• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What causes people to choose what they choose?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because it is not making sense. :)

You want everything to work out, when it is impossible. I really don't know how to explain it anymore clearly than I have already done. :D
Why is it impossible for God to have perfect foreknowledge of everything we will ever do?
So 5 years later when I buy the car, I don't have a choice besides buying the color of car, that God told you I would buy 5 years earlier when you asked him, before I even knew I were going to buy a car!!!
So 5 years later when you buy the car you don't have a choice besides buying the color of car that God told me you would buy 5 years earlier when I asked him.

The fly in the ointment for your little scenario is that I cannot ask God anything and get an answer. As such, there is no way I can know what God knows regarding what color of car you will buy. Do you understand the problem?
If anything or anyone know the future, there is only one correct answer, to a question like the one I asked you. The car I would buy have the exact color that whatever knows the future say it will be and there are no other answer in this scenario. Its not something I decide, it is simply logical that it can be the only solution.
That is correct, the car you would buy will be the exact color that whatever knows the future says it will be and there is no other answer in this scenario.

But AGAIN, the fly in the ointment is that nobody can never know what God knows regarding what color car that will be so nobody can ever know what color car you will buy (according to what God knows).

A poster on this forum has said: "God knows on Monday that I will wear a red shirt on Friday, so I have no choice but to wear a red shirt on Friday." The problem with that is that nobody can ever know what God knows on Monday or on any other day! This is where this argument falls flat on its face and smashes to smithereens. :D
God or whatever that knows the future, would NEVER tell you the wrong color, and therefore I will not have free will when I buy a car, it will be one color and one color only, which is the one God said it would be and it can not change, no matter what, because if it could, THAT would be the answer God would give, when you asked him.
God who knows the future, would NEVER tell you anything about any color because God never communicates to any humans (except Messengers) and therefore you will have free will to choose whatever color car you want when you buy a car. It will be one color and one color only, which is the one God knew it would be and it cannot change.

C'mon Nimos, I know you are smart enough to figure this out, I am not smarter than you. :p
I am just as stubborn as you but I am not smarter.:D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is it your view that the relevant deity is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect?

If so, then such a deity perfectly knew and intended everything that would ever happen if [he] created the universe as it is, and [his] act of creation was causative, hence [he] and only [he] is responsible for everything that has happened and will happen.
That is a non sequitur of astronomical proportions because there is a disconnect between the premises and the conclusion!
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
The fly in the ointment for your little scenario is that I cannot ask God anything and get an answer. As such, there is no way I can know what God knows regarding what color of car you will buy. Do you understand the problem?
But it doesn't really matter whether you could ask God about it or not. The only thing this adds is transparency to benefit our example, you having this knowledge doesn't change anything. Its like you knowing that is going to be sunny tomorrow, you are not going to change the weather to rain because you know that, it will be sunny no matter what, because it is outside your control.

God knowing what the color is, is what matters. And that is why me and others keep saying that it is an illusion of choice. I believe I can choose the color of the car and I do this by a well thought out process of what I like and don't like etc. But the fact is, I am going to choose the color God knows I will choose, the process of me thinking im making a choice is an illusion, because I only actually have one color to "choose" from, which again is the one God knows I will choose.

C'mon Nimos, I know you are smart enough to figure this out, I am not smarter than you. :p
I am just as stubborn as you but I am not smarter.:D
That is nice of you to say :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Here's a question... if a volcano erupts and causes a tsunami that kills 200,000 and causes misery to millions of others who do we pass the buck to? If a god created the earth surely that's where the blame falls. I don't think volcanoes have free will.
Why does everything have to be somebody's fault. Sometimes **** just happens.
God created the earth so the potential was there for these kinds of natural disasters to happen, but you can apply that to anything and blame God for everything that happens because God created the earth. This is patently illogical because most things that happen on earth are caused by human choices and actions..
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But it doesn't really matter whether you could ask God about it or not. The only thing this adds is transparency to benefit our example, you having this knowledge doesn't change anything. Its like you knowing that is going to be sunny tomorrow, you are not going to change the weather to rain because you know that, it will be sunny no matter what, because it is outside your control.

