your example. I choose to buy a red car - and god knew that I'd buy a red car.
My decision altered the past. The cause comes after the effect.

Sorry, you lost me but that's okay because I don't want to argue about this.
I have my position, you have yours, and we are both talking past each other.

 

[KWED]

I said nothing of the kind. This is what I said:

Hmm, let's see...

"If you don't accept an explanation of what I think God is,

ie. "If you don't agree with me".

then you have no business in discussing how free-will is not affected by His omniscience."

ie. You should not participate in this debate.

It is difficult to have reasoned debate with people who don't even understand what they themselves are saying, never mind what I am saying.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not so. Theologically, God is the FIRST CAUSE of EVERYTHING, and as I keep saying, given [his] gifts of omnipotence, omniscience and perfection, [he] knew before the start what would happen if [he] created the universe in this particular form, and [he] created it knowing and intending everything that followed.

No theological free will with an omni god. No truly free will in reality anyway.

I said before that we feel we own our actions and their consequences and we make and apply our laws on that basis.

I am firm in my beliefs and apparently you are firm on your opinions.
I am absolutely certain we have free will and I am absolutely certain God is omniscient and omnipotent so there is no point arguing about it.
We are never going to come to a meeting of the minds on this issue and it only creates bad feelings when we argue.

 

[Heyo]

Sorry, you lost me but that's okay because I don't want to argue about this.
I have my position, you have yours, and we are both talking past each other.

That's OK. It tells me that I was getting dangerously close to showing how your position is illogical. You know when to quit.

 

[blü 2]

This is where apologists who have earlier been claiming certain knowledge of what god wants and does, suddenly throw their hands up and exclaim "but we can't hope to understand god!".

Well, in that case they're no worse off than I am ...

 

[blü 2]

I am firm in my beliefs and apparently you are firm on your opinions.
I am absolutely certain we have free will and I am absolutely certain God is omniscient and omnipotent so there is no point arguing about it.
We are never going to come to a meeting of the minds on this issue and it only creates bad feelings when we argue.

Bad feelings? My apologies.

Okay, we'll leave it (but let me know when you change your mind).

 

[KWED]

That is the argument from semantics.

The what? "Semantics" is "the meaning of words". Therefore every argument is an argument from semantics.

If you are not saying that we are forced to choose a certain way then we have our free will while at the same time God knows what we are going to choose.

When you drop a ball, are you "forcing" it to fall, or is its motion inevitable?

Words can be meaningless, no matter how many thousands they are.

Wrong. Words always have meaning, but some people struggle with understanding it.

The argument as you have put it is no more than semantics as I have shown above,

Yes. I am not claiming that god forces you against your will. I am claiming that by fixing the future, every choice you make is also fixed, even though it fees like a free choice when you make it.
The difference between the two positions is due to the difference in meaning of the words used.

unless you are saying that God is forcing us to choose a certain way.

No I am not. I have never used those terms and have repeatedly stated that it is not what I mean, so why would you claim that I do?

We choose, it's that simple. That is recognised and even given a name, our will.

We appear to choose. Whether that choice is free or inevitable is the whole point of this thread!

To come up with a contrarian view should mean that you need to show it to be true or have evidence that is more than empty words that make it look like God is forcing us but which do not say that, so that is not true.

So, what evidence do you have that god does not force us to choose (without us realising he is doing it)?

When debating, it is always a good idea to check if your argument cannot also be used against your own position.

It is very easy to understand that God knows what we will freely choose and a mechanism can be proposed as to how that could happen.

OK. Explain how, if there is only one possible outcome to every event (the one god infallibly knows), we can choose a different outcome.

I can give evidence for us having a will.

What evidence is that?

I have just been talking about one argument for God's negating of free will.
However seeing myself choose reality staring me in the face (or visa versa ) and I don't need to read all the arguments for and against to believe we have a free will.

Hold on, didn't you just say that evidence is required. Now you are saying that "gut feeling" is sufficient?
Hmm...

 

[muhammad_isa]

You provide your explanation as fact that can't be disputed, I on the other hand am of the opinion that it can be disputed and require evidence before I would agree.

What are "we" referring to now?

I said: "You are confused due to misunderstanding how God knows what will happen. God cannot know that we are going to make such-and-such a choice if we are not even here to make it."

You said: "I would say I'm too logical to accept nonsense excuse for an absent super being."

..and this was because you suggested that there was no point in this life ---> "so why bother going through with it, he knows who so just shove them in paradise and don't bother us heathens."

It is illogical for an agent to be able to know the future choice of people who have no future.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You just keep asserting that because he is "outside spacetime", god fixing the future does not restrict our free will, without explaining the process by which this happens.

God is not fixing the future .. we fix the future with our choices.
God simply knows what those choices will be.
That is the "process".

 

[John53]

What are "we" referring to now?

I said: "You are confused due to misunderstanding how God knows what will happen. God cannot know that we are going to make such-and-such a choice if we are not even here to make it."

You said: "I would say I'm too logical to accept nonsense excuse for an absent super being."

..and this was because you suggested that there was no point in this life ---> "so why bother going through with it, he knows who so just shove them in paradise and don't bother us heathens."

It is illogical for an agent to be able to know the future choice of people who have no future.

It was a hypothetical conversation with TB to try and learn her point of view on life, the universe, everything.... think about it

 

[KWED]

God is not fixing the future .. we fix the future with our choices.
God simply knows what those choices will be.

Yes he is, by having infallible foreknowledge of those choices. It is his omniscience that fixes the future, not our choices, because we haven't made our choices until we make them, so they don't exist "in the future".

That is the "process".

No. You claimed that by being "outside this universe", his foreknowledge of our choices does not affect our free will. So how does that work?

 

[Nimos]

God is not fixing the future .. we fix the future with our choices.
God simply knows what those choices will be.
That is the "process".

I wrote this "challenge" to Trailblazer as well, so how do you see this playing out, if what you say is true.

You meet with God alone and ask him a question and he obviously knows the answer and will answer truthfully, so you ask him:

What color car will Nimos buy next?

What will God answer to that?

At the time you ask God this question, I might not even be aware of buying a car in lets say 5 years. Yet God would know this and would also know what color it is.

So when 5 years have passed, will I buy the color of car that God told you I would buy or not?

Based on what you say: "God simply knows what those choices are", but we fix the future with our choices, but given I personally haven't made the choice or might not even be aware of buying a car, when you asked him the question.

Then there are only two solutions to this as I see it.

1. Either God is not able to tell the future, not even 5 years ahead.
2. We have no free will, because I will buy the exact color of car that God told you I would, before I made the choice.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is not what I said. God has always known which one you would choose.

Trailblazer said: ↑
If you had chosen A, God would have known you were going to choose A.
If you had chosen B, God would have known you were going to choose B.
If you had chosen C, God would have known you were going to choose C.

Your mistake comes in that you are putting things backwards. God knows what we will do BEFORE we will do it, yet you put what we do first.

It's more accurate to say:

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).

What you are suggesting God is doing is no different to the following:

Person A: "If you choose any number between one and one trillion, I can guess which number you picked each and every time."
Person B: "Okay, I just thought of a number."
Person A: "What number did you pick?"
Person B: "I picked seventeen billion, nine hundred and twenty three million, four hundred and five thousand two hundred and eighty three."
Person A: "Oh yeah, I totally knew that was the number you were going to pick."
Person B: "Yeah, sure."