What causes people to choose what they choose?

[muhammad_isa]

..It is his omniscience that fixes the future, not our choices, because we haven't made our choices until we make them, so they don't exist "in the future".

If "omniscience" fixes the future, then it is not that God knows what choices we will make .. we have a God that MAKES all the choices.
That is purely your assertion. You are an atheist.
You don't believe in omniscience .. you don't believe in G-d who exists independent of the universe.

We will agree to differ.
Bye

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. Either God is not able to tell the future, not even 5 years ahead.
2. We have no free will, because I will buy the exact color of car that God told you I would, before I made the choice.

OK .. As far as you are concerned, an omniscient God cannot exist.

The fact that we are responsible for our actions is a given.
Any argument that "proves" we have no free-will is purely hypothetical.

I happen to believe that God can know what we will choose .. and you don't .. and that is all ..

 

[Nimos]

OK .. As far as you are concerned, an omniscient God cannot exist.

The fact that we are responsible for our actions is a given.
Any argument that "proves" we have no free-will is purely hypothetical.

I happen to believe that God can know what we will choose .. and you don't .. and that is all ..

Im not claiming anything.
But an argument has to make sense and be sound, which is why I question what you and Trailblazer claim to be the case here, because to me it doesn't make sense. You put forward a series of claims, which in itself is perfectly fine and you believing it to be so as well, is no issue either.

But clearly you must also be interested in whether or not, what you claim to be true, actually make sense or not, rather than just believing it because you have been told it is like that or have simply convinced yourself that it is true.

These things are very often misunderstood, like me having a go at what you believe, but that is not in itself relevant here, it is about logic.

An omniscient God could exist, but not if one want to maintain that we have true free will.

Things still need to fit logically in that regard. Otherwise it would be like saying that God is God, but also not God. Which is nonsense, because it is not a logical sound statement.

And to me this is what you are doing here, you want God to know the future, yet not affect it and you want all to have free will. But as I explained to Trailblazer as well in an earlier post.

God is irrelevant in this setup, its not really about God, but the mere fact that someone or something is claimed to know the future.

It could be fortune cookies for that matter instead of God and you would run into the same issues as you are with God.

I think my example shows why this is the case perfectly.

Because it doesn't seem in this scenario you have put forward, that you have taken into consideration what will happen, if someone ask God about what another person would do in the future, before they have actually made a choice about it. Yet, you claim that God would know this, which end up putting your claim, God or the fortune cookies in a poor position, because it is not a sound argument.

Because either God is wrong/lying or there can't be free will.

One of these has to be true. Either God is right or there is free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

An omniscient God could exist, but not if one want to maintain that we have true free will.

That is only your opinion .. not mine.

It is silly to suggest that God could exist, but then we are not free to choose. It is a hypothetical based on your evaluation of physical reality. It is purely a ploy to show that theists are irrational in their beliefs, imo.

God is irrelevant in this setup, its not really about God, but the mere fact that someone or something is claimed to know the future.

I couldn't agree more.
It is misbelief in a so-called paradox, that is designed to mislead one into believing "we have no choice", when in fact we do.
It is all about our perception of what determines the future..
I say that it is our choices that determine .. and an agent's ability to know or not know is irrelevant.

Intuitively, one might not think it is possible to know what a person might choose of their own free-will at some point in the future.
..but that is also irrelevant, when arguing about God and free-will.
..because that is what we believe.

 

[Nimos]

That is only your opinion .. not mine.

It is silly to suggest that God could exist, but then we are not free to choose. It is a hypothetical based on your evaluation of physical reality. It is purely a ploy to show that theists are irrational in their beliefs, imo.

Im sorry, but it is not a plot or me trying to catch you out or have a go at God or anything.

In fact we can completely leave God out of it and it doesn't make any difference. Lets use the fortune cookies as an example.

Lets say that we have some magical fortune cookies, that when you open them you can ask a question about the future and they would always be true. That is the premise we agree on and is simply a fact in this scenario.

So you decide to open one and ask it a question, lets say "How will I die?"

And the fortune cookie say "You will die from old age."

If we want to maintain the premise, then that is how you will die. Because if you don't clearly the cookies doesn't know the future and that would break the premise we agreed on.

How could you avoid breaking the premise, if you for instance could simply jump from a bridge and kill yourself?

One or the other has to give in this setup, either we have to agree that the cookies doesn't know the future and you have free will, or you simply can't die any other way than what they cookie told you.

You can't trick the cookies, because they obviously would know, since they know the future, so it doesn't matter, if you change your mind in the last second or whatever you might do to "trick" your way out of the premise. All these things would be including in whatever answer the cookie told you, otherwise they would be wrong.