God knowing what the color is, is what matters. And that is why me and others keep saying that it is an illusion of choice. I believe I can choose the color of the car and I do this by a well thought out process of what I like and don't like etc. But the fact is, I am going to choose the color God knows I will choose, the process of me thinking im making a choice is an illusion, because I only actually have one color to "choose" from, which again is the one God knows I will choose.
I am going to say this one more time and hopefully only one more time. :(

God knowing what the color is does not affect you in any way because you can never know what God knows.

You can choose the color of the car and you do this by a well thought out process of what you like and don't like etc.
You are going to choose the color God knows you will choose, NOT because God knows what color you are going to choose but because you chose it. What God knows in NO WAY affects your ability to choose.

If you chose a red car God would have always known you would choose a red car.
If you chose a blue car God would have always known you would choose a blue car.
If you chose a green car God would have always known you would choose a green car.
If you chose a purple car God would have always known you would choose a purple car.

Whatever color of car you choose will be the color car that God has always known you would choose because what God knows is IDENTICAL with what you will choose.

You can make more than one choice, but whatever choice you make will be the ONE CHOICE that God has always known you would make.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Why does everything have to be somebody's fault. Sometimes **** just happens.
God created the earth so the potential was there for these kinds of natural disasters to happen, but you can apply that to anything and blame God for everything that happens because God created the earth. This is patently illogical because most things that happen on earth are caused by human choices and actions..

Ok, so no answer other than it's definitely not God.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Our choices cannot both be fixed, and changeable. This is a logical contradiction. You are claiming both positions.



No, and you know this is a lie, as it has been explained innumerable times to you. Belief in a deity is utterly irrelevant, since you are making two claims that are a logical contradiction of each other, they are mutually exclusive. We cannot both be free to choose, and our choice be set in stone. The existence of a deity or not, does not change that.

Both are true but it is relative. We are free to choose. That is our pov.
God knows what we will choose. That is God's pov.
Both these pov not only appear to be true but both are true.
God knows what we will freely choose.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
As long as the claim that God is omniscient then it not only follows, it's inevitable. God could have made the universe any way [he] liked, but [he] omnipotently, omnisciently and perfectly made it THIS way, knowing perfectly in advance everything that would ever happen as a result, including the typo I just corrected in typing this. [His] act in creating the universe was deliberately causative of everything that's ever happened and everything that will ever happen. When you're omnipotent and omniscient ALL the bucks stop at your desk.

Yes God created a universe in which things would happen that He does not like.
That seems to have been the choice God had to make when He made beings with free will and who are able to disregard what God wants.
In that sense you can blame God.
But you cannot blame God for each choice that we have made, that would be grossly unfair on everyone involved.
Nobody would be accountable for anything they did and nobody would get any glory for anything they did.
We are in a similar position when we have children and know that those children will end up doing evil things. It is not our fault that they do evil things it is only our fault for allowing them to exist and loving them.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It does. Plus omnipotence puts the nail in the freewill coffin.

God knowing everything that would follow only means that God made a universe in which He knew things would happen that He did not want to happen. It does not mean that He intended it all to happen.
Your pov is based on the idea that we have no free will and so cannot help what we do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,iows it is God who is doing everything.
This might be the case in Hinduism but not in Abrahamic religions.
It is true however that God saw all the evil that would happen and realised that the end result was worth it.
It is interesting that in Christianity God not only suffers when He sees all the evils that humans do but that He suffered in death on the cross for all the evil that humans have done.
If you don't accept that suffering by God and the subsequent forgiveness then you will be judged for everything you have done in life.

