What causes people to choose what they choose?

[KWED]

Uhhh .. no .. That's contradictory.
If C knows what happens in the future, it makes no sense to talk about him changing it. There IS only one series of events called the future. Nobody knows what they are, of course .. except for C you suggest.


You seem to have a mental block about the concept of "being fixed". Naturally, if somebody has traveled to the future, they KNOW what events are going to take place.
That series of events is fixed .. fixed by our choices.

You are merely confusing yourself.
The future is a series of fixed events. The only reason you envisage them to be unfixed, is because we don't know what they are. Is that so difficult to understand?

Do you think that dua can change the outcome of an event?

 

[blü 2]

I thought as much..
..so for you it is purely hypothetical. It is not possible for a deity to be able to know our future choices. End of !

Non sequitur. That's my personal understanding, but not the theological view, which Augustine expressed around 500 CE as "anni tui omnes simul stant" ─ "all your [God's] years exist at once". The point is still that God is billed as omniscient, so the past and the future may or may not exist "somewhere" but omniscience will still be aware of everything that will ever happen, every state of affairs that will ever exist, on the wavecrest.

And everything that ever happens, good or bad, known or unknown, will still always necessarily be exactly as God intended it to be when [he] made the universe some 14 bn years back.

Unless, of course, [he]'s NOT omnipotent omniscient perfect.

 

[blü 2]

Isa 45:7 is not talking about moral evil

I don't think that argument's available. The Hebrew word translated as 'evil is raʿ which is the stock-standard word for 'evil' throughout the bible.

it is talking about suffering and anyway it is speaking specifically to Israel and what happened to them in that land

So with a god who's omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and made the universe exactly as pleased [him], where else does evil come from? And against that background, don't blame humans ─ God designed their nature entirely and perfectly saw all the outcomes 14 bn years or so ago.

Evil can't exist without God's creating it. Nothing can.

Unless, as I keep saying, God is NOT omnipotent omniscient perfect.

 

[KWED]

I did not suggest this phrase. I merely agreed that the future is fixed.

FIXED BY OUR CHOICES..

The problem that you keep running into is that we have not made those choices until we make them.

So, when I go for a run tomorrow my choice of what to wear will depend on the weather. I do not know what the weather will be like so I have not yet decided. Therefore that future cannot have been fixed by my choice because I haven't yet chosen. Therefore the future cannot be fixed by our choices.
And yet, if I asked god now what I will wear tomorrow, he will be able to tell me with absolute, infallible certainty.

So if the future is fixed (which you claim it is), it must be fixed by something else.

You see, your argument relies on circular logic. By "the future", what we are actually talking about is "our choices". So, you are claiming that "our choices" are fixed by "our choices", and I'm sure even you can spot the problem there.

 

[KWED]

That is just an assertion.

Not really. It is a logical deduction inferred from the claims made about god by religion.

Do you believe it is possible that the future can be known, regardless of whether God exists?

Some events can be predicted with high levels of certainty, but not where there are possible variables.

 

[KWED]

I thought as much..
..so for you it is purely hypothetical. It is not possible for a deity to be able to know our future choices. End of !

Do you still not get it?
One can legitimately assume the position of one's interlocutor in order to demonstrate the flaw in their argument.
One's personal position is irrelevant in that context.

 

[Brian2]

So your resolution to the "married bachelor" paradox would be "A man can be both married and a bachelor at the same time".
Yeah that makes sense.

I don't know the paradox but a man cannot be both married and a bachelor at the same time imo.
That sounds like it has nothing to do with God knowing what we will do and whether that means that we cannot choose whatever we like.
What does not make sense is to say that God knows what we will choose, so we cannot choose.

 

[Brian2]

Omniscience means that he could conceive any and every possible universe.
Omniscience means that he knows everything about any of those conceivable universes.
Omnipotence means that he could have created any universe that he could conceive.
He chose to create this one.

Do you disagree with any of those statements?

I agree with those statements.
But if you agree with those statement it means that you think that God knowing the future does not limit His ability to choose even though it means He cannot choose anything else.
But for some strange reason it limits our ability to choose.

 

[ppp]

I agree with those statements.

Cool.

But if you agree with those statement it means that you think that God knowing the future does not limit His ability to choose...

I am a little confused by that sentence. As I understand the concept of a being unbound by time that all moments would be the present for God. When he creates a universe, he is not doing so limited by a sequential perception, but all of a simultaneous (to him) piece. He is knowingly (omniscient) choosing all the moments at the point of creation. No?

...even though it means He cannot choose anything else.

That phrase confuses me. I don't think I said or implied anything like that.

