What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Sheldon]

I cannot for the life of me locate God with my GPS tracker.

Though that would of course be true for all non-existent things.

 

[Sheldon]

God is not a physical person..

This of course is true of all non-existent things.

He doesn't "live" anywhere, as in an actual geographical place.

Again, this would be true of all non-existent things. Do you think there is a reasonable logical inference from your and @Trailblazer's claims?

 

[Trailblazer]

Except according to @muhammad_isa we can't choose, as the future is "set in stone" by a deity. What's more you have posted more than once that you agree with him, and not with those raising rational objections to that claim, alongside his claim we also are free to choose whatever we want.

Either the future is already set in stone, or we can change it, bit these are mutually exclusive positions.

An event only becomes set in stone once it has occurred. If I chose to murder my husband and then I murdered my husband, that event is now set in stone, as I cannot change the fact that the murder has occurred.

BEFORE I murdered my husband (Choice A), I could have chosen to go for marriage counseling (Choice B), or I could have chosen to talk to a friend (Choice C).

 

[Trailblazer]

muhammad_isa said: ↑God is not a physical person.

Sheldon said: This of course is true of all non-existent things.

That implies that all existent things are physical people.
Just because God is not a physical person that does not mean God is non-existent.
That is a non-sequitur.

 

[blü 2]

Knowing everything that would follow does not mean or even imply that God intended everything that followed.

As long as the claim that God is omniscient then it not only follows, it's inevitable. God could have made the universe any way [he] liked, but [he] omnipotently, omnisciently and perfectly made it THIS way, knowing perfectly in advance everything that would ever happen as a result, including the typo I just corrected in typing this. [His] act in creating the universe was deliberately causative of everything that's ever happened and everything that will ever happen. When you're omnipotent and omniscient ALL the bucks stop at your desk.

 

[ppp]

Knowing everything that would follow does not mean or even imply that God intended everything that followed.

It does. Plus omnipotence puts the nail in the freewill coffin.

 

[Nimos]

You mean "warn" as in stop it happening?

Yes exactly

The answer must be no .. if C knows that A will make the choice to murder B, then that is what will happen.

That answer surprises me.

Why wouldn't C be able to make B aware of it, if he knows about it?

 

[Heyo]

Our choices cannot both be fixed, and changeable. This is a logical contradiction.

Yep. read my latest interactions with @Trailblazer. She admits that she isn't using logic to come to her opinions.
Maybe @muhammad_isa also dismisses logic (or linear time)?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Except according to @muhammad_isa we can't choose, as the future is "set in stone" by a deity..

Please stop your misquotes. I did not say that the future is fixed by a deity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That answer surprises me.

Why wouldn't C be able to make B aware of it, if he knows about it?

Of course C could make B "aware of it".
..but that won't change anything.
C would also have known that he would have made B aware of it.

I think that you will just tie yourself in knots with all these hypotheticals.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you're omnipotent and omniscient ALL the bucks stop at your desk.

That's a great way for humans to pass the buck to God for what God is in no way responsible for.

 

[Trailblazer]

So this deity created a universe, then waited billions of years, and then gave us free will just 200k years ago, roughly when the first humans evolved? Sounds pretty dubious even before we address the fact, that this is a completely unevidenced claim you're making.

Yes, that is what happened according to my beliefs. Of course such a belief cannot ever be proven.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not what @muhammad_isa claimed. If you're going to address my posts please address what I have said, not some straw man.

I was addressing what you said in your post:

Sheldon said: ↑ As muhammed isa said, "the future is set in stone", thus negating any notion of free will.

Trailblazer said: ↑ The future is set in stone only after we make a choice and that choice becomes an event.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: ↑ I cannot for the life of me locate God with my GPS tracker.

Sheldon said: Though that would of course be true for all non-existent things.

But that does not mean that God is a nonexistent thing.
That is a non sequitur.

 

[John53]

That's a great way for humans to pass the buck to God for what God is in no way responsible for.

Here's a question... if a volcano erupts and causes a tsunami that kills 200,000 and causes misery to millions of others who do we pass the buck to? If a god created the earth surely that's where the blame falls. I don't think volcanoes have free will.

 

[Nimos]

Of course C could make B "aware of it".
..but that won't change anything.

So what in this setup makes this true? If C could make B aware, why wouldn't that change anything?

 

[Trailblazer]

An act of free will is uncaused. If we say that the will had a prior cause, it was not free.

Everything we do has a prior cause but that does not mean it was not freely chosen.

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes. How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not choose anything.

With bona fide (uncaused) free will, even the one making the choice cannot be certain what it will be until he makes it. He may know from experience how he has always chosen in the past and predict that he always will in the future as well, but that doesn't guarantee that he will not suddenly have an insight or be subjected to a threat or barrier that results in an unexpected choice being made.

That's true. The choice is not actually made until it is made. Before that it is just a thought.

Foreknowledge means knowing what the choice will be before the chooser chooses.

The two ideas are mutually exclusive. Either the apparent choice is an actual choice that was made just prior to acting and couldn't be known because the decision hadn't been made any earlier than that, or if it is predictable, it is only the illusion of choice.

I agree. Nobody can have foreknowledge or what they will choose because it is not chosen until it is chosen. What we are 'going to choose' is not known in advance of the act itself.

So foreknowledge is incompatible with free will. How does this relate to an omniscient deity and a world with free will? It simply doesn't make sense to say that a deity that is said to exist outside of time knows anything before it happens, since the word before implies being in time. So does knowing after the fact, but we would not call that foreknowledge anyway. Close inspection of these ideas shows them to be incoherent.

I agree that human foreknowledge is incompatible with human free will. However, God's foreknowledge is compatible with human free will. The reason they are compatible is because the deity is not subject to knowing anything in time as we measure it by the sun; since there is no time where the deity exists the deity is not subject to time as we know it. The deity has always known everything that will ever happen on this material plane of existence, but we humans cannot know what the deity knows until it actually happens.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So what in this setup makes this true? If C could make B aware, why wouldn't that change anything?

Get to the point..
Why have you made up this story?

 

[Nimos]

Get to the point..
Why have you made up this story?

Im simply trying to understand your position.

Because clearly we look at this differently. The way I look at it, is like this.

If C could make B aware of it, then B could react to these information and potentially prevent A from murdering them. Which would mean that neither A or B's choice is what matters. Only the choice of C matters, because he is the one that knows the future and have the capability to change it. C would know whether or not telling B about the murder would prevent it or not. So again we end up with the future either being fixed, because C doesn't warn B and therefore things simply plays out as C know they will or C would being the only one that could change the future for A and B, but in fact it gets worse

Because it would eventually mean that C's future is fixed as well. Because as you said yourself, they would also know their own future. So as I see it, regardless of how one twist and turn it, if anyone knows the future to perfection, there can't be free will for anyone, not even God or C in this case.

 

[blü 2]

Please stop your misquotes. I did not say that the future is fixed by a deity.

Is it your view that the relevant deity is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect?

If so, then such a deity perfectly knew and intended everything that would ever happen if [he] created the universe as it is, and [his] act of creation was causative, hence [he] and only [he] is responsible for everything that has happened and will happen.

Of course, if God is not omnipotent, omniscient &/or perfect, then that's not a problem.