I have heard how omniscience puts the nail in the freewill coffin but how does it work with omnipotence?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes God created a universe in which things would happen that He does not like.
No. God being omnipotent omniscient and perfect intended everything that happens to happen. With [his] powers [he] excluded everything [he] didn't intend.
That seems to have been the choice God had to make when He made beings with free will and who are able to disregard what God wants.
There cannot be theological free will IF God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect. There can only be exactly what God perfectly foresaw and intended before [he] made the universe.

If God is not omnipotent omniscient perfect then no such problem arises ─ God is stuck in time just as we are and thus as much in the dark as everyone else about what happens next.

(However, in reality we each make decisions based on the decision-making mechanisms of our evolved brain, affected by our knowledge, experience, health, age, disposition, needs, obligations ─ and so on. In each case these decisions are made as the result of long interacting chains of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect. They don't allow for pure free will either.

It's the case, though, that people nonetheless feel as though they own their decisions, and our societies and legal systems work on that principle accordingly.)
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@muhammad_isa stated unequivocally that the FUTURE is set in stone, ipso facto it cannot be changed.
I am not sure what he meant by that, I will leave it to him to explain what he meant...

I do not believe that the future is set in stone. I believe that God knows everything that will happen in the future, but it has not happened in this world until it actually happens.
As I said, an event only becomes set in stone once it has occurred.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
O earth created held in space.

No consciousness ours ....the planet not predictable.

O God humans taught was evil owns an evil history still causes evil...to natural life living on it.

Said as humans the same about the heavenly body.

The unpredictable....earth is a moving cosmic target.

Humans one hundred per cent pre informed about earth as just a human.

Then science who applied predicted held constant mass conversions claim science is predictable yet it changes masses pressure held in space.

Two statuses unpredictability.

So if a human who invented all human terms as science claim I use predictive. It relates only ever to human science first.

Number one. I have not yet changed any new mass of earth as earths held future until I convert it.

Earths future instantly removed.

Human controlled it.

Condition by a human built owned operated human machine control.

Only position of human thought in science is human practicing science.

Human observes planet earth...natural you didn't invent it. Nor do you own control why it exists why an atmosphere exists or why a moon sits close to earth.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. God being omnipotent omniscient and perfect intended everything that happens to happen. With [his] powers [he] excluded everything [he] didn't intend.
There cannot be theological free will IF God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect. There can only be exactly what God perfectly foresaw and intended before [he] made the universe.

Yes God foresaw what would happen, including the evil and how to fix that and the overwhelming good in the long term and decided it was worth it to create a universe and beings who were moral beings and could decide to do things that He did not want them to do.
There can only be what God foresaw but you do not know what He intended because you have not seen the whole story.
You have heard the whole story and dismiss it so you are making up your own mind about what God intended.
God could have created a universe where no evil was possible, true, but this one that He did make is the one where humans can exist and it might even be the best version of a universe where humans exist.

If God is not omnipotent omniscient perfect then no such problem arises ─ God is stuck in time just as we are and thus as much in the dark as everyone else about what happens next.

There is no problem.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Yes God foresaw what would happen, including the evil and how to fix that and the overwhelming good in the long term and decided it was worth it to create a universe and beings who were moral beings and could decide to do things that He did not want them to do.
There can only be what God foresaw but you do not know what He intended because you have not seen the whole story.
You have heard the whole story and dismiss it so you are making up your own mind about what God intended.
God could have created a universe where no evil was possible, true, but this one that He did make is the one where humans can exist and it might even be the best version of a universe where humans exist.



There is no problem.
So do you talk as a human on behalf of god?

You must wish you could control God in science and do no evil yourself... yet no evil in science meant no heated applied chosen by a human an earth conversion.

As God O earth is cold fused yet inside it's tumultuous body it's heating.

When hu man's own I want first you follow your want with a huge lie.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Here's a question... if a volcano erupts and causes a tsunami that kills 200,000 and causes misery to millions of others who do we pass the buck to? If a god created the earth surely that's where the blame falls. I don't think volcanoes have free will.
So, God creates the Earth. He makes it in such a way the volcanos and earthquakes and tsunamis are going to happen. And that's not his doing? That's not how he designed it?