But for some strange reason it limits our ability to choose.

I am saying that because God intentionally chose the specific universe containing the event of me eating a ham sandwich for lunch today, that it is God choosing that event. Not me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What does not make sense is to say that God knows what we will choose, so we cannot choose.

That's right. It is a logical fallacy.

Many people intuitively think that, because of their perception of "God knowing your choice before you make it" is not a rational belief.

However, that is mixing up 2 different issues.
Given it is possible for God to know our choices beforehand, that means that the future is still determined by our choices as per usual.

 

[KWED]

I don't know the paradox but a man cannot be both married and a bachelor at the same time imo.
That sounds like it has nothing to do with God knowing what we will do and whether that means that we cannot choose whatever we like.

In response to "Our choices cannot both be fixed, and changeable. This is a logical contradiction."
You said...
"Both are true".

What does not make sense is to say that God knows what we will choose, so we cannot choose.

The actual argument is... "God knows what we will choose, so we cannot choose any other option, what we choose is made inevitable by god's infallible foreknowledge".
This effectively negates free will as at the moment of making the "choice", there is only one possible outcome.

 

[Nimos]

I am going to say this one more time and hopefully only one more time.

God knowing what the color is does not affect you in any way because you can never know what God knows.

You can choose the color of the car and you do this by a well thought out process of what you like and don't like etc.
You are going to choose the color God knows you will choose, NOT because God knows what color you are going to choose but because you chose it. What God knows in NO WAY affects your ability to choose.

If you chose a red car God would have always known you would choose a red car.
If you chose a blue car God would have always known you would choose a blue car.
If you chose a green car God would have always known you would choose a green car.
If you chose a purple car God would have always known you would choose a purple car.

Whatever color of car you choose will be the color car that God has always known you would choose because what God knows is IDENTICAL with what you will choose.

You can make more than one choice, but whatever choice you make will be the ONE CHOICE that God has always known you would make.

Im sorry Trailblazer but you get it backwards, you even confirmed this several times in what you write.

You said "God knows everything at creation"

Therefore presenting this as if we have a choice is simply not correct, you even confirm it in the example as well:
If you chose a red car God would have always known you would choose a red car.
If you chose a blue car God would have always known you would choose a blue car.
If you chose a green car God would have always known you would choose a green car.
If you chose a purple car God would have always known you would choose a purple car.

God knows you before you are born, before you are even old enough to buy the car and he knows which of these colors car you will buy, as you yourself write.

Therefore the correct way to write it is like this:
You chose a blue car because God have always known you would choose a blue car.

You never make the choice it will be blue!! If it were any other color, lets say red, the line would be.
You chose a red car because God have always known you would choose a red car.

If God knows the future and have always known it, then there is only one option.

To put it in a timeline:

1. God knows everything
2. You are born
3. You grow up
4. You buy a blue car (Because God knows you will do that)

 

[Nimos]

Uhhh .. no .. That's contradictory.
If C knows what happens in the future, it makes no sense to talk about him changing it. There IS only one series of events called the future. Nobody knows what they are, of course .. except for C you suggest.

Agree, as I wrote at the end of the last post, if anyone knows the future to perfection, there can't be free will for anyone.

 

[KWED]

That's right. It is a logical fallacy.

Oh is it? And what "logical fallacy" is that?
Are you sure you don't mean... "That's right, I agree with you"?

Many people intuitively think that, because of their perception of "God knowing your choice before you make it" is not a rational belief.

How is that "not rational".

Tomorrow I will decide between A and B. Today I have not made that choice.
If I asked god today what I will choose tomorrow, he will know.
Therefore "god knows my choice before I made it".

Given it is possible for God to know our choices beforehand, that means that the future is still determined by our choices as per usual.

That isn't an explanation. It is merely a non sequitur.
If our "choice" is limited to only one possible outcome (as you have accepted) then the future has already been determined before we make that choice.

 

[Tiberius]

It's ALSO accurate to say:
If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't be able to choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't be able to choose A or B).

And there you have proved my point for me.

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't be able to choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't be able to choose A or B).

The bits I highlighted in red are the bits that show we have no free will, since we are not able to choose anything else.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..if anyone knows the future to perfection, there can't be free will for anyone.

No .. you ignored the rest of my post.

"Naturally, if somebody has traveled to the future, they KNOW what events are going to take place.
That series of events is fixed .. fixed by our choices."

 

[viole]

Even this claim is suspect because there may not even be a "beyond space and time".

