What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Truthseeker]

MO, just choices. Our brain adds feelings of right and wrong as a kind of feedback system.
Some of it genetic, some of it cultural programming.

My theory is that choices are at the intersection of our physical being, cultural being and spiritual being. We choose in shades of grey between them. Your mileage may vary as my old friend Dale Lehman would say.

 

[Truthseeker]

I just get tired of arguing as it serves no purpose and it causes disharmony.

Hear, hear.

 

[Truthseeker]

No, it is not your fault. It takes two to tango, as my husband always says.

I love this answer.

 

[blü 2]

Yes God foresaw what would happen, including the evil and how to fix that and the overwhelming good in the long term and decided it was worth it to create a universe and beings who were moral beings and could decide to do things that He did not want them to do.
There can only be what God foresaw but you do not know what He intended because you have not seen the whole story.

[He]'s omniscient and omnipotent and perfect. [He] knew in advance in perfect detail every consequence of [his] act of creation. [He] performed the causative act in perfect knowledge of the consequences. If [he] had wanted even the tiniest detail to be different, [he] would have omnipotently and effortlessly adjusted [his] creation. But [he] didn't.

Of course, as I said, if [he]'s not omnipotent omniscient perfect, then that doesn't apply.

 

[muhammad_isa]

.. Only the choice of C matters, because he is the one that knows the future and have the capability to change it.

Uhhh .. no .. That's contradictory.
If C knows what happens in the future, it makes no sense to talk about him changing it. There IS only one series of events called the future. Nobody knows what they are, of course .. except for C you suggest.

Because it would eventually mean that C's future is fixed as well. Because as you said yourself, they would also know their own future..

You seem to have a mental block about the concept of "being fixed". Naturally, if somebody has traveled to the future, they KNOW what events are going to take place.
That series of events is fixed .. fixed by our choices.

You are merely confusing yourself.
The future is a series of fixed events. The only reason you envisage them to be unfixed, is because we don't know what they are. Is that so difficult to understand?

 

[Brian2]

[He]'s omniscient and omnipotent and perfect. [He] knew in advance in perfect detail every consequence of [his] act of creation. [He] performed the causative act in perfect knowledge of the consequences. If [he] had wanted even the tiniest detail to be different, [he] would have omnipotently and effortlessly adjusted [his] creation. But [he] didn't.

Of course, as I said, if [he]'s not omnipotent omniscient perfect, then that doesn't apply.

Your answer assumes that an adjustment to His creation would stop parts of His creation from doing evil things.
The word "causative" in your answer should only mean that God caused the creation, not that God caused people to choose to do evil.
Being omnipotent, omniscient and perfect that means that He created things just right for His desired outcome, even if you can't see it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@muhammad_isa stated unequivocally that the FUTURE is set in stone, ipso facto it cannot be changed.

I did not suggest this phrase. I merely agreed that the future is fixed.

FIXED BY OUR CHOICES.

Furthermore, when replying to @Trailblazer , it is irrelevant to keep making comments about me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..a deity perfectly knew and intended everything that would ever happen if [he] created the universe as it is

That is just an assertion.
Do you believe it is possible that the future can be known, regardless of whether God exists?

 

[ppp]

I have heard how omniscience puts the nail in the freewill coffin but how does it work with omnipotence?

Under the hypothetical where God exists and is both omnipotent and omniscient --

• This universe is necessarily composed of all of the objects and events that occur within it over its duration.
• God could have chosen to create any universe he wanted.
• Which means that he purposely and knowing chose to create this specific universe
• Which means that he purposely and knowing chose to create each and every one of said objects and events.
• The necessary conclusion is that when Bob thinks he chooses to eat a ham sandwich for lunch tomorrow, that the choice was really made by God at the point that he created all of said objects and events.

 

[Brian2]

Under the hypothetical where God exists and is both omnipotent and omniscient --

• This universe is necessarily composed of all of the objects and events that occur within it over its duration.
• God could have chosen to create any universe he wanted.
• Which means that he purposely and knowing chose to create this specific universe
• Which means that he purposely and knowing chose to create each and every one of said objects and events.
• The necessary conclusion is that when Bob thinks he chooses to eat a ham sandwich for lunch tomorrow, that the choice was really made by God at the point that he created all of said objects and events.

Why does omnipotent meant that God created all the events that happened? That does not make sense to me.
I think you are assuming that the omnipotence of God means that nobody else has any power to do anything,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sort of like assuming no free will and that we are dolls that God is moving around. But that is not what omnipotent means.

 

[blü 2]

Your answer assumes that an adjustment to His creation would stop parts of His creation from doing evil things.

Yes. If you were omnipotent, you could do exactly that yourself. Therefore, as Isaiah 45:7 says, evil must originate with God because there's nowhere else it could come from.