Plus, supposedly, he can see ahead and he knows exactly what will happen. He knows when the eruption, earthquake and tsunami will happen and thinks, "Oh well, I guess they picked a bad time to vacation in Sri Lanka." Or, "They picked the wrong day to take a hike up Mt. St. Helens. Too bad they didn't know what I know. If I were them, I would have gone the week before."
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
No. God being omnipotent omniscient and perfect intended everything that happens to happen. With [his] powers [he] excluded everything [he] didn't intend.
There cannot be theological free will IF God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect. There can only be exactly what God perfectly foresaw and intended before [he] made the universe.

If God is not omnipotent omniscient perfect then no such problem arises ─ God is stuck in time just as we are and thus as much in the dark as everyone else about what happens next.

(However, in reality we each make decisions based on the decision-making mechanisms of our evolved brain, affected by our knowledge, experience, health, age, disposition, needs, obligations ─ and so on. In each case these decisions are made as the result of long interacting chains of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect. They don't allow for pure free will either.

It's the case, though, that people nonetheless feel as though they own their decisions, and our societies and legal systems work on that principle accordingly.)
Scientist human want to invent electricity not from mass. Is what he says.

Yet they have to thesis earth planet mass as their machine came from it.

Instead they say a humans bio body is electric.

The word electric is science imposed only and is not a natural human's word.

A human is first observed as the human.

If my biology mainly water owns human only bio chemistry it does.

If the chemistry is bio chemical reactive and pulses changes it does.

Electricity is one word only. The meaning human word is used means electricity is precisely known direct as only electricity.

If you say current a humans bio chemistry doesn't own it at all.

Sciences abuse to force the comparison onto biology by choosing as I want electricity. I'm trying to think how I could invent it. I claim biology will allow it.

So pretends as a theist out of earths atmosphere is alien. I put a human by alien theme thought human only thesis inside amassed cooled nuclear metal mass. An atmospheric nuclear Cause that leaves.

As if he said and believed the bio life theme from earth based chemicals to electricity he believes I would knowingly burn out biologies existence. So changes his theme to just the atmosphere.

So he is in fact coercing his own thesis himself.

As he knows his machine is earth based direct first. He already told his theist self he is lying about biology direct from earth chemicals. So they changed their thesis. Yet is still inferring to both.

A human man equals electricity is a super fried human by sciences used terms.

If a human said I must reduce earths energy mass to get electricity he is doing it twice already direct from earths mass.

So how does O mass reduce as the human science state one only energy God of man's science? Planet body to change into electricity by man's invention?

No science exists in reality.

Earth first.
Heavens does.
Humans do.

No machines.

Lightning exists in heavens as Gods placement earth body plus heavens body equals lightning only.

Humans said God is planet earth God owned heavens.

Youre only just humans.

A humans scientist memory I destroyed all life on origin earth lightning strikes constant thundering rendering floods earthquakes tornados hurricanes volcanic eruption comets meteors asteroids

Then dinosaurs lived

Dinosaurs ended by the same type earth God calamity.

Do you predict brother it would end as electricity? As a cosmic theist claiming what all his living studies of cosmic first by his I want to.....when it never did?

Human belief is the same human believing first as any human believing.

If a human reduces our atmosphere does lightning become electricity?

Theist I pretend I'm the planet mass. I then pretend I am the chemistry. I only chemical convert. The whole atmosphere however exists.

Is a human theist lying.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your mistake comes in that you are putting things backwards. God knows what we will do BEFORE we will do it, yet you put what we do first.
Okay, I fixed it:

God knows you are going to choose A if you are going to choose A
God knows you are going to choose B if you are going to choose B
God knows you are going to choose C if you are going to choose C
It's more accurate to say:
If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).
It's ALSO accurate to say:
If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't be able to choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't be able to choose A or B).
 
Top