Some theists claims like these are irrational, because it is easy to demonstrate why this couldn't work. I didn't trick you into this or try to shake your beliefs. These are the claims that you made based on what you believe in, I simply question the logic or rationality behind your claim, im not suggesting another solution, because I didn't make the claim in the first place. But to deny that it is an issue with the claim that is simply not answered and as an excuse you blame me for plotting against you, is a bit out there in my opinion.

I could understand you, if I somehow had tricked you into a corner putting forward claims that you then had agreed on, and then finally "reveal" my hidden agenda to have a go at you or God. But it is not, because again as I have just demonstrated with the cookies we could have had this discussion without ever mentioning God or religion at all and the issue would be exactly the same.

It is misbelief in a so-called paradox, that is designed to mislead one into believing "we have no choice", when in fact we do.

Again, we agree on a set of rules or a premise, which can't be changed under any circumstances.

The square is and will always be black this is true no matter what.

Then we can't say that the square could be any other color, if we want to maintain the statement to be true under all circumstances, the square will always be black. And yes we have no choice in this matter unless we throw out the premise. We simply can get it both ways.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Again, we agree on a set of rules or a premise, which can't be changed under any circumstances.

The square is and will always be black this is true no matter what.

Then we can't say that the square could be any other color, if we want to maintain the statement to be true under all circumstances, the square will always be black. And yes we have no choice in this matter unless we throw out the premise. We simply can get it both ways.

I know what you are trying to say, but it is irrelevant.
You say "we have no choice in the matter" .. but we do.

It is just that our choice will be the one which is known .. by definition, as we have said that "the known future" is that which is determined by our choices of our own free-will .. and not the other way round
i.e. NOT our choices will be determined by the known future

 

[Brian2]

The what? "Semantics" is "the meaning of words". Therefore every argument is an argument from semantics.

When you drop a ball, are you "forcing" it to fall, or is its motion inevitable?

Wrong. Words always have meaning, but some people struggle with understanding it.

Yes. I am not claiming that god forces you against your will. I am claiming that by fixing the future, every choice you make is also fixed, even though it fees like a free choice when you make it.
The difference between the two positions is due to the difference in meaning of the words used.

No I am not. I have never used those terms and have repeatedly stated that it is not what I mean, so why would you claim that I do?

We appear to choose. Whether that choice is free or inevitable is the whole point of this thread!

So, what evidence do you have that god does not force us to choose (without us realising he is doing it)?

When debating, it is always a good idea to check if your argument cannot also be used against your own position.

OK. Explain how, if there is only one possible outcome to every event (the one god infallibly knows), we can choose a different outcome.

What evidence is that?

Hold on, didn't you just say that evidence is required. Now you are saying that "gut feeling" is sufficient?
Hmm...

In one sentence you say we choose and in another you say we appear to choose. Make up your mind.
One sentence you say God is not forcing us and in another you are implying that God is forcing us.
If we do choose, we choose, WE choose, not God.
If we do not choose then it is chosen for us, we are forced.
I don't need evidence to show that God does not force us to choose, you are the one who is stating something that goes against plain observation, that WE choose.
Your argument that we cannot choose a different outcome to the one God already knows does not say or even imply that we are not choosing the outcome.

The thing about God's omniscience and our choosing is that God knows what we will choose.
Both those things are true. God knows and we choose.
That is not impossible but you imply it is impossible and that implication is based on the meaning of words only. You say that because we cannot choose a different outcome than what God knows we will choose, that means we have not freely chosen what God knows we will choose.
If you don't want God to have forced us then we are the ones who have chosen.
If God does force us than it has nothing to do with God knowing what we will choose, because we don't choose.
The thing about the future is that it will be what it will be and we cannot alter what it will be.
If I used your argument that means that free will is impossible ever, for anyone because we cannot alter the future.
Silly arguments are not enough.
The one who needs to show the evidence is the one who proposes something completely at odds with the reality that we observe.

 

[Brian2]

Not so. Theologically, God is the FIRST CAUSE of EVERYTHING, and as I keep saying, given [his] gifts of omnipotence, omniscience and perfection, [he] knew before the start what would happen if [he] created the universe in this particular form, and [he] created it knowing and intending everything that followed.

Knowing everything that would follow does not mean or even imply that God intended everything that followed.
Knowing the long term future however and what that will be means that God was willing to be patient and do what was necessary to get to that point even if it meant that things would happen that God does not want to happen.
It's a long term thing to bring good outcome even when everyone is going doing what God does not want.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You say that because we cannot choose a different outcome than what God knows we will choose, that means we have not freely chosen what God knows we will choose

Exactly .. and it doesn't mean that at all.

If God does force us than it has nothing to do with God knowing what we will choose, because we don't choose..

..and here is where people then suggest that God is not forcing us, but our choosing is only an illusion.
..which of course, it isn't. We are able to choose what we want to choose .. and that is the one option that God knows we will choose.