The word "causative" in your answer should only mean that God caused the creation, not that God caused people to choose to do evil.

If God is omnipotent omniscient perfect then it means exactly that. See Isaiah again. Humans are only evil because of that aspect, that potential, of their nature, and their nature was determined by the omni God.

Being omnipotent, omniscient and perfect that means that He created things just right for His desired outcome, even if you can't see it.

That may be so, but [he]'s the cause of all the evil along the way. Or it may not be so ─ maybe [he] intended something else entirely.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

I'm not sure we often actually choose. It seems to me that most of the time, our so-called choices are predetermined by various factors.

The biggest factor is whether the idea is presented to us by someone we trust. Most people have the religious beliefs they hold because they trusted their parents growing up, and the good friends in their religious community.

The next biggest factor is probably whether the idea is beneficial to us. This is why for example, the rich believe that they deserve their money, and that the poor have basically brought poverty upon themselves -- such a belief enables them to enjoy their wealth without guilt.

 

[blü 2]

That is just an assertion.

No, it's a strict and ineluctable consequence of being an omni God.

Do you believe it is possible that the future can be known, regardless of whether God exists?

No, not in any firm way, though certain kinds of predictions about nature are possible, days and orbits for instance, and weather forecasting has come a long way. Polls sometimes get people right, sometimes miss (ask Hilary). After much thought, I see NOW as the foam on a breaker heading onwards, and the only place in time that ever exists, with the future nonexistent and never predictable perfectly but on some things serviceably, and the past nonexistent except in memory and the inferences from things existing in the present ─ though other views are possible.

But I'm not omnipotent, omniscient or even perfect.

 

[viole]

I am sure glad to see that some atheists think logically.

That does not mean our will is free. Of course. Only that that argument is a bit weak.

Actually, it could be both, free and not free, depending on the ontological level. The problem is that people use sometimes the same epistemic tools for different ontologies. Like trying to analyze Leonardo art by studying the pixel distribution of the Mona Lisa.

it is, for instance, possible to make a workable case for free will, even under the premises of a fully naturalistic mind and strict determinism.

ciao

- viole

 

[KWED]

Stick to the topic..
Assuming an omniscient God exists, what causes you to choose what you choose?

The "cause" is the absolute necessity of that one outcome happening.

 

[muhammad_isa]

.. After much thought, I see NOW as the foam on a breaker heading onwards, and the only place in time that ever exists, with the future nonexistent and never predictable perfectly..

I thought as much..
..so for you it is purely hypothetical. It is not possible for a deity to be able to know our future choices. End of !

 

[KWED]

Please stop your misquotes. I did not say that the future is fixed by a deity.

Who else has the power to fix the future?

 

[KWED]

Both are true but it is relative. We are free to choose. That is our pov.
God knows what we will choose. That is God's pov.
Both these pov not only appear to be true but both are true.
God knows what we will freely choose.

So your resolution to the "married bachelor" paradox would be "A man can be both married and a bachelor at the same time".
Yeah that makes sense.

 

[ppp]

Why does omnipotent meant that God created all the events that happened? That does not make sense to me.
I think you are assuming that the omnipotence of God means that nobody else has any power to do anything,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sort of like assuming no free will and that we are dolls that God is moving around. But that is not what omnipotent means.

Omniscience means that he could conceive any and every possible universe.
Omniscience means that he knows everything about any of those conceivable universes.
Omnipotence means that he could have created any universe that he could conceive.
He chose to create this one.

Do you disagree with any of those statements?

 

[Brian2]

Yes. If you were omnipotent, you could do exactly that yourself. Therefore, as Isaiah 45:7 says, evil must originate with God because there's nowhere else it could come from.

Isa 45:7 is not talking about moral evil, it is talking about suffering and anyway it is speaking specifically to Israel and what happened to them in that land and needs to be seen alongside Eccles 9:11
Eccles 9:11I saw something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; neither is the bread to the wise, nor the wealth to the intelligent, nor the favor to the skillful. For time and chance happen to all.

If God is omnipotent omniscient perfect then it means exactly that. See Isaiah again. Humans are only evil because of that aspect, that potential, of their nature, and their nature was determined by the omni God.

Yes their nature is determined by God and He knows that we will do evil, but it is our nature and our choice to do evil. To create us without that potential to do evil would be to create something else and not humans.
Hence a command not to eat from the tree in the garden. Moral beings need to exercise that ability.
So with what God wanted to create there would always be a potential for evil and it was up to us whether that potential was fulfilled.

That may be so, but [he]'s the cause of all the evil along the way. Or it may not be so ─ maybe [he] intended something else entirely.

No He is not the cause of all the evil, our moral choices, and the Bible does not say that.
His perfect will was that we would not sin, but He knew we would and prepared for that and it is working itself out and not completed yet. Then you might say that God was right and the end was worth the suffering along the way.