Of course it is suspect. But theists believe there is, so when they claim that God can see all events that punctuate spacetime at once, how does that kill the freedom of my will? And we are not addressing cosmology here.

how is that different from me watching things that happened in location of spacetime i can access? For instance, my past? I cannot change my past, either, but that does not entail I was not free to choose. And, according to theists, all that happened, and will ever happen, is in God’s past, so to speak. Unchangeable. And if I cannot infer lack of past freedom on account of me being unable to change the past, then you cannot infer lack of freedom because God cannot, or does not want to, change the whole set of events taking place in spacetime.

So, again, how is it really different from me watching a documentary of young Hitler? How can I infer, from me knowing exactly what Hitler would do in the subsequent years, that his will was not free?

There is simply no logical inference that starts with the premise “i know what you will be choosing”, to “ergo you were not free to choose”. It is like saying “God knows what a spin measurement will give, ergo the results of quantum measurements are not random”. It is simply a non sequitur.

So, the problem for the theist is not necessarily the freedom of the choice, but the entailment of a strict determinism, for what concerns the final destination of souls, that the position entails. If God knows it all, then I do not see other escape but assume predestination, and the morally questionable act of creation that will doom so many while looking ultimately pointless.

another big problem for the theist is that, even if we have free choice, we have some natural predisposition to choose things that are good for us. And recoil at a choice that might hurt us. If you are on top of the empire state building and need to buy something downstairs, i bet you will never choose to jump from it to save time. So, we have natural constraints when it comes to preventing us getting hurt. And nobody would say we are like robots, for having that sort of natural constraints preventing us to fully be able to choose.

Then, Why didn’t He create similar constraints against sin? Why is it so easy to sin even if it is supposed to be so bad for us?

ciao

- viole

 

[KWED]

Of course it is suspect. But theists believe there is, so when they claim that God can see all events that punctuate spacetime at once, how does that kill the freedom of my will?

This has already been addressed at great length on here, but here goes again...

In your universe, subject to linear time, you have to choose between A and B at time T.
At T-1 you have not made that choice.
However, at T-1 god knows infallibly that you will choose A at time T.
So at Time T, can you choose B?
Obviously not, or it would render god fallible as his knowledge would be wrong.
Therefore god's infallible omniscient restrict free will.

how is that different from me watching things that happened in location of spacetime i can access? For instance, my past? I cannot change my past, either, but that does not entail I was not free to choose.

It does if that past choice was inevitable or predetermined.

And, according to theists, all that happened, and will ever happen, is in God’s past, so to speak. Unchangeable.

Indeed. The outcome of every event is known and fixed before the universe even existed.

And if I cannot infer lack of past freedom on account of me being unable to change the past, then you cannot infer lack of freedom because God cannot, or does not want to, change the whole set of events taking place in spacetime.

You've lost me there.

So, again, how is it really different from me watching a documentary of young Hitler? How can I infer, from me knowing exactly what Hitler would do in the subsequent years, that his will was not free?

Interestingly, this analogy supports a lack of free will. In this scenario, you watching the film is god's infallible omniscience (inerrant knowledge of what will happen). So, in the film, can Hitler decide to not annexe the Sudetenland?

There is simply no logical inference that starts with the premise “i know what you will be choosing”, to “ergo you were not free to choose”.

That is clearly not the case. Clerics and philosophers have been struggling with the omniscience/free will paradox for centuries. You not understanding a problem doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

It is like saying “God knows what a spin measurement will give, ergo the results of quantum measurements are not random”. It is simply a non sequitur.

All you are saying there is "I disagree with your conclusion". It is not an actual argument against my conclusion because if god's infallible omniscience does fix events, then the conclusion is valid.

 

[Sheldon]

Both are true but it is relative. We are free to choose. That is our pov.
God knows what we will choose. That is God's pov.
Both these pov not only appear to be true but both are true.
God knows what we will freely choose.

Here we go again, lets say I have two choices A and B, and your deity knows which one I will make before I perceive making it, can I choose other than what this deity knows I will choose, making that deity wrong about my choice?

Check mate...

 

[Sheldon]

I do not believe that the future is set in stone. I believe that God knows everything that will happen in the future, but it has not happened in this world until it actually happens.
As I said, an event only becomes set in stone once it has occurred.

So if I had two choices A and B, and your deity knows which one I will choose before I perceive choosing it, am I free to choose the other, and make your deity wrong, or can I only choose the one your deity knows I will choose?

If it's the former, then your deity couldn't have known exactly what I will choose, before I perceive choosing it, and if it's the latter then my perception of a choice would have to be an illusion, and any notion of free will is negated.

Your explanation still has a rational contradiction in it. Just like @muhammad_isa's has.