 

[Nakosis]

I've heard about that. My query is, are these moral choices, or just choices like, for instance, what color we prefer?

IMO, just choices. Our brain adds feelings of right and wrong as a kind of feedback system.
Some of it genetic, some of it cultural programming.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's OK. It tells me that I was getting dangerously close to showing how your position is illogical. You know when to quit.

I wish people would stop trying to read my mind.
No, that is not what it means at all. I just get tired of arguing as it serves no purpose and it causes disharmony.

Everyone thinks their position is logical. That's just ego and I want no part of such a discussion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bad feelings? My apologies.

Okay, we'll leave it (but let me know when you change your mind).

No, it is not your fault. It takes two to tango, as my husband always says.

I am not ever going to change my mind on God's omniscience and omnipotence, and that humans have free will, so there is no point arguing about it, unless someone is open to changing their position and wants to understand my position.

 

[Nimos]

It is just that our choice will be the one which is known .. by definition, as we have said that "the known future" is that which is determined by our choices of our own free-will .. and not the other way round
i.e. NOT our choices will be determined by the known future

Fair enough lets go with that then and correct me if I misunderstand you and you explain to me how it will work.

So we have three people A, B and C. In this case C is special because he knows the future:

Person A makes a choice that he want to murder Person B and does so. In your opinion, could C have warned B about the murder before it happens?

And if he could, how would that be possible given that he would have to do it, before A made the choice?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't make sense.

Its like you buying a red car and then asking me if I knew you would do that. And then when I answer yes you are all impressed by it. But the fact is that you could have added any color and you would have been impressed no matter what.

It is turning things up side down so to speak. God doesn't have foreknowledge in that case, but hindsight and not only that, he has perfect hindsight, because he is being told the correct answer.

No, it is not like that. It is like me buying a red car, and GOD HAVING ALWAYS KNOWN that I was going to buy that red car because God has perfect foreknowledge of everything I will ever do. What is so difficult to understand about that?

hindsight: understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=hindsight+means

God does not have hindsight, only humans have hindsight. I think you are turning God into a human.

God is all-knowing so God does not have to understand of a situation or event only after it has happened, since God has always known everything that will ever happen and when it will happen. Nobody needs to tell God the right answer because God already knows everything! Do you understand what omniscience means?

omniscience: the state of knowing everything.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=OMNISCIENCE+MEANS

All this is God having hindsight based on the choice you made.

You choose a color -> God is told what color it is = God have amazing knowledge.

or you could rewrite it:

You choose any color -> God knows you will choose a color = God have amazing knowledge

None of this is impressive, because any ordinary human can do this as well.

No, God does not have hindsight because the perfect knowledge of God surrounds the realities of ALL THINGS, before during and after they have actually transpire in this world.

Im sorry, but it is simply impossible.

In the scenario you set up, there is no way that God could have known it at creation. It is not a logical sound argument.

God knew EVERYTHING at creation.

Imagine you are alone with God (so im not there!!) and can ask him a question and he will answer it truthfully, because God can't lie and of all the things in the world you could ask him, you ask him the following:

What color car is Nimos going to buy in 5 years?

What would God answer to that question?

God does not talk to human beings and answer their questions, so that scenario is impossible. AGAIN, you are turning God into a human being.
But I will play along with your scenario.

God would answer with the color of car THAT GOD KNOWS you are going to buy.
God has perfect foreknowledge so God knows what color car you are going to buy and when you will buy it.

Now go forward 5 years and I decide to buy a car... is that car the color God told you? If it is not, did God lie to you?
Remember according to you, I have free will and it have been 5 years since you spoke to God and at that time, I might not even have considered buying a car, let alone thought of what color it should be.

God does not tell anybody what He knows, so that scenario is impossible. AGAIN, you are turning God into a human being.
But I will play along with your scenario.

If in 5 years you decide to buy a car that car will be the color THAT GOD HAS ALWAYS KNOWN you would buy, because God is all-knowing and has perfect foreknowledge!

What is so difficult to understand?
I think you will only be able to understand when you realize that God is not a human being, so God does not KNOW THINGS the way humans know them. God KNOWS EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME (as we experience time in this world). God does not exist in time like we do, but that is another subject.

 

[Heyo]

Everyone thinks their position is logical. That's just ego and I want no part of such a discussion.

I'm not the biggest fan of Aristotelian logic but it has the benefit that a position is either right or wrong and there is a method to find that truth. I love the truth and I love finding it through logic. I'm usually right when it comes to logic but that isn't important. Doing the thinking and finding ways to explain it is the fun of it.
You have always appeared to me as someone who also loves logic (even though you aren't very good at it) and I thought your love of logic and truth might win out on your love on religious dogma.
I was wrong in that assessment - for now. I have a feeling we will have that debate again.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How can we ever know that we could not have made a different choice?

We can't. That's the dilemma with free choice. We cannot decide if there really were two outcomes possible for a given situation. There is no discriminating test if the universe would look exactly the same either way whatever test we chose to answer that.

But if nobody can distinguish between the two, nobody can claim that the will is free or that it is not.

We do have an experiment that seems to suggest that the self only becomes aware of the intent of the subconscious after it is determined by whatever neurological process does that:

Spoiler: The LIbet Experiment video

why can't we have free choice and perfect foreknowledge?

An act of free will is uncaused. If we say that the will had a prior cause, it was not free.

With bona fide (uncaused) free will, even the one making the choice cannot be certain what it will be until he makes it. He may know from experience how he has always chosen in the past and predict that he always will in the future as well, but that doesn't guarantee that he will not suddenly have an insight or be subjected to a threat or barrier that results in an unexpected choice being made.

Foreknowledge means knowing what the choice will be before the chooser chooses.

The two ideas are mutually exclusive. Either the apparent choice is an actual choice that was made just prior to acting and couldn't be known because the decision hadn't been made any earlier than that, or if it is predictable, it is only the illusion of choice.

Consider the recording of a sporting event, one we have seen and know with certainty what choices will be made at each stage of the game. We can argue when watching a replay that we have perfect knowledge of choices that were freely made at the time they occurred, but this is not foreknowledge. It was not known in advance of the acts themselves.

So foreknowledge is incompatible with free will. How does this relate to an omniscient deity and a world with free will? It simply doesn't make sense to say that a deity that is said to exist outside of time knows anything before it happens, since the word before implies being in time. So does knowing after the fact, but we would not call that foreknowledge anyway. Close inspection of these ideas shows them to be incoherent.

 

[Nimos]

No, it is not like that. It is like me buying a red car, and GOD HAVING ALWAYS KNOWN that I was going to buy that red car because God has perfect foreknowledge of everything I will ever do. What is so difficult to understand about that?

Because it is not making sense.

You want everything to work out, when it is impossible. I really don't know how to explain it anymore clearly than I have already done.

God does not talk to human beings and answer their questions, so that scenario is impossible. AGAIN, you are turning God into a human being.
But I will play along with your scenario.

I think that is a good idea, because otherwise you would simply be dodging the question and that is an absolutely no go

God would answer with the color of car THAT GOD KNOWS you are going to buy.
God has perfect foreknowledge so God knows what color car you are going to buy and when you will buy it.

So 5 years later when I buy the car, I don't have a choice besides buying the color of car, that God told you I would buy 5 years earlier when you asked him, before I even knew I were going to buy a car!!!

What is so difficult to understand?
I think you will only be able to understand when you realize that God is not a human being, so God does not KNOW THINGS the way humans know them. God KNOWS EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME (as we experience time in this world). God does not exist in time like we do, but that is another subject.

I get the impression from varies replies to me here, that people think im out to trick them or something and therefore people are on guard. Which is fine, but as I said lots of times now, this has nothing to do with God. Its about the claim that ANYTHING or ANYONE knows the future and what that would mean. God is simply the one you have thrown on the stage so to speak

If anything or anyone know the future, there is only one correct answer, to a question like the one I asked you. The car I would buy have the exact color that whatever knows the future say it will be and there are no other answer in this scenario. Its not something I decide, it is simply logical that it can be the only solution.

God or whatever that knows the future, would NEVER tell you the wrong color, and therefore I will not have free will when I buy a car, it will be one color and one color only, which is the one God said it would be and it can not change, no matter what, because if it could, THAT would be the answer God would give, when you asked him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not the biggest fan of Aristotelian logic but it has the benefit that a position is either right or wrong and there is a method to find that truth. I love the truth and I love finding it through logic.

I also like logic but God is not subject to logic, so we cannot figure out what God does or what God is going to do using logic.

Everything in this physical world is subject to the rules of logic but the rules of logic do not apply to God. God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. Such an entity can never be subject to human logic and it would be illogical to think so. It is absurd to expect to be able to encapsulate an infinite God with the finite human mind.

The only way humans can ever know anything about God is through the revelations of God that come to man through Messengers of God, which are recorded in scriptures of religions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..how would that be possible given that he would have to do it, before A made the choice?

I don't know how person C is able to know the future.
Maybe he found out from an alien on another planet, who has developed time travel.

 

[Nimos]

I don't know how person C is able to know the future.
Maybe he found out from an alien on another planet, who has developed time travel.

Lets assume that is how he knows. Its not really relevant for the question.

So do you have an answer to it or not?

Not meant as me trying to have a go at you, because if you truly think that you are correct, somehow this scenario should be solvable to you and I honestly would like to know that. As I think that is interesting.